The Survival Hunter in WotLK - Page 126

Frostfox - EOD · 11/02/09, 2:48 PM

How does it compare to the Marks spec??? Is changing back to Survival a better option with the Tier 9 gear??? And if so, still need to know which points to drop to add to the Improved Stings.... Any suggestions there????

Hagen · 11/03/09, 3:46 AM

About where to cut the points for Improved Stings: With the help of the DPS analyzer I chose to take one point from Expose Weakness and two out of Resourcefulness. This leaves me with the best DPS (depending on the DPS analyzer) and I keep bringing Replenishment when it's needed.

KraxisSingular · 11/11/09, 11:55 AM

Interesting change for Assassination Rogues. Murder will be a flat 4% damage increase to avoid locking too many bosses out of in ICC.

Cound this potentially count for Imp Tracking? I still remember Ulduar and the non-trivial amount of bosses that didn't fall under that talent (Mechanicals and Unknown). And unlike Murder all three mains specs rely on Imp Tracking. Maybe Blizzard is beginning an early outphasing of such talents (Crusade cound be considered as well, but since it apply to far less types it can be considered an extra bonus, rather than a specific requirement).

But then again, it doesn't look like ICC will feature untrackable bosses.

alienangel · 11/11/09, 1:12 PM

Imp Tracking allows bonus damage against several more types of creatures than current Murder does though, so it's much less restrictive of encounter design - basically blizzard is only forced to make the hunter talent not work when they have a compelling reason to make a boss Unspecified or Mechanical. Murder on the other hand gets made useless whenever something is undead, demonic, elemental, which are probably a lot more common choices for boss types.

Personally I'm hoping they put some Demon bosses back in so I can use my stash of Demonslaying Elixirs, which AFAIK are still better than level 80 elixirs and flasks. They've managed to avoid putting any in level 80 raids

sefren · 11/11/09, 2:43 PM

Jaraxxus in ToC is demon boss, the Elixirs of Demon Slaying still work on him.

KraxisSingular · 11/11/09, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

Imp Tracking allows bonus damage against several more types of creatures than current Murder does though, so it's much less restrictive of encounter design - basically blizzard is only forced to make the hunter talent not work when they have a compelling reason to make a boss Unspecified or Mechanical. Murder on the other hand gets made useless whenever something is undead, demonic, elemental, which are probably a lot more common choices for boss types.

Personally I'm hoping they put some Demon bosses back in so I can use my stash of Demonslaying Elixirs, which AFAIK are still better than level 80 elixirs and flasks. They've managed to avoid putting any in level 80 raids

Nevertheless, having such important talents knocked out is not what I would consider very impressive. And I believe that Blizzard, with the incoming Cata changes to talents, are beginning to see it too.
I actually consider Imp Tracking to be considerably worse than Murder in this regard, despite affecting more targets. The relative bonus is about the same (4% and 4.2ish%, remember the pet here), yet Imp Tracking is 5 points with no real viable options for all 5 points. At least Murder is 2 points, which can all be placed elsewhere. And Crusade is a basic 1% talent line with an extra bonus so I won't get into that one.

I guess I'm rambling, especially considering that ICC in all will have completely trackable bosses, unless bosses like Sindragosa or one of the final wingbosses are Unknown. But I find it positive that they actually take such considerations in mind now. Remember for Murder the same problem was present in Naxx, and to a considerable extent in Ulduar too. So I'm sitting here hoping.

alienangel · 11/11/09, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by sefren

Jaraxxus in ToC is demon boss, the Elixirs of Demon Slaying still work on him.

I suppose I should have said important bosses. Jaraxxus is barely worth flasking for currently since DPS on him (as opposed to his portals) isn't a barrier to killing him. Twins/Hodir/Thorim/Anub would be IMO more the sort of boss I'd like to use demonslaying elixirs on.

edit: come to think of it, I'm not sure what type of mob Jaraxxus' portals are

KraxisSingular · 11/12/09, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by alienangel

I suppose I should have said important bosses. Jaraxxus is barely worth flasking for currently since DPS on him (as opposed to his portals) isn't a barrier to killing him. Twins/Hodir/Thorim/Anub would be IMO more the sort of boss I'd like to use demonslaying elixirs on.

edit: come to think of it, I'm not sure what type of mob Jaraxxus' portals are

Unknown... Or Uncategorized as the name really is. Nether Portal. So no Demonslaying on them or various +damage talents.

