in our raid, fortunately, hatefuls are targeted to 50+k HP bear, so my puny 19k are no threat and I trapdance on Patchwerk all the time. As to Gluth, no on prevents you from putting down voluntary traps even when your are not assigned to trapping duty
This is my problem with trap dancing at the moment, some fights the risk just outweighs the DPS boost.
...
Patchwerk: Hateful Strike is a pain, and its hard to convince and remind you healers not to heal you, it's is hard enough to remind them not to heal melee sometimes lol.
Please remember that Hateful Strike is targeted based on threat and hit points. If you Feign Death before running in to drop the trap, you won't eat a Hateful, because you won't be eligible for it based on threat.
The reason your healers shouldn't be healing melee is because no one except your tanks should take a single point of damage in the fight.
I think that really depends on what is competitive in your run. My guild is not pulling the crazy numbers that I read with people doing 6-8k dps.
In a 25-man patchwerk last night while trapdancing (on Live) I was pulling about 4200 dps until I caught a hateful strike.
I was top until I died. That wound up to be a wipe, so on the next go I stayed at range.
With 1/3 in Sniper Training and standing at 30-35 yds per RangeDisplay I wound up at 4036 dps. The next 2 highest were both Shadow Priests at 3379 and 3226 dps. Also, since I switched to dual wield my skill is too low to hit with a raptor strike while dropping the trap. edit: I only got 1 LnL proc from Serpent Sting in 4 mins 35 secs.
3/3 Sniper ...should... have gotten me pretty close to trap dancing.
Self-buffed only, and ignoring LnL procs on PTR I saw consistently higher dps numbers weaving Aimed into my rotation. I think others have seen the opposite, so it bears more testing IMO.
5.1k with sniper training, not using trap dancing.
I'm not too keen on doing trap dancing myself, and with the new changes to LnL I wonder if it will make using serpent sting less likely. Either way blizzard are still looking at it.
Patchwerk: Hateful Strike is a pain, and its hard to convince and remind you healers not to heal you, it's is hard enough to remind them not to heal melee sometimes lol.
Except to take a Hateful Strike as a Hunter you'd have to be in 2nd or 3rd on the threatlist and have more HP than the Offtanks at the same time, very unlikely to happen considering Hateful Strike also gives the offtanks threat every time they are hit by it. The chances of a Hunter or the Melee taking a Hateful strike once the offtanks start taking them is low.
Those are impressive number, Nam. What is the reason for operating below the to-hit cap when you could fix that by dropping some points into Focused Aim (yes, there is a thread where people are theorizing that the talent affects crit but I'm not buying into it). The WWS report shows that you missed almost 3% of your autos and a little over 1% of your Steadies. Just curious as to the thought process.
5.1k with sniper training, not using trap dancing.
I'm not too keen on doing trap dancing myself, and with the new changes to LnL I wonder if it will make using serpent sting less likely. Either way blizzard are still looking at it.
What I don't like is the fact that sometimes LnL will proc multiple times in a little amount of time and other times it won't proc at all. But nothing really you could do about that.
Anyways, what's your shot rotation? Also do you use any range check type mods?
5.1k with sniper training, not using trap dancing.
I'm not too keen on doing trap dancing myself, and with the new changes to LnL I wonder if it will make using serpent sting less likely. Either way blizzard are still looking at it.
I'm seeing pretty similar numbers at the moment, with very similar gear and pet choice. I have been specced into resourcefulness, but on weeks where we're chasing Immortal I don't risk trap dancing on patch.
Using a simple priority queue, Explosive / Kill -> Serpent -> Steady, filling LnL proc gaps with aimed plus sting refreshes/mark refreshes/steady.
I've been working on trap dancing, but I seem to get inferior results with it, and I have a question for those who get on well with it. When you're trap dancing and you've darted in, do you fire explosive on it's CD as soon as you have range (which is invariably before the LnL proc goes up for me, so I end up filling the LnL shots in the last 4 seconds of the proc), or do you just wait for what feels like nearly a whole GCD waiting for the proc to come up before firing anything?
I operate at 7% hit, because I assume that I will be getting the draenei 1% hit. I guess during the fight the shaman either died, or moved out of range. I don't bother with more than 7% because of that. The build I have at the moment is still not optimal, and there are still 6-7 pieces of gear that I would consider best in slot. So there is plenty of room for improvement.
