If one manages to get the Deathbringer's Will trinket and is raiding as survival, is there any point where one should treat crit like ArP, meaning get to the pre-proc soft cap and simply allow the 600 crit proc to put you to 100%? Or is the proc for crit not often enough and the other stat you'd stack (Haste) so useless that it wouldn't be really viable.
I have Deathbringer's Will, and I do raid as survival with it. The crit proc is 1 of 3 procs with a 90 second internal cooldown. Which proc you get is completely random, you could get any given prov back to back or not at all. Based on this and the fact that you gain crit increase from your other talent's and items, depending on your gear; I would not set a soft cap to crit.
Question, there is a hunter in my guild who has about equal gear to me. Identical trinkets. The only difference is that he has about 10% haste more than I do, while I have about 5% more crit than he does. Our ArP is about the same (mine is slightly higher). He also has glyphed for Steady Shot instead of Explosive Shot and has one point in IAotH.
In raids, he consistently beats me by over 300 dps. After looking at recount, the main difference seems to be that he fires off about 30-50% more auto shots than I do over the course of each encounter.
I was under the impression that haste was not as valuable as crit. But his dps is making me rethink this. Does crit eventually start to have diminishing returns once you get to around 50%? The spreadsheet still seems to value crit over haste even at my 2% haste and 55% crit.
Edit: BTW, I know I'm not hit capped in the gear I'm using on Armory. I have a DW combo I switch to with Accuracy to bump me over the hit cap when there's no Draenei in our group. Also, I am trying out MM right now since I thought it might fit my stat choices better.
Question, there is a hunter in my guild who has about equal gear to me. Identical trinkets. The only difference is that he has about 10% haste more than I do, while I have about 5% more crit than he does. Our ArP is about the same (mine is slightly higher). He also has glyphed for Steady Shot instead of Explosive Shot and has one point in IAotH.
In raids, he consistently beats me by over 300 dps. After looking at recount, the main difference seems to be that he fires off about 30-50% more auto shots than I do over the course of each encounter.
I was under the impression that haste was not as valuable as crit. But his dps is making me rethink this. Does crit eventually start to have diminishing returns once you get to around 50%? The spreadsheet still seems to value crit over haste even at my 2% haste and 55% crit.
Edit: BTW, I know I'm not hit capped in the gear I'm using on Armory. I have a DW combo I switch to with Accuracy to bump me over the hit cap when there's no Draenei in our group. Also, I am trying out MM right now since I thought it might fit my stat choices better.
One thing I found going SV is that after a certain amount of crit the explosive shot glyph simply isn't worth it. Steady Shot provides more damage. If you look at all the top dps builds, they all have replaced explosive with steady shot.
One thing I found going SV is that after a certain amount of crit the explosive shot glyph simply isn't worth it. Steady Shot provides more damage. If you look at all the top dps builds, they all have replaced explosive with steady shot.
Yes after reading the last few pages I am definitely going to do that. I might also drop a point in Hunting Party to get IAotH.
In raids, he consistently beats me by over 300 dps. After looking at recount, the main difference seems to be that he fires off about 30-50% more auto shots than I do over the course of each encounter.
30-50% more auto's implies he runs less to me and is not down to haste solely. Try to reduce the ammount you have to move or even stopping every 2 secs or so to allow an auto to shoot, something i still am trying to make my self do.
But how much crit ends up being enough? As I run a few heroics on the side I've removed the Explosive Shot glyph for the Explosive Trap one (and the DPS is truly brutal in heroics, I've not had the chance to really try it in raids yet it being Christmas and all).
I reasoned that 4% more or less wouldn't break or make my DPS (though the spreadsheet shows a 62 DPS loss if I remove it, albeit it does not calculate the Explosive Trap increase, even if I'd not use it on bosses).
That said screw the trap glyph for raids since in raids even trash can cause insta-gibbing if we ge too close to a cleave, Steady Shot might be the thing even if it shows as -11% DPS on the spreadsheet (to note I don't run it on max raid buffs).
Though back on the original question, when is enough crit enough? I have 48% (minus the several different procs like Greatness card that pushes crit to 52% and Master Tactician), had it at 50%, changed around my gear for more AP, currently 48% crit and 5.6k AP.
One thing I found going SV is that after a certain amount of crit the explosive shot glyph simply isn't worth it.
