The Survival Hunter in WotLK - Page 207

Vø� d · 09/30/09, 2:50 AM

Now that I have 2pc t9 I did some minimal testing on 1 pt in expose weakness and with my UB crit at a little over 46% this does seem viable. Once it procs after first few shots it seems to rarely go down for more than 1 sec. I'm sure with full raid buffs it will stay up since my crit will be over 50% +10% when master tactician procs. Didn't realize I was wasting the point. TY for the tip. Now to run numbers on the 0/18/53 spec.

UKM · 09/30/09, 3:18 PM

So after reading a bunch of the beginning talk about survival and the main stats that are required it seems to be that i have notice people using spell penetration gems. I thought that ArP was mainly for hunters like warriors and dks....am i mistaken? I did also notice that the gems were used in a mm spec as well, which to me doesnt sound proper. right now i am sitting at 40% crit and 5194 AP with AoTD. I am well over hitcap and have been geming mostly agility and crit/stam for socket bonuses. Did i miss something?

heritikyl · 09/30/09, 3:22 PM

Originally Posted by UKM

So after reading a bunch of the beginning talk about survival and the main stats that are required it seems to be that i have notice people using spell penetration gems. I thought that ArP was mainly for hunters like warriors and dks....am i mistaken? I did also notice that the gems were used in a mm spec as well, which to me doesnt sound proper. right now i am sitting at 40% crit and 5194 AP with AoTD. I am well over hitcap and have been geming mostly agility and crit/stam for socket bonuses. Did i miss something?

Hunters only use Spell Pen for their PvP sets to get around resistances provided by GotW, Auras, etc. due to the majority of their damage coming from Explosive Shot or Chimera Shot.

UKM · 09/30/09, 8:47 PM

See that's what i figured, but i saw a hunter from Ensidia having every socket gemed for spell pen in PvE gear.....I was totally confused on what was going on. His spec was set up for PvE as well....So i was completely confused on what was going on. Thanks for clarifying

Sollod · 10/01/09, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Scraps

Kill Shot does indeed have a minimum range again. The good news is that it now properly matches the tooltip and is actually 5 yards as opposed to when it read 5, but was functionally 8 yards.

Regarding LnL procs, it does feel like it procs much less often but that is purely anecdotal at this point. The above stated math doesn't seem very conclusive either. 1% lower procrate? That doesn't seem like an intentional change. I feel like it has more to do with the cooldown.

I noticed that a trap proccing LnL still seems to be on a separate initial cooldown as Black Arrow ticks, but only if the trap procs first. For example, if a trap procs LnL, a Black Arrow tick can proc LnL again before the 22 second cooldown.

However, it still seems that Black Arrow's tick procs apply the cooldown to a trap proc, meaning if a Black Arrow procs LnL and I try to trap within 22 seconds, LnL will not proc.. With this in mind it may be advantageous to start a fight like FC with a Freezing Arrow placed near the mobs (this is what I do, anyway).

Can anyone else confirm this behavior?

I can. Tonight on heroic faction champs I was noticing it a few times. I got a few back to back procs of it with trap then BA, but one time when I noticed a BA LnL proc go off I went in to put a trap down to get one a few seconds after. LnL didn't proc then. So, what you suggested is most likely true.

sodatheugly · 10/01/09, 4:58 AM

Hi I'm just wondering about what the optimal time spent in Viper is for a Sv hunter. I haven't managed to plow through all the posts yet, but so far I haven't found anything that is specific enough for what I'd like to know. My question is really about whether it is better to switch to Viper until I've recovered 100% mana, or to some other percentage such as 50%, 70%, 80% max mana etc, in a 10 man raid and to a lesser degree, in a 25 man (I almost never OOM in a 25 man except of really loooong fights).

I was thinking that in longer fights (maybe XT Hard mode), staying in viper til 100% mana is possibly better, and for shorter fights (erm...XT normal?) going to <100% is better in terms of efficiency, but that's just what I hypothesize. Does anyone happen to have experiences to share to validate/invalidate this hypothesis?

Furthermore, is it viable to switch back to Dhawk for Es ticks, then back to viper for mana regen, and back to Dhawk again every time Es cd is up? Or is that unnecessary or even counter-productive?

