The Survival Hunter in WotLK - Page 188

winflop · 05/26/09, 7:59 PM

I would not consider switching from SV to MM until I see a compelling dps boost in the gear I have or may have shortly. Not worth doing the homework on MM that I've done on SV over the past year or so.

Just my two cents

• RobotChicken · 05/26/09, 8:50 PM

Originally Posted by winflop

I would not consider switching from SV to MM until I see a compelling dps boost in the gear I have or may have shortly. Not worth doing the homework on MM that I've done on SV over the past year or so.

Just my two cents

There isn't that much "homework" to do, honestly. I've never played MM in my life and I picked it up surprisingly quickly. If anything, it's easier to play than Surv.

That being said, MM is only a DPS up over Surv in Ulduar gear, to my knowledge. It's best to check the spreadsheet, and if it's a big enough DPS increase, I would definitely switch.

Rivkah · 05/26/09, 11:33 PM

Looks like hunter's mark is being buffed to 500 AP in 3.1.3. In the spreadsheet this gives me a 97dps buff assuming no imp mark or glyphed mark. The glyph seems to add another 48.54dps and imp mark is worth 24.26dps per talent pt. At those levels, it may be more worth having a hunter spec or glyph for it. In my sheet the glyph comes out only a few dps less than the serpent sting one, and imp mark's talent value is coming out about 3dps lower than hunting party, assuming someone else is providing the replenishment. No doubt it would depend on gear and how many hunters you're running (my raid usually only has 1-2 so we probably won't bother), but in a raid with 2-3 hunters regularly I could see it be definitely worth having someone go that route.

I also haven't been seriously looking at marks but as it seems to be making a comeback, is it easier to find spare talent points for imp mark in the marks spec?

stickums · 05/27/09, 1:02 AM

Originally Posted by winflop

I would not consider switching from SV to MM until I see a compelling dps boost in the gear I have or may have shortly. Not worth doing the homework on MM that I've done on SV over the past year or so.

Just my two cents

Homework? Load up the spreadsheet and change your spec and rotation. See which one is higher dps. Marks is edging out SV for me already, and with the 3.1.3 mana changes it's a no brainer now.

KraxisSingular · 05/27/09, 7:29 AM

Originally Posted by Rivkah

Looks like hunter's mark is being buffed to 500 AP in 3.1.3. In the spreadsheet this gives me a 97dps buff assuming no imp mark or glyphed mark. The glyph seems to add another 48.54dps and imp mark is worth 24.26dps per talent pt. At those levels, it may be more worth having a hunter spec or glyph for it. In my sheet the glyph comes out only a few dps less than the serpent sting one, and imp mark's talent value is coming out about 3dps lower than hunting party, assuming someone else is providing the replenishment. No doubt it would depend on gear and how many hunters you're running (my raid usually only has 1-2 so we probably won't bother), but in a raid with 2-3 hunters regularly I could see it be definitely worth having someone go that route.

I also haven't been seriously looking at marks but as it seems to be making a comeback, is it easier to find spare talent points for imp mark in the marks spec?

Yeah, my raid see between 2 and 4 Hunters, in that case a token MM (which should be pretty attractive now with the change to Master Marksman) with both glyph and Imp Hunter's Mark should provide a huge DPS boost overall.

Personally I like my BM offspec for soloing stuff, but this difference is big enough to make me go for it.

Fingolken · 05/27/09, 8:24 AM

Tbh I do not really see a great difference in difficulty as far as the three specs are concerned. Every spec is likewise easy to learn and play. I guess individual skill makes up for the difference whether you outperform other dds.

As a matter of fact I greatly dislike the rng component of sv which is lnl. If you are lucky you can have 2 or 3 lnl proccs within one uptime of BA, but you might as well have no procc at all.
To me mm is slightly more reliable as there is no procc which account for a huge portion of dps. As mm you might be a little more dependant on crits than sv is since piercing shot gives you some dps. Yet all in all I have experienced mm to be a little more stable, less fluctuating in dps.

The master marksman buff is great. It eliminates the disadvantage and makes mm viable again.

Beachwanderer · 05/27/09, 8:38 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

I'm sure you are mistaking Rapid Fire with Bloodlust, which does affect Volley. I just logged back on to test it. Both with and without Rapid Fire my Volley sat at a nice 5.5 seconds. That fits my 10%ish passive Haste well enough. But it certainly doesn't fit 40% Haste. What might make people mistake it is that the sound of Volley is faster. Each 'shot' comes those 40% Haste faster, but in terms of actual arcane arrows dropping from the sky, nothing changes.

Whoops you're right, I had a brain fart. I even said "Haste" which Rapid fire does not provide.

