The Survival Hunter in WotLK - Page 3

Namarus · 12/08/08, 3:18 PM

Originally Posted by Rivkah

Technically from a strict itemization bonus standpoint, hunters should be better off with 2 1H weapons, because the 1H enchants are superior, especially in the case of the accuracy enchant which is a far greater itemization value than the closest 2H 110 AP enchant (100 points of a pure stat versus the 55 that AP would convert to in value). But it's difficult to find 2 1H weapons that give enough stats to compare to something like Black Ice even with the enchants calculated in, and with the ridiculous cost on the high end enchants (on my server it'd cost you about 2k in mats to enchant one weapon with accuracy at last check), I expect most hunters will be going after the 2H weapons at least for the short term.

I'm still rather surprised they didn't put a 2H limitation on the accuracy enchant since it's obvious from an itemization standpoint that it's way overbudget for a 1H.

I agree with you. 1-handers are the way to go with accuracy on them. However, I do not think I will spend the gold on that enchant until I get a best in slot 1-hander. With lines of rogues after Sinister Revenger, there is always the possibility that Hailstorm is a decent substitute.

KraxisSingular · 12/08/08, 6:26 PM

Originally Posted by Namarus

Any agility 2-hander right now is great for a tanking deathknight. Hell with the dps that weapons like Black Ice etc.. put out, ret paladins are taking them. (Which has happened to me.) They are not ideal weapons but they are up there in terms of dps, 2nd or 3rd best in slot for them. So plan accordingly.

Well the point is the Wraith Spear is terribly light on Stam, something like less than half of most Strength twohanders. And as far as I have understood DKs scale better defensively with Strength (for Parry) than they do with Agility for Dodge. So that would make the spear a rather poor choice.
A ret is obviously going to like it since Paladins have one of the best Agi-crit conversions. But it still not optimzed for them.

Now if the spear is actually any good for us is another matter, and 2-hander vs 1-handers is a completely different game again.

Regarding the enchants, I think the Accuracy is supposed to be a 'passive' version of the proc AP enchant. At least this time we are given a truly good passive enchant, which is the best we can hope for if they won't give us ranged procs.

Namarus · 12/08/08, 6:46 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Well the point is the Wraith Spear is terribly light on Stam, something like less than half of most Strength twohanders. And as far as I have understood DKs scale better defensively with Strength (for Parry) than they do with Agility for Dodge. So that would make the spear a rather poor choice.
A ret is obviously going to like it since Paladins have one of the best Agi-crit conversions. But it still not optimzed for them.

Now if the spear is actually any good for us is another matter, and 2-hander vs 1-handers is a completely different game again.

Regarding the enchants, I think the Accuracy is supposed to be a 'passive' version of the proc AP enchant. At least this time we are given a truly good passive enchant, which is the best we can hope for if they won't give us ranged procs.

You seem to be stuck on talking about wraith spear, when I haven't mentioned it at all.

Kisai · 12/08/08, 7:26 PM

ENGINEERING

BoP Headslot item, unlike in TBC these won't last you the first few Tierlevels, but at least they have Agility now: Truesight Ice Blinders

Some utility as wipe recovery with Shockers and FD.

Hyperspeed accelerators, gloves enchant-- use: +340 haste rating during 8 seconds, 2min cooldown

everyone seems to forget about this one.

Korvek · 12/09/08, 12:43 AM

Boss hit boxes are so buggy or retarded, its near impossible to place immolation traps in a stationary state on a lot of bosses. You can be in melee range of a boss and because of the mechanics of hit boxes, the trap will never even activate unless its close to the center of the actual hit box and not the endges.

However, I still think it is worth it to place immolation traps on bosses by positioning yourself during the GCD of an explosive shot or serpent sting and positioning yourself back out to minimum shoot range during the GCD of the immolation trap.

I also wonder if it would be more helpful to macro disengage and immolation trap together so you jump out instantly after placing the immolation trap.

When using immolation trap rotations on a test dummy in a stationary state, my personal damage (not pet) was spread out pretty evenly with 30% explosive shot, 30% steady shot, and 30% autoshot, with the other 10% being spread out in serpent sting and immolation trap.

Zerlu · 12/09/08, 2:00 AM

Originally Posted by Korvek

Boss hit boxes are so buggy or retarded, its near impossible to place immolation traps in a stationary state on a lot of bosses. You can be in melee range of a boss and because of the mechanics of hit boxes, the trap will never even activate unless its close to the center of the actual hit box and not the endges.

