I think what he means is, take 2/2 Rapid Killing so you can pop Rapid Fire more often. Or, rather, instead of using it for Offense, use it for mana-gains. I've done this before - switch to Viper, pop RF, and spam steady shot to full mana.
Yeah, that's what I meant... (posting too late...) I put one point there, and one in GFtT to make my 2/18/51.
I'm doing mostly 10-mans, and pug 25 mans, so I can't count on ret pallys and such to be around to keep the mana up.
Am I loosing dps without aimed? I'm a BM refugee, but even though I don't really know what I'm doing yet, I'm seeing the big dps increase over a nerfed BM-arcane build.
Am I loosing dps without aimed? I'm a BM refugee, but even though I don't really know what I'm doing yet, I'm seeing the big dps increase over a nerfed BM-arcane build.
First, it's 'losing." Loosing is to let loose.
Aimed does more damage than Steady Shot, as we have said many times. Therefore, replacing a Steady with an Aimed shot every 10 secs or so is a good dps increase. Also, as has been stated many times as well, it gives you the option of another instant shot for all the mobile fights.
I'm confused as to how LnL procs really increase DPS. If we look at a slice of a rotation like this:
0: ES
1.6: SS
3.2: SS
4.8: SS
6.4: ES
Compared to when a LnL procs
0: ES (first LnL charge used)
1.6: SS
3.2: ES (second LnL charge used)
4.8: SS
6.4: ES
You seem to get one extra ES, unless I'm missing something. Yet it has to take at least, what, 4 seconds to get into and out of position.
You get the damage from immolation trap and the extra ES, but lose several shots in your rotation. I suppose it could be worth it, but it does seem like an awful amount of work for it.
Survival seems quite a bit higher to me than BM ever did. I can't say for sure until I see if it's going to scale as well as BM did since I've only done one boss so far, however on the heroic dummy I am doing 15-20% more dps than I did as BM. I am using a Wasp and it seems to be doing 13-15% of my damage.
I beat my old record on heroic Sartharion last night though, so that's promising. I feel a lot more empowered in PVP now... really nice to finally have some true burst damage. I felt a little guilty til i remembered I'm not the only class with crazy burst damage in a resilience-starved world right now.
When you say "you feel more empowered in PVP now" do you mean in BG or arena? I'm doing alot of arena and that was one my concern about switching to survival. I feel like ill be crushed once again by those melee class with snare(Rogue, warrior, DK) I had no problem at all to do deal with these classe when I was BM with BW. Now im scared to try this in a arena match!!
Any of you got any feedback about survival hunter in arena ?
Any of you got any feedback about survival hunter in arena ?
It is a lot more fun to play. Very good survivability, good cc (scatter, traps, w.sting), nice burst damage output.
Put in the correct glyphs and it is much better to play then BM onebutton smashing hunter.
I'm confused as to how LnL procs really increase DPS. If we look at a slice of a rotation like this:
0: ES
1.6: SS
3.2: SS
4.8: SS
6.4: ES
Compared to when a LnL procs
0: ES (first LnL charge used)
1.6: SS
3.2: ES (second LnL charge used)
4.8: SS
6.4: ES
You seem to get one extra ES, unless I'm missing something. Yet it has to take at least, what, 4 seconds to get into and out of position.
You get the damage from immolation trap and the extra ES, but lose several shots in your rotation. I suppose it could be worth it, but it does seem like an awful amount of work for it.
If you're at about 5-6 yards from target, then even targets with small hitboxes, it only takes 2-3 secs to move into and out of range. How do you fit than in cooldowns? Simple:
0.0 (before moving) Explosive Shot
1.5 Lay whichever trap works for you
3.0 Likely still backing up or getting into position, Aimed Shot
4.5 Should be back in position, Steady/Serpent
6.0 ES
8.0 ES
10.0 ES (since I usually wait the extra .5 secs to avoid clipping rather than spacing in between, unless my Hunter's Mark is about to fall off)
Rinse and repeat; I find it to be a very simple way to increase dps on many bosses, as long as you are careful to avoid Steady Shot overmuch on movement-heavy bosses.