The biggest thing I did this week was install a mod, class timers, that would monitor serpent sting, and explosive shot on the target. This enables to to pick the right time to follow up with another explosive shot when lock and load procs, and when you have another hunter in the raid it can be confusing as to whether your serpent sting is up or not.
In terms of shot rotation, priority explosive shot, followed by serpent sting, and then steady shots. I could get a little more using aimed shot.
I've been working on trap dancing, but I seem to get inferior results with it, and I have a question for those who get on well with it. When you're trap dancing and you've darted in, do you fire explosive on it's CD as soon as you have range (which is invariably before the LnL proc goes up for me, so I end up filling the LnL shots in the last 4 seconds of the proc), or do you just wait for what feels like nearly a whole GCD waiting for the proc to come up before firing anything?
I typically fire my ES going in, lay my (usually Immo) trap, then use Aimed as I run back out; the remaining 1.5s before ES comes back up is normally enough time for LnL to proc, and I'm ready to start using ES, wait .5, ES, wait .5, ES.
Looks like they are trying to push us to just rely on LnL procs from methods other than trap-dancing....
From the latest PTR Build Notes:
* Lock and Load now has a 3/7/10% chance to proc on periodic damage. (Up from 2/4/6%)
Did they change the LnL cooldown?
Napkin maths says that the average proc time is 30 seconds + cooldown time for 'pure serpent' LnL procs... but if 'periodic damage' includes Explosive Shot*, then it drops to 12 seconds + cooldown time... which, with a 30-second cooldown, isn't significantly worse than the flat 30 seconds you get from trapping.
* Although it acts like a DoT, there's some evidence that it acts more like a pseudo-channeled spell... so ES = DoT may not be a given.
Cooldown is still 30 seconds and explosive shot doesn't appear to be proccing it. Spent a few minutes autoshooting/explosive shot at a test dummy and no procs. Expslovie shot can crit (and proc/gft/replenishment) so makes sense it's not counted as a normal dot.
This must be their response to all the trap dancing talk that has been going on. On average there is no reason to run into trap to proc LnL. I wouldn't say this if they hadn't implied the 30sec CD for LnL otherwise trap dancing would still be beneficial.
I spent some time on the PTR testing explosive shot. Taking the spreadsheet's interpretation of explosive shot as my starting point, hit cap for it would be 17%. I tested about 1000 ticks (332 casts) with 270 hit (just over 8%) and no FA, so I should have expected some full resists (about 9%). I did see partial resists though (3.6%) and blocks (0.3%). I even saw the same tick be both resisted and blocked which makes me wonder if it passes through two hit tables?
As I understand it, a full resist will be shown in WWS as a miss. Considering all of this, I would have to say that the spreadsheet is incorrect and explosive shot is completely capped at physical hit cap (8%) - although still subject to mitigation in the form of blocks and partial resists.
Originally Posted by Florrie
What flavour of hipster racism am i missing today?
5.1k with sniper training, not using trap dancing.
I'm not too keen on doing trap dancing myself, and with the new changes to LnL I wonder if it will make using serpent sting less likely. Either way blizzard are still looking at it.
Im also not using trap dancing and im pulling a 4700+ dps on Patch atm. Im looking into taking 1p from EW (going 2/3) and 1p from HP (going 2/5) and putting it into Sniper training, have only 1/3 atm.
Why would you use Serpen Sting less likely? Didnt get that.
Our WWS I think i do some nice numbers for beeing a SV hunter but your numbers are insane on some fights whitch i dont get.
Also, would like to ask the rest, how much agi do you gain in raids (fully buffed)?
I hit almost 2500 agi with the Greatness card (90 agi + 300 agi on proc) with best food and elixer.
When it comes to shot rotation i use SSting > ES > Aimed > Steady, then i just weave in what ever instant is up (ES prio) and just use steady inbetween. But im not sure if Aimed is good to use 100% in the rotation, if u look at Nams WWS, he sais he dosnt use Aimed that much or trapdancing and still get those numbers i start to wonder if Aimed is worth inserting.
