The Survival Hunter in WotLK - Page 179

Nitemare19 · 05/12/09, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by alarge

I suspect that your pet misses include dodges and possibly other (parry, block) "pseudo-misses". Having said that, being under the hit-cap is amplified in your pet, who gets hit only in whole percentages (so if you are at 0.1% miss, your pet is at 1% miss).

I'd suspect that the dps gap is due to one or more of the following factors:

* Gear. Specifically, the things you've already mentioned. BTW, are you running OS? There's a nice helm there.

* Raid buffs. Are you getting all the pally buffs? Do you have someone sundering+FF the target? Do you have a feral druid, ret pally, blood DK, enh shammy (all the guys who give us interesting stuff during the raid) in the raid?

* Cooldowns. Remembering to use Rapid Fire and CotW? And using a haste potion during the fight?

* Fight Duration. How quickly are the fights going? In particular, are you under haste effects for the majority of the fight?

Yah Running OS when I can. Only seen the sniper helm once, rolled 97 and lost. Between that and the fury of the five flights, I will continue to run it.

Raid buffs - I never paid it much mind before but I have been lately. Pally buffs are there, Sunders may be down, as our guild tanks are not warriors (well our main guys) and we don't have too many dps warriors to boot, so a good point. Enh shammy's also missing as far as I can remember.

Cooldowns - I used to pop Rapid Fire at the start of any fight and as soon as it comes up again. Now I will be honest I try to save it for Heroism pops, but that may hurt me as well. Food for thought. As for CotW, I may need to examine how I am using it.

Haste potions - This is a good point. I had a couple that I tried a bit ago, but they only last a few seconds so I dismissed them. Which do you suggest? Or do they all expire quickly?

Fights are generally quick. Our guild on the whole does good DPS, with 2 mages clearing 5k routinely, and a few others who are routinely mid 4000's

Dralmoo · 05/12/09, 11:47 AM

deleted, bad information

Namarus · 05/12/09, 12:51 PM

Alien,

I find your treatise on frost trap to be very interesting. I wonder if you could conduct a breakdown via a timeline to show exactly what you would be doing for a frost trap and black arrow comparison. I'm having a hard time understanding where you are getting the damage increase/decrease from.

Thanks.

stickums · 05/12/09, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Pijn

That's odd; Lock and Load clearly reads it has a 100% chance to proc when you trap a target, OR 6% chance when your Black Arrow or Immolation Trap deals damage.

Explosive Trap would only work for the first part (though it doesn't mention Explosive Trap specifically for some reason); one application (the trapping). Are you sure you saw this correctly? Multiple LnL procs from one explosive trap?

Could be sheer luck but I have a 100% LnL proc rate on Explosive Trap, even when it's a single mob. Either it's bugged or the tooltip is missing something.

Pijn · 05/12/09, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by stickums

Could be sheer luck but I have a 100% LnL proc rate on Explosive Trap, even when it's a single mob. Either it's bugged or the tooltip is missing something.

Well i am more interested in the fact you had multiple LnL procs from one explosive trap ticking on multiple mobs, since that is what you claimed in your post earlier. Whether the application of the trap procs LnL 100% or not, getting multiple LnL procs after the application due to mobs standing in the Explosive Trap AoE would be insane of course. I would test this myself, but my two specs are MM and BM.

Ozoko · 05/12/09, 1:55 PM

Originally Posted by Pijn

Well i am more interested in the fact you had multiple LnL procs from one explosive trap ticking on multiple mobs, since that is what you claimed in your post earlier. Whether the application of the trap procs LnL 100% or not, getting multiple LnL procs after the application due to mobs standing in the Explosive Trap AoE would be insane of course. I would test this myself, but my two specs are MM and BM.

I just went and had a mess about and it definitely procs 100% off explosive but i let the mob bash away on me till LnL faded and the trap went off again and got nothing. Not exactly conclusive but yeah.

Nitemare19 · 05/12/09, 2:28 PM

while ont he subject of trap dancing, my traps used to trigger LnL all the time, now it barely does. Traps I was using in the past were Frost trap or Immo.

So Explo Trap is procing LnL at 100%? Hmmmm

Bluesfear · 05/12/09, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by Nitemare19

while ont he subject of trap dancing, my traps used to trigger LnL all the time, now it barely does. Traps I was using in the past were Frost trap or Immo.

So Explo Trap is procing LnL at 100%? Hmmmm

All traps proc LnL 100%.

Kurianna · 05/12/09, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by Bluesfear

All traps proc LnL 100%.

Are you sure? I see immo trap showing 10% fully talented.

You have a 100% chance when you trap a target with Freezing Trap, Freezing Arrow or Frost Trap and a 10% chance when you deal periodic damage with your Immolation Trap or Black Arrow to cause your next 2 Arcane Shot or Explosive Shot spells to trigger no cooldown, cost no mana and consume no ammo.

Unfortunately, no word in there about explosive, which is why the discussion.

alarge · 05/12/09, 3:07 PM

Originally Posted by Nitemare19

Yah Running OS when I can. Only seen the sniper helm once, rolled 97 and lost. Between that and the fury of the five flights, I will continue to run it.

Raid buffs - I never paid it much mind before but I have been lately. Pally buffs are there, Sunders may be down, as our guild tanks are not warriors (well our main guys) and we don't have too many dps warriors to boot, so a good point. Enh shammy's also missing as far as I can remember.

