The Survival Hunter in WotLK - Page 167

Breakerone · 04/24/09, 6:00 AM

Originally Posted by Bovii

OK, so before I post anything, I want to point out a few things about what I've modeled:

1) This isn't doing ANYTHING with napkin math (if you want that, you'll have to calculate that on your own)
2) This has nothing to do with the debate on trap mastery, hawk eye, Imp Stings, or Imp Aspect of the Hawk
3) The conclusions drawn were based on 0 latency, maximized haste for a 1.5s Steady, and the ability of a machine to hammer out the perfect rotation
4) All data was based on a 6 minute fight for standardization purposes

NOTE: If you want me to post the excel formats for this, I can but will hold off on those for right now.

Rotation #1 (ES - AS/MS - SrS - BA): 60+1 ES, 30 AS/MS, 15 SrS (glyphed), 15 BA (3/3 Resourcefulness) 120 SS; rotation recycles every 24s

Rotation #2 (ES - BA - SrS - AS/MS): 60+1 ES, 30 AS/MS, 15 SrS (glyphed), 15 BA (3/3 Resourcefulness), 120 SS; rotation recycles every 24s

Rotation #3 (ES - BA - AS/MS - SrS): 60+1 ES, 30 AS/MS, 15 SrS (glyphed), 15 BA (3/3 Resourcefulness), 120 SS; rotation recycles every 24s

Rotation #4 (ES - SrS - AS/MS - BA): 60+1 ES, 30 AS/MS, 18 SrS (glyphed), 15 BA (3/3 Resourcefulness), 116 SS; rotation recyles every 168s

Rotation #5 (ES - SrS - BA - AS/MS): 60+1 ES, 30 AS/MS, 18 SrS (glyphed), 15 BA (3/3 Resourcefulness), 117 SS; rotation recyles every 168s

Conclusions: Prioritizing Serpent Sting after Explosive Shot will net you more damage overall as it allows for a near 100% updatime on the sting. The problem with this, though, is that it isn't so much a rotation as it is a prioritization system that is absolutely chaotic. As I noted in "rotations" #4 and #5, it doesn't recycle until almost 3 minutes into a fight. Yes, you're getting in more stings which means more damage done AND you're benefiting from Noxious Stings on everything done beyond the initial Explosive Shot. But in order to maximize this, you'd have to be running several add-ons and have to be staring at the screen non-stop to make sure that you fired off everything when you could which can take away focus from the actual encounter.

I am not sure why rotation 4 gives you one less shot overall then the other rotations. Were you delaying something to keep the priority?

Apart from that, I believe when we make statements about rotations or priorities we should probably add a reason for the calculation. Because it will be a difference if you take a certain timespan and see how many shots can fit in it and what priority will be useful for that timespan, OR if on the other hand you say, the time spent shooting is totally unclear (which is actually the case), you will choose a different rotation to be sure you have used the best shots first and only the less useful shots are left out if the fight ends abruptly.

As a simple example, lets leave out dots. You have 5 instant damaging shots. They do 1,2,3,4,5 damage.

If you now say you will check a timespan of 5 gcd's, the priority is totally irrelevant for the result and you can shoot 1,2,3,4,5, because you will always get the total damage of 15.
But if you say the timeframe is unclear, it could be 2 gcd's, 3 or 4. Then the priority is obviously 5,4,3,2,1.

Add in the dots again, and its obvious, that if you use a fixed timespan for your calculation which lets the dots fully tick and does not exactly cut out the best shot at the end, it will be better to use the dots first, because their boni will increase the damage of the other shots. But if that means that at the abrupt end of a fight your last shot was a Serpent Sting instead of lets say an Aimed Shot, you will lose damage.

In short, to have the best priority system, you need to know the exact fight length. Since this is an information you cant get, its probably still best to try and use the shots with the most damage per gcd first.

Defiance · 04/24/09, 9:01 AM

Originally Posted by CureFC

I need to do more testing, but for now it looks to me like pulling a point from Hunting Party to go into GftT is a very valid investment.

That depends entirely on your crit chance, your stats will increase while progressing in ulduar picking up gear, so at this point in time for your gear level maybe, but alot of the people posting in the max dps post via spreadsheet that they have seen crit chances of over 50% on a lvl 83 boss without master technician, this obviously was BiS gear. Then the point can be moved back from GftT to hunting party for more agility which agian gives more crit. i perosnally think around 60% crit is more than enough to feed your GftT.

Basically im trying to say even if this is the better dps option atm there will come a time when gear has been replaced better to suite 1 point in GftT.

I will run tests on your theory soon, im currently doing a graphics exam in college so i can do so at this moment in time.

prime311 · 04/24/09, 10:28 AM

Maybe smarter people then me can run the math, but my experience, at least in 10 man Ulduar the last couple nights, my DPS was slightly higher then last week with 2/2 GftT and 2/3 Noxious Stings. I don't even miss that 1% with SrS up.

Beachwanderer · 04/24/09, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by prime311

Maybe smarter people then me can run the math, but my experience, at least in 10 man Ulduar the last couple nights, my DPS was slightly higher then last week with 2/2 GftT and 2/3 Noxious Stings. I don't even miss that 1% with SrS up.