However, I still think it is worth it to place immolation traps on bosses by positioning yourself during the GCD of an explosive shot or serpent sting and positioning yourself back out to minimum shoot range during the GCD of the immolation trap.

I also wonder if it would be more helpful to macro disengage and immolation trap together so you jump out instantly after placing the immolation trap.

When using immolation trap rotations on a test dummy in a stationary state, my personal damage (not pet) was spread out pretty evenly with 30% explosive shot, 30% steady shot, and 30% autoshot, with the other 10% being spread out in serpent sting and immolation trap.

WWS Loading...

Thats the results of a 10 man Naxx run. I didn't have Resourcefulness or the Immo trap glyph.

Rotation:

Serp Sting, Immo. Trap, ES, SS, ES, SS, ES, SS

After the first round, I would try to place a Immo trap following the ES, SS, SS pattern (so it became ES, SS, SS, Immo, LnL)

I tried to stick to this as best I was able. When it came to Viper, I would fire off a Serpsting, and a ES while in Dhawk, and then slip into viper with those two DoTs up. Generally speaking I didn't spend much time in Viper.

Honestly, given my gear, and the fact that I had never seen the inside of Naxx before, I didnt do half bad. I found places to use LnL (any adds....at all), and it usually resulted in a DPS gain. While my ES don't hit particularly hard, I think that may be my gear speaking. Given some more RAP, I think the superior scaling of ES would increase the damage. Of course, one test isn't enough, so hopefully I can get into a 10/25 naxx this week for more testing.

My personal feelings: On the majority of bosses we did (Abom. and Plague Wing) it is not overly difficult to place an Immo/Explosive trap to get an LnL proc. The largest pain was Saph. and I'm fairly sure her hit box makes it next to impossible to dance back and forth placing traps. Other than that, I'll need to do further testing, and probably with the Glyph and Resourcefulness.

KraxisSingular · 12/09/08, 2:16 AM

Originally Posted by Namarus

You seem to be stuck on talking about wraith spear, when I haven't mentioned it at all.

You didn't need to when you said any... that little word means Wraith Spear by extension. If you had said most I would either not have commented or agreed.

Namarus · 12/09/08, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by Arcazua

I've always been both a math-head that min/max'es and a heedless player that throws all that knowledge to the wind and does other things. My current spec I'm playing with says quite a bit about that.

A few side comments about SV builds, though I have no LK raid experience yet (even Naxx 10) to draw from, just my theorycrafting:

Here are a few comments of my own after clearing all raid content.

* There are some utility aspects to survival, but do not think that we are a great utility tree anymore. With expose weakness gone, and replaced with replenishment our utility has gone down hill. In a standard 10 man raid you might be the only person providing replenishment, or then again you might be the 2nd or 3rd person. Where as in a 25 man raid it is very unlikely that you will be the only person providing replenishment. Therefore you should be justifying your raid spot by doing "good" dps.

* Much of the survival tree is about fluff, not much substance to it all, and even our 41 point talent is lackluster. Get used it.

* Playing survival is about being able to manage the procs you will be getting from various talents and being able to use them at the best times.

* People question hastes usefulness as a marksman and as survival. I personally believe that haste is a "ok" stat since so much of our gear has it. Right now looking at the spreadsheet in general the best way to gear is accept whatever is an upgrade whether it has haste or not. Just do not go out of your way to get haste. While people question latency affecting haste and the global cooldown, server commands are queued. So if your are spamming out shot rotations while affected by latency provided your not using a cast sequence macro your shots should still go off relatively well.

* If anything in terms of scaleability you just cannot beat what a survival hunter gets in terms of stats. On mail dps gear we benefit from it all (apart from the expertise pieces). This can only get better as more and more raid instances are released. I remember sitting at around 7k hit points buffed when entering Karazhan in BC, and leaving Sunwell with around 13k. So considering that the currently raid instances are entry level I would expect that gear will just get better and better for us.

* As stated before I disagree with calling MT, HP and ST dead weight. There is only one fight at the moment where you would not get any benefit from Master Tactician and that would be Loatheb

Breaking down all of the raid encounters so far.