It's not the amount of crit that determines this choice. Whatever your crit % is, a 4% increase is a 4% increase. The damage gain you get from going from 40% to 44% is the same as from 50% to 54% if everything else stays the same.
The Steady Shot glyph depends on Serpent Sting being on your target, and keeping that up is more important than anything else.
For example, some numbers I got from a couple of logs:
With ES doing 2500 hit and 6000 crit damage, the damage gain from 4% crit is 140 on average per tick.
With SS doing 1800 hit and 4250 crit damage, the damage gain from 10% extra damage is 351 on average per shot, assuming Serpent is on 100% of the time and SS has a 70% crit rate.
With these numbers, if Serpent is on 40% of the time the damage gain from both is the same, on average per shot.
However, since Explosive Shot generates damage over 3 times more often than Steady Shot, the Glyph of Steady Shot is simply not worth it in the end: 3.3 x 140 = 462, which is even more than the SS glyph would give with 100% SS crit rate.
Edit for clarification: 'over 3 times more damage' comes from comparing the number of ES ticks with the number of SS shots on an average raid.
You sure did some calculations Thetalisker, but I don't think they matter. Of course the value of the SS glyph depends on the SrS uptime, but since SrS is above SS in our shot priority it should be almost always up when you fire SS (the only times it isn't is if it expires right when you cast your SS).
The spreadsheet should model the value of the glyphs quite accurately.
It's not the amount of crit that determines this choice. Whatever your crit % is, a 4% increase is a 4% increase. The damage gain you get from going from 40% to 44% is the same as from 50% to 54% if everything else stays the same.
The Steady Shot glyph depends on Serpent Sting being on your target, and keeping that up is more important than anything else.
For example, some numbers I got from a couple of logs:
With ES doing 2500 hit and 6000 crit damage, the damage gain from 4% crit is 140 on average per tick.
With SS doing 1800 hit and 4250 crit damage, the damage gain from 10% extra damage is 351 on average per shot, assuming Serpent is on 100% of the time and SS has a 70% crit rate.
With these numbers, if Serpent is on 40% of the time the damage gain from both is the same, on average per shot.
However, since Explosive Shot generates damage over 3 times more often than Steady Shot, the Glyph of Steady Shot is simply not worth it in the end: 3.3 x 140 = 462, which is even more than the SS glyph would give with 100% SS crit rate.
Edit for clarification: 'over 3 times more damage' comes from comparing the number of ES ticks with the number of SS shots on an average raid.
I think this has been discussed in the past, however, I'll explain it again.
For example
If you have 10% crit and put on the ES glyph you have 14% crit for ES. This is a 25% increase in your crit for ES relative to before.
If you have 40% crit and put on the ES glyph you have 44% crit for ES. This is a 10% increase in your crit for ES relative to before.
If you have 80% crit and put on the ES glyph you have 84% crit for ES. This is a 5% increase in your crit for ES relative to before.
Then you look at the steady shot glyph, which is a flat 10% increase in damage.
After a certain amount of crit the flat damage outweighs the 4% crit.
Which is why top dps builds have been removing the ES glyph.
a) Which glyph is better is easily and accurately answered by the spreadsheet, since there's nothing complicated to model about either one
b) If you absolutely have to know why the Glyph of Steady Shot can beat out Glyph of ES more easily as gear gets better, it likely has a lot to do with the fact that "gear getting better" for the past 2 tiers means "gear has more ArP" - the relative value of 10% more StS damage compared to 4% more ES crits will be much more for a ICC hunter with 1100 ArP than a Naxx hunter with 150 ArP.
Do also keep in mind when comparing the glyphs that on any movement fight the first thing to get lost in the shuffle is steady shots. You'll likely be doing close to your maximum number of explosive shots on any fight, but steady will vary considerably depending on the type of fight. So if the difference in dps between the glyphs is small it's generally best to stick with explosive. If the gap becomes larger it may be worth switching.
I think this has been discussed in the past, however, I'll explain it again.
Seriously - put it in an Excel sheet and check it out. No matter what percentage you start with, the damage increase from 4% extra crit is exactly the same. I found it out when I wanted to see at which percentage this switch would be better, and I was surprised by it too - it seems illogical at the first, but if you think it through it does make sense.