Atm im using these glyphs:
Steady
Imp Sting (for longer stings)
Imp AotH
If i go with only 2p in AotH, is it every worth it? Have seen some ppl have used a Huntermark glyph (removed mine when i went SV). Any tips on what i should insert? Or is Imp AotH good enought.
I spent some time on the PTR testing explosive shot. Taking the spreadsheet's interpretation of explosive shot as my starting point, hit cap for it would be 17%. I tested about 1000 ticks (332 casts) with 270 hit (just over 8%) and no FA, so I should have expected some full resists (about 9%). I did see partial resists though (3.6%) and blocks (0.3%). I even saw the same tick be both resisted and blocked which makes me wonder if it passes through two hit tables?
As I understand it, a full resist will be shown in WWS as a miss. Considering all of this, I would have to say that the spreadsheet is incorrect and explosive shot is completely capped at physical hit cap (8%) - although still subject to mitigation in the form of blocks and partial resists.
Did some testing with Explosive Shot and found the following:
Explosive Shot itself can miss, so no debuff and no 3 explosive rounds
The 3 explosive rounds can individually miss.
The 3 explosive rounds can be partially resisted (not sure if full resisted can occur?).
Explosive Shot (and the three rounds) use 8% hit cap
So in short, I can confirm what you saw.
However, I don't see where the spreadsheet is wrong? It showed 100% hit modifier since I was hit capped at 8%.
Originally Posted by Skillstep
Why is it that other classes feel whole and simple and fluid yet hunter feels like directing a symphony as a paraplegic midget with tourettes?
Did some testing with Explosive Shot and found the following:
Explosive Shot itself can miss, so no debuff and no 3 explosive rounds
The 3 explosive rounds can individually miss.
The 3 explosive rounds can be partially resisted (not sure if full resisted can occur?).
Explosive Shot (and the three rounds) use 8% hit cap
So in short, I can confirm what you saw.
However, I don't see where the spreadsheet is wrong? It showed 100% hit modifier since I was hit capped at 8%.
Yes, spreadsheet assumes hit cap of 8% for Explosive shot. However it also assumes 9% full resist chance (and 4,5% partial resist) even when hit capped. Getting more hit will reduce the chance of full resists.
I have been raiding as Survival the whole time so far but I don't remember ever seeing a full resist. Only partial resists and even they are very small. At the moment I only have one valid report, from last Sunday in Naxx and Sartharion: Wow Web Stats. Against the bosses almost 40% of my explosive shots got partial resists, but the total amount of resisted damage is only 2,6%. Other raids have shown similar numbers. So it looks like the resist mechanics in game are quite a bit different than what the spreadsheet models.
The exact model at the moment in the spreadsheet is a hit roll with the physical hit cap followed by a hit roll with the spell hit cap followed by a partial resist roll assuming 24 resistance on the target.
Since your tests show that there is no usage of the spell hit cap involved the shot is currently underestimated by a considerable amount.
I wonder though if the partial resist calculation which results in an average reduction of 4.5% is still correct. A short search showed me some posts that seemed to think it was 6% but that were old posts and none with real tests.
Arcane Shot on the other hand seems to have no partial resist damage reduction in the spreadsheet.
I'd like to continue the discussion about "is it better to skill FA or to get your hit from equip".
Well at the moment while each PTR-patch contains a change of Lock'n'Load it's quite hard to say if Trapdancing will make sense once 3.08 goes live or if it doesn't. If it ends up being a good option it seems like 1/15/51 will be the best option with 2 random SV-points for your personal taste and 4 more points you can put where you want. If Trapdancing will be no option, because the disadvantages of getting into melee and planting a trap outweigh the advantages of getting a few more L'n'Ls you'll probably end up with a 1/15/52 spec with 3 more points.
So whatever you chose, you'll end up with 3-4 points. Now you have different options like putting more than 2 points into EW or HP.
You could spend more points into imp AotH to improve your Autoshot-Damge or to drop your imp AotH Glyph. But your Autoshot-Damage is not that important that imp AotH makes much sense after you reached the Haste Softcap and there is not a real good alternative to the Glyph for a raiding SV-Hunter. I could only imagine someone to try out Glyph of Rapid Fire or Glyph of Hunters Mark.
Some people spend their points for improved Stings. But typically your Serpentsting does about 3-5 % of your DPS. So 10 % of it will be 0,3-0,5 % of your damage. Not that great i think.