Arachnid Quarter

* Anub'Rekhan Useable
* Grand Widow Faerlina Useable
* Maexxna Useable

Plague Quarter

* Noth the Plaguebringer Useable, putting traps down for the adds to walk over gets some nice LnL procs
* Heigan the Unclean Sniper training can lose out here
* Loatheb Master Tactician loses out here

Military Quarter

* Instructor Razuvious Useable
* Gothik the Harvester Useable, putting traps down for the adds to walk over gets some nice LnL procs, plus since you know the location of where Gothik teleports you could have immolation traps waiting for him.
* The Four Horsemen Useable

Construct Quarter

* Patchwerk Useable
* Grobbulus Useable
* Gluth Useable, putting traps down for the adds to walk over gets some nice LnL procs
* Thaddius Sniper Training loses out here.

Frostwyrm Lair

* Sapphiron Useable
* Kel'Thuzad Useable

Obsidian Sanctum In all cases you can put traps down for LnL procs on the adds.

* 0 drakes Useable
* 1 drake Useable,
* 2 drakes Useable
* 3 drakes Useable, getting space to use sniper training can be difficult

The Eye Of Eternity

* Malygos Useable, you do have to watch out on this fight if you are killing the sparks since TNT can stun the sparks causing them to die outside designated dps areas.

Dawnhoof · 12/10/08, 6:44 AM

Although also Marksmanship Hunters still need some amount of Haste-Rating to reach the GCD with Steadyshot, they tend to put at least 7 points into the Beastmaster-Tree. So this is mainly adressing Survival Hunters.

In these days many Level 80 Raid specs for a Survival Hunter seem to include improved Aspect of the Hawk. Sometimes just because of the usefullness of iAotH (5/15/41 Spec) or to reach Tier 2 where you can get Focused Fire (6/14/41 or 7/13/41). Focused Fire is a quite worthy investment for your talentpoints but when you're like me not willing to sacrifice Aimed Shot for Focused Fire, you're stuck with a maximum amount of 5 points into the Beastmaster Tree, unless you do really crazy shit.

So what i wanted to know was: How much points should i spend for iAotH, which directly depends on how much haste you have on your Equipment. Reaching the GCD for Steadyshot means getting 25 % haste. So it's:

Haste by Gear * Haste by Talents * Haste by quiver/pouch = 1,25

This way you can calculate how much points you need to put into iAotH to get Steadyshot casting time down to (or below) the GCD when it proccs.

Haste	points iaoth
> 522	0
412-522	1
308-411	2
209-307	3
115-208	4
27-114	5
<27	n/a

If you take the Glyph of iAotH:

Haste	points iaoth
> 522	0 (not worth to take the glyph)
412-521	1 (but drop the glyph)
209-411	1
115-208	2
27-114	3
0-26	4

If you're next to the upper barrier of a haste-interval you might want to put one point less into iAotH and miss the GCD just by some ms.

Littlestan-Kel · 12/10/08, 4:03 PM

Through BC I played two Hunters to 70, both with SV specs all the way. While it was not the most efficient way to level, I have always thought it better to level with your intended endgame spec so you know it in and out. In the 4 years I have played WoW, the SV Hunter was the only class/spec that truly got my attention and brought out the best in me.

Now, I am saddened to find they have removed much of the usefulness of my favorite spec. I am now coming back to the game, and wanted to play my Hunter, but I have been told by my friends the CC utility of the spec, the sole reason I played the Hunter, is fairly useless.

Why take a Hunter with traps when you can take a Mage with Poly? Dual trapping and using Wyvern Sting to lock down three mobs consistently is what made the class fun for me. I have never been much of a DPS whore (no offense to those who DPS, I just have never cared for it) and want something more from my time in dungeons.

Taking into count there can always be an exception to the rule, is it safe to assume that most times, the utility CC of the SV spec is useless? Has WotLK changed the utility of this spec so much that folks now turn to it for DPS, rather than CC?

I am looking for some honest feedback. EJ has got to be the best set of forums for intellectual posts (most of the time). Have my friends been accurate in their assessment, that a SV Hunter is no longer needed where it once was, or have things not changed much since BC?

Thanks!

KraxisSingular · 12/10/08, 6:41 PM

Cilithan · 12/11/08, 9:24 AM

Since the information on the proposed changes I've been working on rotations that tune down the percentage of Steady Shot in SV Hunters overall damage. As gear gets better it becomes more and more important to lower the amount of Steady's in favor of better scaling abilities/shots.

Aimed Shot will most likely be worth the increased manacost and the talentpoint for SV Hunters.