Look at it this way - suppose you fire 100 shots, and half of them hit for 1000 damage, and the other half crit for 2000 damage. If you add 4% crit, you'd get 4 more shots that do an extra 1000 damage compared to before. Now start with 70% crits instead of 50% - still those 4% only means 4 shots doing 1000 extra damage each.
And yes, you're absolutely right that, relatively, your crit percentage will benefit more at a lower level, but the extra damage it gives you is the same.
When talking about replacing ES glyph everyone is only talking about SS glyph as a candidate replacement. My spreadsheet tells me that Aimed glyph would be the biggest dps upgrade to replace ES glyph with rather than SS, am I completely mistaken about something here?
AiS appears to be a damage gain only in a small window of latency, which the spreadsheet's default happens to fall into (150ms). I've tested this with +200 haste and the graph is the same, though the numbers are inflated.
SrS and ES Glyphs plus:
SrS and SS Glyphs plus:
About Kill Shot
This is a bit of a tangent, but on the topic of glyphs: I see lots of hunters glyph Kill Shot because their number gets bigger. Take caution against this, as it's probably our most misleading glyph.
There are fights where a 6 second reduction to the KS CD is clearly a fantastic usage of a glyph slot, like Yogg minus watchers, Anub ToGC25 and even Deathbringer Saurfang where there is plenty of time sub-20% to cast KS on CD and adds to handle or when you have add duty with mobs that need to die within 9-15s. Most others don’t take much advantage of that CD reduction. Remember it’s not benefitting you if you can’t cast more Kill Shots.
By default, the spreadsheet models around a purely idyllic stand-and-shoot, long-duration fight. It evaluates Kill Shot as if you’re going to get a full 1.2 minutes to use it and keep it on CD. In this time you would only be able to cast 5 Kill Shots (72s / 15s = 4.8). If you glyph for it you could cast 9 Kill Shots (72s / 9s = 8). Feel free to change your own durations in the spreadsheet to revalue the glyph appropriately.
This is a chart that shows the number of additional Kill Shots that occur within that 1.2 minutes when glyphed. The biggest thing that stands out to me is that you’re spending a Glyph slot for N additional attacks (depending on how many seconds are spent sub-20%) on the tail end of a boss fight, having been unused for the majority of the encounter just because it’s averaged out across the entire fight duration.
In some crude PHP: (48 GCDs * 1.5s = 72s)
for ($i=0,$max=48;$i<=$max;$i++) {
print(($i*1.5).":\t".floor($i*1.5/9)."/".floor($i*1.5/15)."\r\n");
}
To me the big question is do you want to buff the 84 Steady Shots cast in that 6 minute fight by 10% or would you rather squeeze in an extra 3 or maybe 4 attacks? Are you really going to see much of a sub-20% HP phase once all of your raids' DPS classes with Execute abilities start using them?
Salty Definitely has a point that I go over with people quite a bit. I don't go through a whole lot of 6+ min fights. Another thing to add to it is the sub 30% of a fight is on avg one of the fastest points in a fight. Your raid comp can nerf the effective of the glyph. Were not the only class with an execute.
Just look around. There are many fights with adds, a loooot of adds. From Ulduar to Ice Crown on 2/3 encounters exist some kind of target that must be nuked fast as possible. KS glyph give me an opportunity to switch fast and deadly to help raid to complete the objective. The number of fights that require your mobility is only increasing now. Naxxramas' time is gone
I wrote this up for the Blizzard hunter forums but given this topic sometimes comes up here I thought I should post it here as well.
Working off the assumption of 104.8% being the correct cap (which I believe it is, but it's possible there's some weird mechanic with the crit depression and I'm not sure if it's been fully tested), here are the potential soft caps to consider for SV:
1) KS + MT: 79.8%
2) KS: 89.8%
3) ES (glyphed) + MT: 86.8%
4) ES (not glyphed) + MT: 90.8%
5) ES (glyphed): 96.8%
Normal Raid buffs add the following:
- 5% crit from feral/fury buff
- 3% crit debuff on boss from mutilate rogue/ele shaman/paladin
- 51 agil from gift for .8% crit (after agil multipliers)
- 10% agil from kings (about 3% crit assuming 2500 unbuffed agil)
- 178 agil from imp SoE for 2.14% crit
Total estimated from raid buffs: 13.94% crit
So basically before taking into account trinket procs you're looking at about a 90.86% display crit cap before buffs for most abilities, 80.86% when MT is procced. 65.86% is when you start seeing KS cap with MT procced. Until you reach that point you are likely getting full value for your crit, although with trinkets procced you may be crit capping.