DerailedThread · 11/12/09, 2:27 PM

Is resourcefulness talent showing up as minus dps for anyone else when you get 1/3? I'm not sure what's up. Even with 3 points, the most dps gain i see is around 5.

chucknourish · 11/14/09, 4:43 AM

Hello fellow Community,

I have been reading this forums for ages and I decided to make the next step and create an account.
However im not extraordinary at maths, so i cant really help on the thinktank discussions but i wanted to share a problem I encountered since i got DeathsVerdict.

When both of my trinkets procc, i have 83,91% Crit +4%EW(glyph) +15%ST = 103%Crit.
Now, i think it would be time to get EW to 1/3 and i would have a point leftover but whatever i do in the spreadsheets leaves me with a dps loss at the end.

1/5 iAoTH
1/3 Stings
1/2 RF

So i was wondering if anyone else has got experience and workarounds to this problem.

Ty in advance chuck

jessequach · 11/14/09, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by chucknourish

Hello fellow Community,

I have been reading this forums for ages and I decided to make the next step and create an account.
However im not extraordinary at maths, so i cant really help on the thinktank discussions but i wanted to share a problem I encountered since i got DeathsVerdict.

When both of my trinkets procc, i have 83,91% Crit +4%EW(glyph) +15%ST = 103%Crit.
Now, i think it would be time to get EW to 1/3 and i would have a point leftover but whatever i do in the spreadsheets leaves me with a dps loss at the end.

1/5 iAoTH
1/3 Stings
1/2 RF

So i was wondering if anyone else has got experience and workarounds to this problem.

Ty in advance chuck

I found great results with spec 1/18/52 when my crit was around 46% on the character sheet. You can try my spec to see if its a dps increase for you. If you want a more detail spec info my toon name is shipuu on cho'gall. I would do a armory link, but currenty on a phone.

Krushing · 11/24/09, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by jessequach

I found great results with spec 1/18/52 when my crit was around 46% on the character sheet. You can try my spec to see if its a dps increase for you. If you want a more detail spec info my toon name is shipuu on cho'gall. I would do a armory link, but currenty on a phone.

Actually, I would suggest looking at the spreadsheet and using my 0/18/53. I tried the 1/18/52 and it was almost a 50 dps loss for me. You are slightly better geared than myself, but you should look and see if that helps you at all.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Juneko · 11/30/09, 4:28 PM

My spreadsheet tells me that going with 5/5 iaoth gives more dps than going with imp stings. The numbers you get might be inaccurate though, because it says 0/3 thrill of the hunt is a 200 dps loss. If I never run out of mana it's a 0 dps loss. I keep a secondary spec with replenishment though, I have to use it in 10 mans sometimes.

davepoobond · 11/30/09, 7:01 PM

Now, what I'm thinking may have already answered the question that I'm about to ask, but I'll ask anyway because it has come up:

Why would someone think that the Serpent Sting glyph would be a better choice for a survival hunter than Glyph of Explosive Shot?

My gut feeling tells me that Glyph of Explosive Shot is far and away the best glyph to use over Serpent Sting since all that Serpent Sting offers a Survival hunter is 2 more ticks of Serpent Sting, mana savings, and "cooldown" room. However, someone appears to be convinced that Serpent Sting, paired with glyph of Steady Shot is the best DPS.

Even with the 2 set T9 and specced into 3/3 Improved Stings, I still can't see 2 more ticks being beneficial, espeically when you can just refresh it before it falls off.

Any thoughts?

Taoofss · 11/30/09, 7:25 PM

Originally Posted by davepoobond

Now, what I'm thinking may have already answered the question that I'm about to ask, but I'll ask anyway because it has come up:

Why would someone think that the Serpent Sting glyph would be a better choice for a survival hunter than Glyph of Explosive Shot?

My gut feeling tells me that Glyph of Explosive Shot is far and away the best glyph to use over Serpent Sting since all that Serpent Sting offers a Survival hunter is 2 more ticks of Serpent Sting, mana savings, and "cooldown" room. However, someone appears to be convinced that Serpent Sting, paired with glyph of Steady Shot is the best DPS.

Even with the 2 set T9 and specced into 3/3 Improved Stings, I still can't see 2 more ticks being beneficial, espeically when you can just refresh it before it falls off.

Any thoughts?