Using Immolation Trap in rotations - possibly valid at the moment allready - will become even more valid in a rotation to increase the amount of Explosive Shots through L&L and decreasing the amount of Steady's. Since Blizzard may buff the scaling part of Explosive shot again, this may become even more valid. Immolation itself is more damage per GCD compared to Steady as well, especially with the Glyph and the Trap Mastery talent. Practice will learn how much damage we'll lose because of moving.

Using both abilities might increase manausage to the extent that increased Vipertime has to be taken into account. Could this in time make Efficiency an important talent? I'm pondering on this spec:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

(When lacking Hasterating on Gear replace Efficiency with ImpAotHawk)

In an ideal rotation with the following priority: Serpent>Immolation>Explosive>Aimed>Steady (with enough haste) a distribution of 5 Serpents/3 Immolation/16 Explosive (with 4L&L)/6 Aimed and 20 Steady every 50 GCD's looks possible. Thats a substantial part of a max damage rotation from different sources than Steady.

Rutnut · 12/11/08, 5:15 PM

I'm toying with the survival option since we don't have a constant ret pally, and our spriest has been AWOL for a while.

But the thing I can't figure out, is why no builds take Imp. Stings? We're obviously trying to keep serpent sting up for the majority of all fights - does IAotH really outweigh 30% serpent sting damage?

I suppose I'll try and test this out tonight when I get home, but if anyone has any experience or thoughts on this it would be greatly appreciated.

Salanei · 12/11/08, 5:40 PM

Originally Posted by Rutnut

I'm toying with the survival option since we don't have a constant ret pally, and our spriest has been AWOL for a while.

But the thing I can't figure out, is why no builds take Imp. Stings? We're obviously trying to keep serpent sting up for the majority of all fights - does IAotH really outweigh 30% serpent sting damage?

I suppose I'll try and test this out tonight when I get home, but if anyone has any experience or thoughts on this it would be greatly appreciated.

The reason IAotH is taken over Imp. Stings is that till we have enough haste on gear to bring Steady down to 1.5s cast, it helps, a lot.

Tiberium · 12/12/08, 5:37 AM

I really find myself disappointed at the complete and total lack of response to the upcoming "Hunter" nerfs right here in the SV thread. Actually there is 1 post. We should all be screaming from the rooftops that the SS nerf is ludicrous when considering SV raiding.

Perhaps the lack of SV takeup is perfect confirmation that SV hunters are next to useless for raiding. No doubt due to the "Beta" nerfs to explosive shot. In fact if anyone could confirm the current take up of SV it would be greatly apreciated as a butress to the fact that the proposed Hunter "Steady Shot" nerf is just plain wrong. BM pets are doing 60% of BM hunter damage???? Surely the needed nerf is as plain as your nose, nerf BM Pet talents. Not the mainstay of the survival build.

So we are already the poor relation of the 3 specs and what does Blizz propose to do? Well, Nerf SV and Nerf us hard. Here is a copy of the proposed changes once plugged into the spreadsheet.

Read it and weep.

Originally Posted by Esoth

That's all just assuming current rotations, which I don't think will be the case. Since serpent sting, arcane shot, multi shot, and aimed shot are all better than steady, they will probably be a part of our rotations by default, so taking talents to maximize them makes more sense. Barring mana issues, I can see steady shot being something like a shadow priest's mind flay - simply the filler when everything else is on cooldown. Set to 4 minutes, using arcane shot and aimed shot was several dps greater than steady spamming.
MM build with 3/3 barrage and 3/3 imp arcane shot: ~4695
BM build with aimed shot talent (and arcane/aimed in rotation): ~4954
Survival: about the same because, unless I am mistaken, arcane is still tied with explosive

So for me, adjusting to better rotations and talent builds to minimize steady's role and maximize other specials, the nerf (and again, this is just including the three talents I mentioned at the start + readiness change) comes out more like this:
BM Nerf: ~8%
MM Nerf: ~6% (but BM was still overall ahead by about 250 dps)
SV Nerf: ~9%

It is quite alarming to me to think of our weakest spec getting hit the HARDEST by these changes, but that is how it appears to me currently. I don't understand why they wouldn't unlink explosive from arcane and up the damage of explosive.

The next issue is that of SV rotations. Since when is a hunter supposed to be position him//herself 8 yds from a boss? This is what we are being forced to get LnL to proc enough to get ES damage up. Absurd.