Trinket procs (this assumes 3 pts in Hunting Party and kings for Agil to crit conversions):
- DBW Heroic Crit Proc: 15.25% crit
- Dark Matter: 13.33% crit
- DBW Crit Proc: 13.07% crit
- DBW Heroic Agil Proc: 10.95% crit
- DBW Agil Proc: 9.38% crit
- DV Heroic: 7.98% crit
- DV: 7.04% crit
- DMC:G: 4.68% crit
The spreadsheet and my site can't really account for all the possibilities of crit capping since it's impossible to predict where the overlaps will happen accurately between procs. But this gives some idea about what the numbers are that you should be looking at before worrying that your crit might be too high.
Update: Forgot survival instincts in my original posting, numbers updated.
Hi,
With repop of ICC instance I get 2 pieces of T10 with the bonus "Exploit Weakness".
- According to WowHead comments it seems there is no internal CD for this bonus. Is it true ?
- As a Survival Hunter should I update my template ? May be it is better to move points of Improve Sting to IAotH now ? Or should I get, at least, the soft cap of 522 ?
Has anyone yet made some thoughts about trinkets you can get in 10 player instances ? I'm still stuck with greatness and mirror of truth/needle encrusted scorpid. Greatness is even this time doing quite well. The scorpid seems to be better for a survival hunter than the mirror, although arpen is just an average stat at a sv hunters point of view.
People who have access to 25 player raids would wear deaths choice, deathbringers will or comets trail, but 10 player raids only provide items with stats like expertise, hit or haste. Anyone has a good idea which items could outperform my existing ones ? Mark of supremacy has hit and i'm still 2 % hit overcapped and i'm struggling so much to get some hitrating off of my gear. Herkuml war token has a nice increasing ap effect but gearing haste seems odd for me as a sv hunter. So there still is whispering fanged skull with some crit-boost and a ap proc which is slightly better than that one mirror of truth provide.
Hi,
With repop of ICC instance I get 2 pieces of T10 with the bonus "Exploit Weakness".
- According to WowHead comments it seems there is no internal CD for this bonus. Is it true ?
- As a Survival Hunter should I update my template ? May be it is better to move points of Improve Sting to IAotH now ? Or should I get, at least, the soft cap of 522 ?
No internal CD - True, I was able to proc 2 Piece multiple times back to back, and then often proc none at all... pretty RNG when it comes to boss fights :/
in regards to moving your points around, what I did was make multiple profiles using the spreadsheet, and create "what if" specs and scenarios, keeping the same rotations, latencies, and buffs of course. (i.e. what if i was gemmed all armorpen, what if i was MM instead, etc).
You should try that and go from there. I found it easy to first name all the profiles from the overview tab, load my current profile, select the profile you want to save it to and press save. Doing that to multiple ones is like a copy and paste to another profile.
Using Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer (Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer) It appears as though the ArPen switch to Haste proc on Deathbringer's Will will be a large DPS loss.
600 ArPen at my 1.992 DPS per 1 Point of ArPen is 1195.2 DPS
600 Haste at my 1.152 DPS per 1 Point of Haste is 691.2 DPS
That totals up to a 502 DPS loss on the trinket proc during it's uptime.
Kind of a let down for Survival hunters but a buff for Marks hunters assuming they were already wasting ArPen when the trinket proc'd.
The trinket for hunters never procced ArP. It procs one of AGI (600), Crit (600), or Attack Power (1200). So it is unchanged for us. The ArP proc changing to haste is a huge boost to the melee classes that received ArP as a proc.
I've always been using the spreadsheet over zeherah's, and I loaded up my stats for the first time on it and it dropped a bit of a bomb on me:
agi: 1.898
ARP: 1.217
crit: 1.198
haste: 1.133
This is a significant difference from what the spreadsheet is telling me in regards to the value of haste. It puts it at a lowly .72 value. Who should I trust here? Femaledwarf.com is saying haste is almost as valuable as the other stats, does it have something to do with how I only have 95 haste rating?
12/24/09, 11:50 AM
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