I'm confused as to how LnL procs really increase DPS. If we look at a slice of a rotation like this:
0: ES
1.6: SS
3.2: SS
4.8: SS
6.4: ES
Compared to when a LnL procs
0: ES (first LnL charge used)
1.6: SS
3.2: ES (second LnL charge used)
4.8: SS
6.4: ES
You seem to get one extra ES, unless I'm missing something. Yet it has to take at least, what, 4 seconds to get into and out of position.
You get the damage from immolation trap and the extra ES, but lose several shots in your rotation. I suppose it could be worth it, but it does seem like an awful amount of work for it.
That is it precisely, I do not trap dance, because of several reasons.
1. Mob hit boxes are often hard to hit, in my experience you have to hit dead center or close to it to enable the trap.
2. Moving in and out lowers your dps, you lose auto shots.
3. 2s arming time, on bosses that move it can move out of range of the trap resulting in wasted mana, and wasted dps time.
4. Melee range is a dangerous spot, we are a ranged class, it smacks of stupidity since we really do not have any defenses from the crap that bosses throw out at that range.
I think, however, point 4 needs to be reiterated. If your dead your not dpsing. I'm pretty sure everyone has been in a raid where a mob was re-adjusted and did some melee related attack (cleave, breath, tail whip) and some of your melee bought it. Hunters are not supposed to be in melee.
I haven't arena'd yet, but just doing WG I felt much more powerful than I ever did as BM. ES + L&L = as much burst as the burst-heavy classes can put out but at 41 yds. Surv also has a lot more control and if my pet dies (which it does, fast) it doesn't matter a great deal.
I plan to try arena this week but last night I barely had enough time to get all my enchants and gems in order for the naxx raid. Will need to respec. Luckily I already have my crab at 80.
Frost and freezing trap both trigger LnL. At least AFAIK, but frost does not trigger the cooldown.
One of the changes they made to LnL was that they added a 30 second cooldown. Which clashes with resourcefullness and the pvp set bonus. But on live frost does not trigger the "cooldown", it still triggers the LnL proc so you can actually have more than 1 LnL proc every 30 seconds, you just need to use frost trap to activate it.
This actually seems pretty crazy to me. Does this mean that in any fight where you have adds or mobs that are not immune you could potentially get "unlimited" LnL?!
Does this mean that in arena when you lay a frost trap every time an opponent triggers it you get LnL? No cooldown?
I think think of several situations where this would allow you to spam ES, almost like BM hunters spam steady shot. Plus it could be cast like that on the move.
Heck since LnL is only 18 talents to max out you potentially have this unlimited LnL (in certain situations) with any combo of -/-/18 using mana free, no ammo, no cooldown, Arcane Shots.
That is it precisely, I do not trap dance, because of several reasons.
1. Mob hit boxes are often hard to hit, in my experience you have to hit dead center or close to it to enable the trap.
2. Moving in and out lowers your dps, you lose auto shots.
3. 2s arming time, on bosses that move it can move out of range of the trap resulting in wasted mana, and wasted dps time.
4. Melee range is a dangerous spot, we are a ranged class, it smacks of stupidity since we really do not have any defenses from the crap that bosses throw out at that range.
I think, however, point 4 needs to be reiterated. If your dead your not dpsing. I'm pretty sure everyone has been in a raid where a mob was re-adjusted and did some melee related attack (cleave, breath, tail whip) and some of your melee bought it. Hunters are not supposed to be in melee.
It really is all a matter of preference; there are obviously bosses where trapdancing is more dangerous than others. That being said, I have found that most bosses, if timed carefully, trapdancing provides nice dps boosts at crucial intervals, especially if I can time it to trinket procs. Of course we don't do damage if we're dead, but learning to play close-up on bosses is also just an adjustment of playstyle.
In regard to losing auto-shot damage: Ok? So, in my movement I lose 2 auto-shots on average. For me, that's ~2k damage. I gain 2 Explosive Shots, which now buffed up give me combined 9.6k-21k damage. That is a possible 10X return, and minimum 4X return on damage, not to mention the slight damage boost of my Immo Trap going off on the boss. Also, most bosses, once a group learns the boss, tend to be relatively static fights. I'm not saying the don't move, but they don't bounce around terribly either. Boss hit-boxes are often decent-sized, and if all else fails, place the trap near where you see the boss moving to occassionally; not as effective or efficient however.