So your argument is: "X is better then Y, because I have a gut feeling it is." Sorry but no numbers+no math=not buying it.

davepoobond · 11/30/09, 7:33 PM

Originally Posted by Taoofss

So your argument is: "X is better then Y, because I have a gut feeling it is." Sorry but no numbers+no math=not buying it.

My "argument" isn't as simple as you're making it.

4% extra crit on Explosive Shot is just that, 4% extra crit. 6 seconds more of serpent sting is 2 ticks, and I know its already been discussed before that all that offers for a Survival hunter is the freedom of extra GCD every so often of refreshing the serpent sting. Its just a modification of the duration of the dot, it doesn't modify the damage done or its ability to crit.

I haven't seen anywhere in this thread that says Serpent Sting Glyph > Explosive Shot Glyph. And by what you seem to imply is saying that what the other person is saying is true as well, and I'd like to know what you actually think about that and why you would think that way. He says its "widely accepted" as well, and I'm just not seeing anything like that here.

Lilbitters · 11/30/09, 9:31 PM

Originally Posted by davepoobond

Its just a modification of the duration of the dot, it doesn't modify the damage done or its ability to crit.

That's incorrect. The [Glyph of Serpent Sting] doesn't change the damage done per tick, it adds 2 additional ticks.

Ex. A
Unglyphed Serpent Sting ticks (assuming no 2 piece T9)
0:03 - 1,000 damage
0:06 - 1,000 damage
0:09 - 1,000 damage
0:12 - 1,000 damage
0:15 - 1,000 damage
------------------------
Total - 5,000 damage

Ex. B
Glyphed Serpent Sting ticks (assuming no 2 piece T9)
0:03 - 1,000 damage
0:06 - 1,000 damage
0:09 - 1,000 damage
0:12 - 1,000 damage
0:15 - 1,000 damage
0:18 - 1,000 damage
0:21 - 1,000 damage
------------------------
Total - 7,000 damage

That's why the glyph is so important to MM DPS, it calculates the Chimera Shot -Serpent damage based on total damage of the sting, otherwise it wouldn't provide a DPS increase.

The problem with [Glyph of Explosive Shot] is that SV critical strike rating is extremely high, and with procs, it's unlikely to notice much of a difference to your overall ticks of Explosive Shot. In addition to that, to see the actual damage gain of Explosive Shot's 4% more crit, you would have to take the difference in damage of crit vs. non-crit average ticks and multiply that by 4%.

The additional benefit of the [Glyph of Serpent Sting] is when you can apply stings to the offtargets as well, especially when the ticks can crit.

davepoobond · 11/30/09, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Lilbitters

That's incorrect. The [Glyph of Serpent Sting] doesn't change the damage done per tick, it adds 2 additional ticks.

Ex. A
Unglyphed Serpent Sting ticks (assuming no 2 piece T9)
0:03 - 1,000 damage
0:06 - 1,000 damage
0:09 - 1,000 damage
0:12 - 1,000 damage
0:15 - 1,000 damage
------------------------
Total - 5,000 damage

Ex. B
Glyphed Serpent Sting ticks (assuming no 2 piece T9)
0:03 - 1,000 damage
0:06 - 1,000 damage
0:09 - 1,000 damage
0:12 - 1,000 damage
0:15 - 1,000 damage
0:18 - 1,000 damage
0:21 - 1,000 damage
------------------------
Total - 7,000 damage

That's why the glyph is so important to MM DPS, it calculates the Chimera Shot -Serpent damage based on total damage of the sting, otherwise it wouldn't provide a DPS increase. I also know that it is very important for MM -- this is in regards to SURVIVAL dps. It is a no-brainer for MM, obviously.

The problem with [Glyph of Explosive Shot] is that SV critical strike rating is extremely high, and with procs, it's unlikely to notice much of a difference to your overall ticks of Explosive Shot. In addition to that, to see the actual damage gain of Explosive Shot's 4% more crit, you would have to take the difference in damage of crit vs. non-crit average ticks and multiply that by 4%.

The additional benefit of the [Glyph of Serpent Sting] is when you can apply stings to the offtargets as well, especially when the ticks can crit.

Yes, there is more damage done per APPLICATION of the dot, but if you constantly have serpent sting up with no downtime without the glyph, you are not dealing more damage with serpent sting itself. Of course it is a no-brainer for MM, but this is in regards to Survival DPS.

