The Survival Hunter in WotLK - Page 178

Æthien · 05/11/09, 3:08 AM

Lock and Load has a chance of roughly 26% to proc from any given Black Arrow, so if you're doing napkin math using 26% of the damage you get from a lock and load there should give numbers that are accurate enough.

cloudy09 · 05/11/09, 5:28 AM

Improved Tracking

A simple talent that gives 5% damage for 5 talentpoints. Decent. You no longer need an add-on to switch tracking to targettype.

Does that mean that you only have to track one of the written mobtypes and the 5% +damge is working?

arlen · 05/11/09, 5:40 AM

Yes that's correct.

Jobby · 05/11/09, 7:12 AM

Originally Posted by alienangel

The accounting for the 6% damage loss from the debuff is kinda rough (Normal DPS * 0.06 * BA uptime), but I think it's reasonable as napkin math. I also did not consider the chance of proccing LnL from BA anyway - this would favour not using traps, but the chance of a proc is still fairly low, so unless the spreadsheet has a neat probabilistic "expected LnL damage from each BA" I'm ignoring it for now.

So if you get an LnL proc every trap cooldown by dropping a frost trap instead of firing BA, then after considering the debuff damage you give up, and the damage of the 2 steadyshots you losts by firing extra ES instead, and the damage of BA itself, I should still be gaining 8577 damage every time I do it. If my trap cooldown is 24s that's a 357 dps gain, if my cooldown is 30s (untalented) it's a 285 dps gain.

Besides the chance of L+L procs off black arrow as above that you choose to leave out, your math also leaves out increased serpent sting damage as well as not considering the fact that an L+L proc is not a strict -2 steady shot +2 explosive shot formula. I'm going to use the rotation of ES-Steady-ES-Steady-ES even though it's sub-optimal because it more clearly illustrates the point. In this L+L rotation, you're only effectively gaining one explosive shot, as the second one is fired when an explosive shot would be fired off cooldown anyway (ES-shot-shot-shot-ES vs ES-shot-ES-shot-ES). If you're doing ES-delay-ES-delay-ES, you'll gain a small deal more than a full ES, but also sacrifice more than 2 steadies due to delaying on GCDs. Of course, it also depends on how well you fire the ES off delays, if your steadies are full hasted or if you lose some time past the GCD, if you have to delay other shots that aren't steady shot to fire off ES, etc etc. Given all that, BA should provide more DPS than dropping traps to trigger L+L procs, given the accuracy of the rest of your math.

alienangel · 05/11/09, 2:51 PM

I appear to have not saved the spreadsheet, so had to rewrite it. Thanks for the BALnL% Aithen (is that the compound for the various possible combinations of procs on each tick?)

Jobby, I'm not sure what you mean by saying I'm not considering increased Serpent Sting damage, that should already be part of the DPS column below (along with trinket procs and other sources of damage), which is what is used to calculate the LostDPSDmg column - I said this was sketchy though, since it's taken from the sheet and is already assuming LnL procs and BA uptime to begin with :S - so the DPS value is too high, leading to LostDPSDmg being too high - I think that would only make us err on the side of favouring BA over traps though - and since we still find in favour of traps, that shouldn't change the conclusion.

I'll still model the "wait 0.5s before firing" method, since afaik it's what we should be doing. I can model I think the fact that we're losing more than 2 steady shots though, with the extra 0.5s waits I believe we lose 2.666... steadies per LnL?

I am not attempting to model how many ES we are losing over the course of the fight via an LnL proc pushing back the cooldown on the next non-LnL ES, I am not sure how to go about it.

With the above changes:

ES    ST    BA    DPS     BALnL%  BACooldown  ExtraESDmg  LostSTDmg LostBADmg LostDebuffDmg NetPerCD  NetDPSPerCD
13161 2928  6753  5705.96 0.26    24          26322       7808      10174.86  5135.36       3203.78   133.49
13161 2928  6753  5705.96 0.26    30          26322       7808      10174.86  5135.36       3203.78   106.79

So the DPS gains are 133.49 and 106.79 still in favour of traps.

This is not considering the much higher mana cost of BA compared to a frost trap, which again would argue in favour of trapping on a fight where mana may be an issue, and the aforementioned fact that LostDebuffDmg is probably quite a bit higher above than it really is.

Weighing in against that though is the fact that the ES and ST expected damages are calculated by the sheet to include the BA damage debuff I think, so those would should be lower than above too.

Cattiebrie · 05/11/09, 6:35 PM

On some fights, where there are a decent quantity of adds, I have taken to dropping Explosive Trap. It has the same proc % as Black Arrow, but then when multiplied by the amount of adds hit, it increases the chance of proccing significantly, as well as increases your overall damage. (Mimiron P3, Deconstructor adds, Razorscale adds, etc.

Pijn · 05/11/09, 7:00 PM

Originally Posted by Cattiebrie

On some fights, where there are a decent quantity of adds, I have taken to dropping Explosive Trap. It has the same proc % as Black Arrow, but then when multiplied by the amount of adds hit, it increases the chance of proccing significantly, as well as increases your overall damage. (Mimiron P3, Deconstructor adds, Razorscale adds, etc.

That's odd; Lock and Load clearly reads it has a 100% chance to proc when you trap a target, OR 6% chance when your Black Arrow or Immolation Trap deals damage.

Explosive Trap would only work for the first part (though it doesn't mention Explosive Trap specifically for some reason); one application (the trapping). Are you sure you saw this correctly? Multiple LnL procs from one explosive trap?

Hunteralex · 05/12/09, 6:38 AM

Please Delete.