Cooldowns - I used to pop Rapid Fire at the start of any fight and as soon as it comes up again. Now I will be honest I try to save it for Heroism pops, but that may hurt me as well. Food for thought. As for CotW, I may need to examine how I am using it.

Haste potions - This is a good point. I had a couple that I tried a bit ago, but they only last a few seconds so I dismissed them. Which do you suggest? Or do they all expire quickly?

Fights are generally quick. Our guild on the whole does good DPS, with 2 mages clearing 5k routinely, and a few others who are routinely mid 4000's

Sunders are huge. They rank right under BoM as the biggest increase to physical dps. If you don't have a warrior tank, make sure your dps tanks are sundering. If you don't have warriors at all, have a rogue keep up expose armor. They'll hate it, but it will be an overall dps boost to the raid (especially in 25s where it will benefit many people). Somewhere in these forums is a list of raid buffs and who gives them. You should make sure that you have a source for each of the buffs -- especially those that impact hunters.

You shouldn't try to stack Rapid Fire with Heroism. That will push you past the haste cap and "waste" some of the haste. Haste potions are basically a bit like Rapid Fire or Heroism -- a short-duration haste buff. Better than nothing, and for most fights, you won't need your potion CD for anything else, so might as well use it for haste.

alienangel · 05/12/09, 5:36 PM

Originally Posted by Namarus

Alien,

I find your treatise on frost trap to be very interesting. I wonder if you could conduct a breakdown via a timeline to show exactly what you would be doing for a frost trap and black arrow comparison. I'm having a hard time understanding where you are getting the damage increase/decrease from.

Thanks.

It wasn't meant to be a treatise >.>

As for a timeline, I was just trying to model what you should normally be doing vs what happens with an LnL proc.

Normally you'd (at least in this assumed convenient time segment):
fire BA
fire ES because it came off cooldown
fire 2 steady shots back to back because all other shots are on cooldown

In the frost trap scenario you'd:
drop frost trap (get LnL proc)
fire ES because it came off cooldown
wait 0.5
fire ES
wait 0.5
fire ES

Now, neither of those scenarios are exact because other shots coming off cooldowns change things, but those are what I tried to model

I'm also still not satisfied with the "damage added to BA because of the chance it might proc LnL" math in the previous post, since it's not taking into account everything about LnL either, so maybe that should be taken out again. However we're by now approaching a situation in which it would be better to customise simcraft to drop traps instead of firing BA and do a full simulation to see which method nets higher DPS, since it's all pretty convoluted.

Anyone familiar with running simcraft locally want to take a shot at it?

Namarus · 05/12/09, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by alarge

Sunders are huge. They rank right under BoM as the biggest increase to physical dps. If you don't have a warrior tank, make sure your dps tanks are sundering. If you don't have warriors at all, have a rogue keep up expose armor. They'll hate it, but it will be an overall dps boost to the raid (especially in 25s where it will benefit many people). Somewhere in these forums is a list of raid buffs and who gives them. You should make sure that you have a source for each of the buffs -- especially those that impact hunters.

You shouldn't try to stack Rapid Fire with Heroism. That will push you past the haste cap and "waste" some of the haste. Haste potions are basically a bit like Rapid Fire or Heroism -- a short-duration haste buff. Better than nothing, and for most fights, you won't need your potion CD for anything else, so might as well use it for haste.

I've been pondering the benefits of using the 200 crit/200 spell power potion instead of the haste potion. To me it sounds like a better deal. However, I've not tested this yet.

sihyunie · 05/12/09, 8:51 PM

Originally Posted by Namarus

I've been pondering the benefits of using the 200 crit/200 spell power potion instead of the haste potion. To me it sounds like a better deal. However, I've not tested this yet.

So you need 200 crit to be better than 500 haste, which means you need 1 crit to be better than 2.5 haste. That sounds highly unlikely even by intuition, and looking at the stats on the spreadsheet, it agrees (1 crit = 0.948 dps to 1 haste = 0.575 dps, so 1 crit ~ 1.65 haste).

Hititicus · 05/12/09, 9:38 PM

Originally Posted by alarge

Sunders are huge. They rank right under BoM as the biggest increase to physical dps. If you don't have a warrior tank, make sure your dps tanks are sundering. If you don't have warriors at all, have a rogue keep up expose armor. They'll hate it, but it will be an overall dps boost to the raid (especially in 25s where it will benefit many people). Somewhere in these forums is a list of raid buffs and who gives them. You should make sure that you have a source for each of the buffs -- especially those that impact hunters.

You shouldn't try to stack Rapid Fire with Heroism. That will push you past the haste cap and "waste" some of the haste. Haste potions are basically a bit like Rapid Fire or Heroism -- a short-duration haste buff. Better than nothing, and for most fights, you won't need your potion CD for anything else, so might as well use it for haste.

This tool is fantastic for seeing what buffs all classes and specs bring to the raid; not sure if it was what you were referring to but posting in case.

Iroared · 05/12/09, 11:20 PM

It seems that explosive trap triggers lock and load.
Do you think using it instead of black arrow can increase your DPS? I would like to see some math on that, whether LnL proc every 24 seconds will add more than blackarrow damage + 6% dps over 15 seconds + rare LnL procs from black arrow.