Try it for a time, instead of simply assuming; trapdancing can be quite easy for a hunter that is skilled at it, with minimal risk involved. After all, like you said, we aren't a melee class; that is why my little rotation above spends no more than 1-2 seconds every 30 in melee range. Planning, forethought and watching the boss's patterns intelligently can all easily keep a cleave-death, or other similar deaths, from happening often, or even at all. After all, Rogues don't have much more boss-survivability than we do at close-range; I've found that if you hang around behind them and move with them, finding boss blind spots can be incredibly easy.
I have a question regarding SrS application. From the best possible DPS thread, SrS is top priority. Giving my high non uniform latency, when would be the best time to reapply SrS? Right before it expires before a ES (instead of SS) or after the SS and ES?
This actually seems pretty crazy to me. Does this mean that in any fight where you have adds or mobs that are not immune you could potentially get "unlimited" LnL?!
Does this mean that in arena when you lay a frost trap every time an opponent triggers it you get LnL? No cooldown?
I think think of several situations where this would allow you to spam ES, almost like BM hunters spam steady shot. Plus it could be cast like that on the move.
Heck since LnL is only 18 talents to max out you potentially have this unlimited LnL (in certain situations) with any combo of -/-/18 using mana free, no ammo, no cooldown, Arcane Shots.
Frankly that seems rather over powered.
No. IF frost trap is bugged, then it will only force a LnL cooldown when it first goes off, not whenever a mob steps on it. Therefore, you can potentially only still trigger a LnL every 24 secs (w/Resourcefullness) and with SrS. I don't fully believe this is the case, however, and am going to test it myself once I get a chance.
I have a question regarding SrS application. From the best possible DPS thread, SrS is top priority. Giving my high non uniform latency, when would be the best time to reapply SrS? Right before it expires before a ES (instead of SS) or after the SS and ES?
SrS should only be applied whenever your instant casts are not available (ES, Aimed, Kill), since they do more damage than it. I usually re-apply SrS shortly before it drops off, if that fits into my shot cycle; otherwise, just after it drops off. Try the SrS glyph too, though; it extends the length of SrS by 6 secs now, and is worth looking into for mana conservation on longer boss-fights; it's an extra entire ES cycle you don't have to worry about it.
Yes, ES should be prioritized over Srp. If you have a choice between ES and Serp, you should always choose ES. Srp's benefits are the 3% dmg and the 10% on steadies. Since you're only casting ES when Serp isn't up, the steady bonus doesn't matter, and getting off an ES 1.5 secs earlier is better than boosting dmg by 3% for 1.5 secs. Basically, always replace a steady with serp, never an ES. It's a small difference, but you should ideally cast ES whenever possible.
I generally refresh Serp after it has worn off because sometimes if I try just before it wears off I get "a more powerful effect is already on the target". This works well because since I'm always replacing steady with the serp, I don't ever have a steady go off when there's no Serp on the target (unless it wears off in the middle of the steady cast).
I did some testing with LnL and traps last night on the "boss" training dummy in Darnassus.
Frost trap doesn't just not trigger the cooldown, it's separate from the cooldown altogether.
I have 2 points in resourcefulness, which lowers the trap cd to 26 sec. If I placed 2 immo traps in succession, the second one wouldn't proc LnL due to the cooldown. However, if I placed the Frost trap after the first immo instead, it would proc every time.
0 sec Immo Trap - LnL Proc
~28 sec (26 sec trap cd + arming time) Any other trap but Frost - No LnL Proc
Well, like most Hunters I repecced to SV last night before our Laggerific Obsidian Sanctum run. I must say that I was impressed overall by the changes.
Here is my guilds WWS report of our attempts(keep in mind we had 10 disconnects with the first 2 attempts with Tenebom up): WWS Loading...
I was running on par with my old MM build. Honestly, I had a lot more fun with the more proactive shot rotations. Lock and Load is the real DPS booster. Laying a trap at the start of a fight for 3 explosive shots is plain ol' awesomeness. My one regret is putting points into arcane shot since it seems to share a timer with explosive shot. I will respec again and redistribute those points to "go for the throat"(1), "focused aim"(1), and "improved stings" (1).