Hunteralex · 05/12/09, 6:51 AM

I was reviewing other hunters last night in Ulduar 25. It seems, many fights where I was just below them, and I have much higher gear then them. Looking at their specs compared to mine, they all had Aimed Shot, and IAotH. Is that worth losing then 2% agility boost from Hunting party? Maybe, just losing 1 point in hunting party to gain IAotH? Can anyone create a model to get this accurate as possible?

alienangel · 05/12/09, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Hunteralex

I was reviewing other hunters last night in Ulduar 25. It seems, many fights where I was just below them, and I have much higher gear then them. Looking at their specs compared to mine, they all had Aimed Shot, and IAotH. Is that worth losing then 2% agility boost from Hunting party? Maybe, just losing 1 point in hunting party to gain IAotH? Can anyone create a model to get this accurate as possible?

WotLK DPS spreadsheet ?

Nitemare19 · 05/12/09, 10:45 AM

Hey guys and gals.

Ever since BM was orignally wacked I have been a survival hunter. My DPS has gone up significantly since the change. Depending on buffs of course, I usually am around 3500-4200 DPS in 25 man Naxx fights. We are still ramping on ulduar. 10 Mans I am closer to 2800-3500

Here is my Armory Nitedyce of Sen'jin

Currently the toon is under hit cap, that was because the last time I ran with him I had a dranaei in my party which pushed me over. When I don't have the hit cap I swap in hit gear in the spreadsheet to see if my delta increases or decreases. I will go with a higher delta over making sure I have the hit cap (issue?)

Anyway, I have seen hunters with similar gear to me have a range of 5200-6000 DPS, it is rare, but I have seen it.

My rotation is Kill Shot > Explo Shot > Black Arrow > Aimed Shot > Serpent Sting > Steady Shot

Pet is wolf, with standard wolf build. Mammoth cutters are used in raids (ammo) and flask of relentless assault / Blackened Dragonfin.

What suggestions do you have?

I do my best to maintain black arrow / serpent sting up at all times (but usually I just follow my best shot available rotation). I don't clip my LnL procs (usually throw a shot in between). I have standard raid buffs.

For those who actively cross that 5000 DPS barrier, I feel I am missing something obvious. Probably something I am not paying attention too, or a stat that needs rasing (ie haste, natural hit cap for pet dps).

I have various 200+ items I can swap in, so any gear suggestions are also welcome. And I am quite aware my weakest piece is my head slot item. I have only twice had a shot at a 200+ helm, and in both cases rolled 90+ and lost. Since this helmet isn't on the spreadsheets radar anymore, is there any non high end raid helms peeps can suggest? Maybe even a leather lid? I use the old head enchant as well for hit cap reasons, so I do understand I am losing signifacnt DPS on that slot, but I do not think it would make up the 1000 DPS I seem to be missing. Maybe it does, this is why I am posting this

In my latest WWS report I do see the odd miss (under 1%) but my wolf is missing on some of his attacks at a high rate (one fight I missed 0.7% on KT, but the wolfs swing was at 41.7% miss and bite at 27.8% misses). My DPS for the fight was just over 3400 DPS. I don't understand if that ties into me not always having the natural hit rating, so perhaps this is where I am losing dps? But 42% miss on swing?, is that just a KT thing?)

I really appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks in advance, and happy hunting

Zigazaha · 05/12/09, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Nitemare19

Ever since BM was orignally wacked I have been a survival hunter. My DPS has gone up significantly since the change. Depending on buffs of course, I usually am around 3500-4200 DPS in 25 man Naxx fights. We are still ramping on ulduar. 10 Mans I am closer to 2800-3500

Here is my Armory Nitedyce of Sen'jin

<snip>

My two thoughts are, is your pet level 80?
And what's your latency?

Nitemare19 · 05/12/09, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Zigazaha

My two thoughts are, is your pet level 80?
And what's your latency?

Pet is indeed level 80, however the latency may be an issue. I have an older board/processor, and raiding fps is usually between 10-20 FPS.

Never thought of latency before...

alarge · 05/12/09, 11:32 AM

I suspect that your pet misses include dodges and possibly other (parry, block) "pseudo-misses". Having said that, being under the hit-cap is amplified in your pet, who gets hit only in whole percentages (so if you are at 0.1% miss, your pet is at 1% miss).

I'd suspect that the dps gap is due to one or more of the following factors:

* Gear. Specifically, the things you've already mentioned. BTW, are you running OS? There's a nice helm there.

* Raid buffs. Are you getting all the pally buffs? Do you have someone sundering+FF the target? Do you have a feral druid, ret pally, blood DK, enh shammy (all the guys who give us interesting stuff during the raid) in the raid?

* Cooldowns. Remembering to use Rapid Fire and CotW? And using a haste potion during the fight?

* Fight Duration. How quickly are the fights going? In particular, are you under haste effects for the majority of the fight?

Bikiniwax · 05/12/09, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Nitemare19

In my latest WWS report I do see the odd miss (under 1%) but my wolf is missing on some of his attacks at a high rate (one fight I missed 0.7% on KT, but the wolfs swing was at 41.7% miss and bite at 27.8% misses). My DPS for the fight was just over 3400 DPS. I don't understand if that ties into me not always having the natural hit rating, so perhaps this is where I am losing dps? But 42% miss on swing?, is that just a KT thing?)

I really appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks in advance, and happy hunting

Also to add, your hit rating of 254 may only be slightly under the hit cap of 263 (~8%), however your pet's hit if I recall correctly would lose a whole 1% hit, which would make it 7% hit. WWS may also report your pet's melee dodges/parries/blocks as misses as well.

Edit: Last patch, hit transferring to pet in whole numbers was changed. Thanks for the reminder Esoth,