Next thing that comes in my mind is putting them into Rapid Killing. If you have a good timing to put Rapid Fire between imp AotH Procs, Bloodlust and perhaps Haste-Trinket-Procs you'll improve your Autoshot and your SS damage a little bit. But when 2 of them are up the same time it looses some of it's power.
Efficiency might be an option for 10-man raids, where you are missing some of the manareg-support. But as it's hard to see how efficient efficiency is, i never got some numbers on how much efficiency increases a hunters dps because he has do spend less time in AotV.
After looking on all of this options none of them fully convinced me. Therefor dropping some Hit from your equip and compensate it with FA doesn't to seem that bad for me.
Some people spend their points for improved Stings. But typically your Serpentsting does about 3-5 % of your DPS. So 10 % of it will be 0,3-0,5 % of your damage. Not that great i think.
The thought about getting improved SrS isn't about the increased damage from the Glyph; it is not having to refresh serpent sting for another ES shot cycle, thereby being able to use more damaging shots rather than refreshing the DoT.
The thought about getting improved SrS isn't about the increased damage from the Glyph; it is not having to refresh serpent sting for another ES shot cycle, thereby being able to use more damaging shots rather than refreshing the DoT.
You are mixing the talent Improved Stings with the Glyph of Serpent Sting. Glyph indeed increases the duration of Serpent Sting, talent only increases SrS's damage and adds some dispell resistance for mainly PvP purposes.
After looking on all of this options none of them fully convinced me. Therefor dropping some Hit from your equip and compensate it with FA doesn't to seem that bad for me.
It's a very interesting, well-supported thought exercise you make. But do you realise that by doing that you're bound to gain even less than 0,3-0,5 % of your damage - or even risk loosing DPS?
His scorpid seems to be doing about 28% of his total DPS. Scorpids of course are 'OP' at the moment, so for this thought exercize let's imagine a pet that does a modest 10% of your DPS:
Now take the difference between your pet missing 1% more and doing 1% more damage with Serpent Sting: Then imagine what kind of gear upgrade (the better gear you equiped in favour of wearing hit) you need to compensate for that AND in fact topple it.
To me that does not feel like a workable option, but perhaps you can show me a piece of gear that would make this worth it?
Dawnhoof, while your reasoning makes sense, current 213+ itemlevel gear makes it somewhat redundant. I assume from 1 point investment in IAotH that you are not targeting soft haste cap via gear. But all the decent gear without haste usually has +hit on it in addition to +crit. You will therefore collect hit cap without much effort and sacrifices which leaves any number of points in FA pointless
Im also not using trap dancing and im pulling a 4700+ dps on Patch atm. Im looking into taking 1p from EW (going 2/3) and 1p from HP (going 2/5) and putting it into Sniper training, have only 1/3 atm.
Why would you use Serpen Sting less likely? Didnt get that.
Our WWS I think i do some nice numbers for beeing a SV hunter but your numbers are insane on some fights whitch i dont get.
Also, would like to ask the rest, how much agi do you gain in raids (fully buffed)?
I hit almost 2500 agi with the Greatness card (90 agi + 300 agi on proc) with best food and elixer.
When it comes to shot rotation i use SSting > ES > Aimed > Steady, then i just weave in what ever instant is up (ES prio) and just use steady inbetween. But im not sure if Aimed is good to use 100% in the rotation, if u look at Nams WWS, he sais he dosnt use Aimed that much or trapdancing and still get those numbers i start to wonder if Aimed is worth inserting.
Atm im using these glyphs:
Steady
Imp Sting (for longer stings)
Imp AotH
If i go with only 2p in AotH, is it every worth it? Have seen some ppl have used a Huntermark glyph (removed mine when i went SV). Any tips on what i should insert? Or is Imp AotH good enought.
Priority Explosive, simply means that if I have to choose between serpent sting and explosive shot, I went with explosive first, and then serpent sting after. In all cases steady shot was an afterthought. I'm at around 1.9k-2k agi when all my procs go off. I was using might thoughts and agility along with 30 crit food, pet had kibler bits.
Yes, I'm aware that my scorpid did a significant amount of the damage, however, I don't think that scorpids are going to be nerfed that much.
01/14/09, 4:16 PM
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