I'm inclined to do an experiment to simulate long and short fights with using viper to various percentages of max mana as well as for switching back and forth for Es ticks, but I want to be sure I'm not needlessly replicating previous findings. Hope you guys can shed some light on this topic for me =)

SpartanKillian · 10/01/09, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by sodatheugly

Hi I'm just wondering about what the optimal time spent in Viper is for a Sv hunter. I haven't managed to plow through all the posts yet, but so far I haven't found anything that is specific enough for what I'd like to know. My question is really about whether it is better to switch to Viper until I've recovered 100% mana, or to some other percentage such as 50%, 70%, 80% max mana etc, in a 10 man raid and to a lesser degree, in a 25 man (I almost never OOM in a 25 man except of really loooong fights).

I was thinking that in longer fights (maybe XT Hard mode), staying in viper til 100% mana is possibly better, and for shorter fights (erm...XT normal?) going to <100% is better in terms of efficiency, but that's just what I hypothesize. Does anyone happen to have experiences to share to validate/invalidate this hypothesis?

Furthermore, is it viable to switch back to Dhawk for Es ticks, then back to viper for mana regen, and back to Dhawk again every time Es cd is up? Or is that unnecessary or even counter-productive?

I'm inclined to do an experiment to simulate long and short fights with using viper to various percentages of max mana as well as for switching back and forth for Es ticks, but I want to be sure I'm not needlessly replicating previous findings. Hope you guys can shed some light on this topic for me =)

Given that you'll ideally end a fight at or close to 0 mana, it's about timing things correctly more than hitting certain percentages, in my opinion. In long, fairly drawn-out fights, like XT hard mode, then there's no real drawback to going into Viper up to 100% if you find yourself going dry quickly (and assuming you're not on spark duty). Other fights are a little trickier. In Twins or Jaraxxus hardmode, for example, you know you need to be able to deal burst damage at certain times so it's obviously better to Viper right before these windows instead of worrying about hitting X%. It's more significant to line up your Viper time around fight-based events and yours various CDs.

Thetalisker · 10/01/09, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by sodatheugly

My question is really about whether it is better to switch to Viper until I've recovered 100% mana, or to some other percentage such as 50%, 70%, 80% max mana etc

That depends. If you're in a fight where you go OOM when the boss at 40% HP, that means your mana has lasted the first 60%. Assuming mana consumption stays the same throughout the fight, you'd only need roughly 70% (40/60) of your mana to be able to finish him off. This way you'll spend as little time as possible in Viper.

Furthermore, is it viable to switch back to Dhawk for Es ticks, then back to viper for mana regen, and back to Dhawk again every time Es cd is up? Or is that unnecessary or even counter-productive?

That's absolutely viable - switching aspects is instant, so you're not missing out on any cooldowns. It can however make for an awkward rotation. You might consider just staying in Viper to get your mana back ASAP so you can basically forget about that afterwards and focus on your shots again - unless you get a LNL proc, in which case switching to Dragonhawk is the only sensible thing to do.

On fights where the boss is close to his demise, you'd be popping a mana-potions, of course... ;-)

GeneticFreak49 · 10/01/09, 3:42 PM

Just happened to noticed a recent post about Spell Penetration for Survival Hunter. I wouldn't think you would need any for PVE/Raid type situations. I am getting my gear together now to start focusing on Arena/PVP situations. What is the right total, if anyone has had any testing? I am also setting my macros to the following combination's.

/castsequence reset=1 Explosive Shot, Tranquilizing Shot. This seems to work pretty good because it resets if I don't spam it. Was also wondering if I added just Kill Shot, or Scatter Shot at the end just for continuation.

/castsequence reset=1 Serpent Sting, Aimed Shot

/castsequence Frost Trap, Snake Trap, Disengage

I also have a Hunter's Mark, shoot off my trinkets, pet abilities macro

I have Freezing Trap, Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Disengage, W. Sting, Scatter Shot, Steady Shot, all on separate buttons.

I have not tried a mouse over macro, or any cast random macros.

Any kind of help would be appreciated.

Krellmax · 10/01/09, 7:00 PM

The last time I looked at the top Arena hunters, they had two or three +20 Spell Penetration gems. Some had two, some had three. It might be personal preference more than anything else. Also, that previous poster who said he saw someone with all Spell Penetration probably confused it with Armor Penetration. Nobody in their right mind would gem all Spell Penetration.