My shot rotation is Hunters mark, Serpent sting, Explosive shot, Aimed shot inbetween spamming my old steady shot macro.
Do you think this is best way to maximize DPS?
Also, here is a cool screen shot I took during our Loatheb fight that night to give you idea of SV attack power(without using Orc Racial). Fun fight !!
There are a few bosses off the top of my head where trap dancing will be a great strategy.... Sartharion when you have to move into melee range because of a lava wave, Thaddius when switching polarities, and Gluth when using a frost trap to help whoever is kiting adds.
I am still not convinced on doing it for traditional encounters though, but I will definitely be trapping when adds are running around.
Did around 5k DPS on a 25 man VoA run. No Warrior tanks for Sunders, missing 10% raid AP buff as well. I also can't comment on 13% spell vulnerability uptime.
I've been considering a spec without Hunting Party though. Just move the 2-3 points to Sniper Training instead, that way I've got the best of all worlds really. Only concerns with Sniper Training is missing Horns and 10% AP buffs, though having Blood DKs as a more common commodity will help since their 10% AP buff has a 45 yard range.
Also we now really only need a Ret Pally + Holy/Prot Pally in the raid, Wisdom seems to not be nearly as important as it was with a BM or MM spec.... which is great because relying on Battle Shouts was a serious pain with their limited range and duration.
So theoretically you can get L&L's from both serp and frost trap.
Yeah, I forgot to mention I tested that, too. I put up a serpent, waited for the LnL proc, and immediately dropped the Frost trap. The LnL proc refreshed.
Does the proc activate on [immune]? I know it doesn't on resists (Immo was resisting a lot for some reason during my tests)
A bit OT, would you reccomend a SV hunter putting 16 agi gems in all slots or go for the 16AP/12STA in the blue sockets for socket bonus?. I.e. : A socket bonus with 8 AP with 16 AP/12Stamina=28AP in total, vs 16 agi. Can't really deside ... I've got 4928 AP with AotH, 33.46% crit.
Also I can tell you that the Glyph of serpent sting had it's bonus doubled, 6 s vs the earlier 3 s, if am correct ^^.
It really is all a matter of preference; there are obviously bosses where trapdancing is more dangerous than others. That being said, I have found that most bosses, if timed carefully, trapdancing provides nice dps boosts at crucial intervals, especially if I can time it to trinket procs. Of course we don't do damage if we're dead, but learning to play close-up on bosses is also just an adjustment of playstyle.
In regard to losing auto-shot damage: Ok? So, in my movement I lose 2 auto-shots on average. For me, that's ~2k damage. I gain 2 Explosive Shots, which now buffed up give me combined 9.6k-21k damage. That is a possible 10X return, and minimum 4X return on damage, not to mention the slight damage boost of my Immo Trap going off on the boss. Also, most bosses, once a group learns the boss, tend to be relatively static fights. I'm not saying the don't move, but they don't bounce around terribly either. Boss hit-boxes are often decent-sized, and if all else fails, place the trap near where you see the boss moving to occassionally; not as effective or efficient however.
Try it for a time, instead of simply assuming; trapdancing can be quite easy for a hunter that is skilled at it, with minimal risk involved. After all, like you said, we aren't a melee class; that is why my little rotation above spends no more than 1-2 seconds every 30 in melee range. Planning, forethought and watching the boss's patterns intelligently can all easily keep a cleave-death, or other similar deaths, from happening often, or even at all. After all, Rogues don't have much more boss-survivability than we do at close-range; I've found that if you hang around behind them and move with them, finding boss blind spots can be incredibly easy.
I'm not assuming anything, I've tried trap dancing for quite some time now. It is just not my cup of tea. My raid group composition is very heavy melee, and another person jumping in and out of melee range is a complication that my raid can do without. I'm not saying that people should not trap dance, but they should be aware of the problems you can have with it.
I believe much earlier in the thread around post 109 there is an analysis of the benefits of trap dancing that those people who wish to trap dance will find thought provoking.
01/21/09, 10:32 AM
[/IMG]
Similar Threads