Mulgarath · 05/27/09, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by winflop

I would not consider switching from SV to MM until I see a compelling dps boost in the gear I have or may have shortly. Not worth doing the homework on MM that I've done on SV over the past year or so.

Just my two cents

I replaced my BM alt specc with the MM one after following several threads about the MM comeback. I agree that from all 3 speccs, SV must be the hardest one to adapt and learn to play but you don't need to be an astronaut to figure it out. Couple of days playing it and you are ready to go.

What annoyed me the most and made my DPS unreliable was the Sniper Training Buff and the LnL proccs. Other than that I was happy with it, not extremely happy with it because some DKs and rogues with similar or lower gear were having sustainable higher dps than mine. I was providing mana replenishment and having raid utility so...like I said, happy with it.

Went to ulduar25 last night with my MM specc (7/57/7 standard one), one day after switching it and the difference is amazing. First off I can jump and run and strafe all I want (like a good old hunter should do) and don't lose dps, the burst damage seems quite higher than the SV one and the dps is quite reliable. Was pumping regular 5.3k dps on the Mimiron fight, 900DPS lower than the spreadsheet predicted. Something to work on in the future but still pretty good.

When in 10mans I still have my SV with mana replenishment on the secondary specc but on 25mans it will be MM all the way from now on.

Nothing like being open minded and giving it a go, you can always go back if things go wrong or get a better specc to work with.

PS - Had no mana issues whatsoever with a Retribution Paladin and a SV Hunter on the raid but still it's not much more problematic than the SV one. Rapid Recuperation and Readiness are up for it. The new Master Marksman tooltip will only be make it better.

Skapegoat · 05/29/09, 5:22 AM

Ok
Been clearing Ulduar as of late and seeing all the top gear together is stacked armor pen and crit rating.
Slapping my haste into the dirt.
Has the need for 1.5 steady shot been extinguished or is there a new way around this?
HELP PLEASE!!!

CALMSTORM · 05/29/09, 9:19 AM

Originally Posted by Skapegoat

Ok
Been clearing Ulduar as of late and seeing all the top gear together is stacked armor pen and crit rating.
Slapping my haste into the dirt.
Has the need for 1.5 steady shot been extinguished or is there a new way around this?
HELP PLEASE!!!

Well as far as my gear level is concerned, 1 Crit or 1 Arp both benefit me more then 1 Haste... Since I am definitely way below the soft haste-cap , I can pretty confidently tell you that soft hast-cap is definitely not needed for a raiding hunter. Ofcourse it is a nice thing to have but still if you consult your spreadsheet you will see that in many of the cases haste rating will remain inferior to crit or arp...
(PS. Still if you really want that, you can pick a few points from Iaoth and get glyphed for it- Though I expect such a choice could lower your dps in comparison to other alternatives)

Johrael · 05/29/09, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Skapegoat

Ok
Been clearing Ulduar as of late and seeing all the top gear together is stacked armor pen and crit rating.
Slapping my haste into the dirt.
Has the need for 1.5 steady shot been extinguished or is there a new way around this?
HELP PLEASE!!!

Steady Shot is becoming more and more of a filler shot for Survival hunters. Thus, the soft haste cap is not nearly as important as it used to be. If you take a look at the sets put together for maximum Survival DPS, I'm 99% sure that you would see they don't that Improved Aspect of the Hawk or have enough haste to reach the soft haste cap. Thus, there is not really a need to aim for the soft cap. Haste is still good but not the end all, be all.

Killio · 05/30/09, 12:23 AM

Sorry to ask this question if its been posted before but im part of our 25man yoggs brain group and we get the brain down fast enough but i wanna help with the DPS to all inside the brain by switching my imp hawk to 3/3 to imp hunters mark while saying this in guild they stated that, there is a enhance talent that makes hunter mark pointless ... im not about this talent there talking about any ideas or is it good to get imp hunter mark and glyph it?
Thanks ahead of time

Rezdan · 05/30/09, 2:28 AM

They're confusing Hunter's Mark with Trueshot Aura.

Spatrick · 05/30/09, 4:02 AM

I do have to admit I'm an old school MM spec hunter dating back to the MC days but I switched to BM for BC then to Surv for WotLK. Up to this point Surv seemed like the best dps spec (naxx) but with the design of the Ulduar encounters and the recent annouced buffs it seems MM is the easy choice. I could care less with what the spreadhseet says because it does not factor in all the movement required for Ulduar encounters. MM is a much easier rotation to master, has excellent burst damage and mana is no longer an issue in 25s.

RobbieW · 05/30/09, 4:06 AM

well sv>mm if you need to switch targets because you need hunters mark to deal good damage. And if your raiddps isn't high enough mana will be an issue.