Furnurgler · 10/01/09, 8:29 PM

75 is the max for PvP hunters. This is suficient to counter resistances such as that given by Improved Mark of the Wild. 70 for most Pally resistances.

sodatheugly · 10/01/09, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by SpartanKillian

Given that you'll ideally end a fight at or close to 0 mana, it's about timing things correctly more than hitting certain percentages, in my opinion. In long, fairly drawn-out fights, like XT hard mode, then there's no real drawback to going into Viper up to 100% if you find yourself going dry quickly (and assuming you're not on spark duty).

Mmm I agree there's no real drawback, but I was also wondering if there is a percentage of mana that results in the least time spent in viper even in long fights, i.e. the % max mana that results in the lowest dps drop. In a XT hard mode (sans spark duty) 10 man I find that with replenishment, I go OOM too fast if I get to 50% mana, but there's not too much of a time difference between 80% and 100%. I may be wrong but I've noticed that there seems to be a point where the time gains plateau off somewhat due to replenishment uptime.

Originally Posted by SpartanKillian

In Twins or Jaraxxus hardmode, for example, you know you need to be able to deal burst damage at certain times so it's obviously better to Viper right before these windows instead of worrying about hitting X%. It's more significant to line up your Viper time around fight-based events and yours various CDs.

Hmm yeah it definitely makes sense to viper up to sufficient mana for sudden burst requirements. I hadn't really considered that, thanks.

Originally Posted by Thetalisker

That depends. If you're in a fight where you go OOM when the boss at 40% HP, that means your mana has lasted the first 60%. Assuming mana consumption stays the same throughout the fight, you'd only need roughly 70% (40/60) of your mana to be able to finish him off. This way you'll spend as little time as possible in Viper.

I hadn't thought of that either!

Originally Posted by Thetalisker

That's absolutely viable - switching aspects is instant, so you're not missing out on any cooldowns. It can however make for an awkward rotation. You might consider just staying in Viper to get your mana back ASAP so you can basically forget about that afterwards and focus on your shots again - unless you get a LNL proc, in which case switching to Dragonhawk is the only sensible thing to do.

On fights where the boss is close to his demise, you'd be popping a mana-potions, of course... ;-)

Heh I was thinking it might get messy, switching back and forth. My mana would be jumping up and down like crazy. However, given perfect timing and switching, I wonder if that would result in a dps increase or there would be no significant differences...

I don't think I'll try that though, seems like a lot of work and training to get that good at coordination ^^

Nodrak · 10/02/09, 5:09 AM

Originally Posted by Furnurgler

75 is the max for PvP hunters. This is suficient to counter resistances such as that given by Improved Mark of the Wild. 70 for most Pally resistances.

Well, Paladin Aura's are 130 Resistance at level 80, and they can stack with Mark. The 'cap' for a Druid and Paladin team would be 205, but even then there is a paladin talent to double the Aura's effect for a short time, giving a total of 335. Not many healing paladins will use a resistance aura though, so keep that in mind. The shaman totems are also 130 resistance (and stack with mark too).

Thetalisker · 10/02/09, 6:32 AM

Originally Posted by sodatheugly

However, given perfect timing and switching, I wonder if that would result in a dps increase or there would be no significant differences...

It would give a DPS increase over firing them off in Viper, but also don't forget about your other shots. If you switch out of Viper all the time, it will take longer to get back to a decent level of mana. So what about your Serpent Sting and Black Arrow? If you use them while in Viper they do less damage, and since it will take longer to get your mana back to full, you'll likely be losing more DPS on those than you would if you didn't switch.

I haven't tested or simulated any of this, mind you, but I myself stay in Viper unless I get a LNL proc.

cutfang · 10/02/09, 7:27 AM

Originally Posted by Nodrak

Well, Paladin Aura's are 130 Resistance at level 80, and they can stack with Mark. The 'cap' for a Druid and Paladin team would be 205, but even then there is a paladin talent to double the Aura's effect for a short time, giving a total of 335. Not many healing paladins will use a resistance aura though, so keep that in mind. The shaman totems are also 130 resistance (and stack with mark too).

As a main paladin, I can assure you that MotW does not stack with resistance auras. We can double it for 10 seconds to 260 resistance once every 2 minutes. Nor do shaman totems stack, as I have seen in several Onyxia and Ignis raids where I have never seen my Fire Resistance go over 130 or 260 with Aura Mastery up.

edit: Unless spell penetration ignores that?