Applying serpent sting to multiple targets is an extra benefit, not something that is typically considered when trying to achieve single target dps. You could Explosive Shot 3 different targets when you have LnL going on, and see the same concept in play there as well, but in favor for the Explosive Shot glyph.

Unless you hit 100% or more with the crit rate on your Explosive Shot, of course the benefit of switching out the glyph for something is proven, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't believe that is practically obtainable to have 100% crit rate 100% of the time at the current typical gearing level of most players at this time.

rokabud · 11/30/09, 10:29 PM

You get more globals to spend on other shots by having to reapply ssting less often.

Cipherr · 12/01/09, 12:03 AM

Dave like the above poster I think the point is that using SS gains you globals to use on other shots. Sometimes those globals will be spent on Steadyshots which will have a lower prio than serpent, however some of those globals will still always be spent on higher prio shots, and as long as that is the case the glyph will be worth using.

If you however are judging its value directly in relation to the ES glyph thats a completely different matter in itself. Especially since a crit from an ES grants more than just its damage, it contributes to the uptime of expose weakness, hunting party and makes the overall shot cheaper through proccing TotH. And >.< @ using the same name on your gaf and ej account. Even the avatar is the same!

Lilbitters · 12/01/09, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by rokabud

You get more globals to spend on other shots by having to reapply ssting less often.

That's the point behind it, in the end, you get to shoot more Explosive Shots overall.

I checked spreadsheet numbers to see how Explosive Shot damage looks with the two glyph combinations.

Average damage from Explosive Shot tick:
With Serpent Sting Glyph - 5661
With Explosive Shot Glyph - 5798

So that's 137 damage per tick. At 3 ticks every 6 seconds averages out to 68.5 DPS gain from [Glyph of Explosive Shot].

Now with [Glyph of Serpent Sting], in 105 seconds you need Serpent Sting 5 times vs. 7 times without the glyph, saving you 2 GCDs.

With full raid buffs in this gearset my Steady Shot cooldown was at 1.52 seconds dealing an average 4899 damage.
Now in reality you would also gain Explosive Shots, Black Arrow, and Aimed Shots from these 2 additional GCDs, but for simplicity I'll just say they'll be Steady Shots.

Over 105 Seconds:
2 GCDs X 4899 = 9798 damage from the [Glyph of Serpent Sting]. ~93.3 DPS gain
105 seconds X 68.5 = 7192.5 damage from the [Glyph of Explosive Shot]. ~68.5 DPS gain

That's 24.8 DPS increase in favor of [Glyph of Serpent Sting] from this quick math. The spreadsheet has it as a 49.88 DPS increase in favor of [Glyph of Serpent Sting], but that would be attributed to the addition GCDs going occasionally to higher priority shots like Explosive Shot and Aimed Shot which I didn't calculate.

alienangel · 12/01/09, 1:35 AM

While your points are fine Zierkka, I'm not seeing any reason to doubt the spreadsheet's ability to model both glyphs very well - there are many things the spreadsheet isn't amazing at modelling but comparing "more crit on ability A" to "fewer globals spent on ability B" is pretty cut and dry for the rotation test to do. So just use whichever glyph is better for you on the spreadsheet, additional theory craft isn't really needed on the subject.

MizarAlcor · 12/01/09, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Enova

For Survival, AP is usually significantly better than both haste and ArP. Although I have to be honest, burst haste can sometimes be useful as well. Your best bet is plugging your data in either the spreadsheet or Rivkah's dps tool (both of them already linked on these forums) and seeing which one helps your exact gear and talent combination the most.

I agree with this, but I don't think ArP is something that can be easily dismissed anymore as a surv hunter. For some reason, putting my gearset on spreadsheet is giving ArP's DPS contribution number which is only very slightly lower than Crit (lower than 0.01 DPS difference per point of Crit and ArP). As such, it is only basically lower than Agi, 2xAP (due to itemization), and almost similar to Crit. As a comparison, Haste's DPS contribution number is lower than even 1xAP.

Storytime · 12/01/09, 2:49 PM

Another point to consider in regards to the Serpent Sting glyph is the increased damage time for the Noxious Sting talent (1/2/3 % increased damage with attacks while target has a sting on them)

EDIT: added info on nox. Stings

MizarAlcor · 12/01/09, 3:43 PM

I didn't quite grasp the reason for Glyph of Serpent vs. ES debate. Isn't Glyph of Steady Shot the weakest link of the 3 survival glyph setups? (and as such the debate should be Glyph of SS vs ES)