It is entirely based on your stats. Your gear may warrant 2/2 GftT if your pet is being focus starved. An easy way to tell is look at the end of run report your guild publishes (whichever service they use) and see if your pet is no where near what a spreadsheet puts them at. For instance if the spreadsheet says the pet should be doing 1100 dps and it's only doing 800, there is a good chance he is being focus starved. For a very long time 1/2 GftT gave pets infinite amount of focus, but either Blizz has an error that needs to be hotfixed (explosive not proccing it) or we have to change the way the spreadsheets model this effect to choose the best way to allocate points. There may be better talents to pull from then Noxious Stings.

mugon86 · 04/25/09, 2:17 AM

I noticed the same dps increase of about 200 after swapping a point out of nox into GftT, was more than worth it. I could not bring myself to take it out of HP, It is a must for keeping replen on the raid to have 2 points in HP. That is of course based on a rotation that puts ES> AS/MS> BA> SrS> SS.

I would prefer ES procing it again and being able to go back to 1. :P

Mr Tazza · 04/25/09, 2:30 AM

Yeah, ES now procs TotH for (40% manacost)/3 each tick, but still doesnt proc anything else apparently, please someone from US realms bring up a new blue post about it!

TheIceMan · 04/25/09, 6:01 AM

Another question:

Is it just a tooltip bug that t.n.t. 1/3 & 2/3 increase ba dmg, but 3/3 dosen´t?

Defiance · 04/25/09, 7:19 AM

With the idea of people moving talent points from the survival tree alot of people have either chosen HP or NS to move across, someone even suggested master technician at some point i believe.

However im considering moving the point from expose weakness and only leaving one in there, currently it may not be possible but at a later gear level towards 3.1 and onwards BiS then it may be worth considering. I will post results my findings tommorow as i don't raid until then.

Tharia · 04/25/09, 7:31 AM

I'm pulling points from Hunting Party and probably TotH after that (I might be forced to spec FA soon). Mana is no problem at all in a boss fight if there are no ridiculous amounts of small adds without JoW so you can get rid of at least 1 point imho.
MT is quite a lot of dps according to the spreadsheet, and so is NS while 3/3 Toth does nothing most of the time.

Coachbowden · 04/25/09, 1:58 PM

We ran clean up in NAXX 25 last night, and I was noticing my severe lack od LnL procs. It got to the point where it was painfully obvious something was wrong. I re-apply Black Arrow whenever availiable, so it's not just a mental lapse on my part. I was talking with the other hunters in the raid, and my fellow class leader sent me this from WWS this morning

Total shots:
Delvthar
Total of Explosive Shots = 929

Auto shot = 1245
Steady Shot = 626
Kill Shot = 23
Lock and Load procs = 103

Coach <---- Me
Total of Explosive Shot = 786

Auto shot = 921
Steady Shot = 422
Kill Shot = 19
Lock and Load procs = 44

Now the only glaring difference I see between us the amount of haste Delvthar has

My armory page

The World of Warcraft Armory

Delvthar's

The World of Warcraft Armory

So I guess my question is that, would that much haste cause a fairly comparable skilled and geared hunter get double the amount of LnL procs? or am I just unlucky???

any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

Coach

enelnico · 04/25/09, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Coachbowden

So I guess my question is that, would that much haste cause a fairly comparable skilled and geared hunter get double the amount of LnL procs? or am I just unlucky???

Now that LnL procs off BA, and the LnL does no longer has an internal CD the ammount of LnL you get on a fight is realy realy random, haste doesnt has nothing to do with it.

P.D: First post

, and sorry for my english

KraxisSingular · 04/25/09, 5:59 PM

You got real unlucky, simple as that.

The relatively low procchance per tick, the time without any ticks and the lack of a cooldown means that RNG is highly active. I have had three LnL procs back to back on Aureiya (or what her name is), while for the entire fight of Razorscale as well as Ignis I had none.

I never thought I would say this, but I would prefer an internal cooldown to come back and then up the proc chance a bit.

Skybluesky · 04/25/09, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Coachbowden

So I guess my question is that, would that much haste cause a fairly comparable skilled and geared hunter get double the amount of LnL procs? or am I just unlucky???

One simple way to increase your LnL procs dramatically and independent of skill or gear would be to spec properly for it, by taking (3/3) Resourcefulness.

cidica · 04/25/09, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by Coachbowden

We ran clean up in NAXX 25 last night, and I was noticing my severe lack od LnL procs. It got to the point where it was painfully obvious something was wrong. I re-apply Black Arrow whenever availiable, so it's not just a mental lapse on my part. I was talking with the other hunters in the raid, and my fellow class leader sent me this from WWS this morning

Total shots:
Delvthar
Total of Explosive Shots = 929

Auto shot = 1245
Steady Shot = 626
Kill Shot = 23
Lock and Load procs = 103

Coach <---- Me
Total of Explosive Shot = 786

Auto shot = 921
Steady Shot = 422
Kill Shot = 19
Lock and Load procs = 44

Now the only glaring difference I see between us the amount of haste Delvthar has

My armory page

The World of Warcraft Armory

Delvthar's

The World of Warcraft Armory

So I guess my question is that, would that much haste cause a fairly comparable skilled and geared hunter get double the amount of LnL procs? or am I just unlucky???

any suggestions would be greatly appreciated

Coach

Just looking at both specs I have to wonder why you both are not using 3/3 resourcefulness. Also 1/3 ew? yet you put points into Imp Mark why? Honestly I would redo the build. 2/3 ew 1/2 GftT 3/3 resourcefulness. Also you have the hunters mark glyph why? while it's always up the SrS glyph would be of more benifet and makes the shot priority a bit easier to manage.

cidica · 04/25/09, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

I never thought I would say this, but I would prefer an internal cooldown to come back and then up the proc chance a bit.

I honestly have to agree with this. While I do love tripple procs of LnL when they do happen going into a fight (lets say patchwork as an example) and not getting 1 LnL proc at all is not a nice thing.