You all know Blizz scans these forums for feedback so for the love of cookies participate in the nerf discussions from the SV raiding standpoint.

Nerf BM Pet Talents, Buff Explosive Shot. Simple Eh?

Neruse · 12/12/08, 6:49 AM

In v80 of the spreadsheet, if one substitutes aimed for steadyshot, survival actually closes the gap somewhat between it and the highest spec (BM and marks are essentially tied). The difference pre-nerf between top BM and top SV specs was about 900 dps, or 14%. Now, the difference is roughly 600 dps, or 10%. I suspect if ExS is buffed to 12%, or arcane is unlinked from ExS and ExS buffed to 10%, survival would pull up right next to marks and BM.

JaclynRA · 12/12/08, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Tiberium

I really find myself disappointed at the complete and total lack of response to the upcoming "Hunter" nerfs right here in the SV thread. Actually there is 1 post. We should all be screaming from the rooftops that the SS nerf is ludicrous when considering SV raiding.

Perhaps the lack of SV takeup is perfect confirmation that SV hunters are next to useless for raiding. No doubt due to the "Beta" nerfs to explosive shot. In fact if anyone could confirm the current take up of SV it would be greatly apreciated as a butress to the fact that the proposed Hunter "Steady Shot" nerf is just plain wrong. BM pets are doing 60% of BM hunter damage???? Surely the needed nerf is as plain as your nose, nerf BM Pet talents. Not the mainstay of the survival build.

So we are already the poor relation of the 3 specs and what does Blizz propose to do? Well, Nerf SV and Nerf us hard. Here is a copy of the proposed changes once plugged into the spreadsheet.

Read it and weep.

The next issue is that of SV rotations. Since when is a hunter supposed to be position him//herself 8 yds from a boss? This is what we are being forced to get LnL to proc enough to get ES damage up. Absurd.

You all know Blizz scans these forums for feedback so for the love of cookies participate in the nerf discussions from the SV raiding standpoint.

Nerf BM Pet Talents, Buff Explosive Shot. Simple Eh?

Honestly being SV you should already know that you are not a damage dealer, you are a "utility" spec. Might not be as much of a utility that you would like but that's what the spec is. I went from BM (my fav) to SV back in SW for the guild. It's kinda fun so after leveling to 80 I went back. I manage to stay in the top 10 and some fights even make it to top 3. In no way should people panic so much on beta tested things. It's beta... not live. There are other things that they are thinking about and things always change. Just my 2c

On a side note. Has anyone seen a blue on the new wording of Imp Track? Is it simply a new wording or if you have one of the listed tracks going you get the damage mod for all? Looks to me it's just reworded and works like it always has. Just heard some rumors that it worked for all.

Kanandi · 12/12/08, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by JaclynRA

Honestly being SV you should already know that you are not a damage dealer, you are a "utility" spec.
On a side note. Has anyone seen a blue on the new wording of Imp Track? Is it simply a new wording or if you have one of the listed tracks going you get the damage mod for all? Looks to me it's just reworded and works like it always has. Just heard some rumors that it worked for all.

Agreed, SV is not meant for pure to-the-wall DPS damage. Hunters are still up there as a Class among the top DPS, which is what prompted the changes.

Regarding hte Tracking, I'll have to browse for the actual post, but essentially, if you are tracking one type of creature such as beasts, Humanoids, Dragons, Elementals, etc, (as opposed to tracking Herbs, Fish, or Ore) then the tracking bonus applies to other trackable types of mob. If you are tracking beasts, but stumble across an elemental, you can continue to be "Tracking something" and gain the benefit of the talent without continually switching tracking-types.
So I suppose you could say something like "Improved Tracking - adds damage against trackable enemies, if you are tracking anything but gathering nodes".

JaclynRA · 12/12/08, 11:51 AM

Well that's what I hope they are doing. I just noticed that how GC described it in the forum post is (of course) different than what the ptr patch notes state.

Improved Tracking(Survival): This talent has been slightly re-designed. Now reads: While tracking Beasts, Demons, Dragonkin, Elementals, Giants, Humanoids and Undead, all ranged damage done to those types is increased by 1/2/3/4/5%.

Nandei · 12/12/08, 12:17 PM

Hunters are pure dps class, no matter what the spec. With EW gone, I don't see SV being any more utility than the other two trees. We got replenishment but as that is the only thing and shared with 2 other classes, it does not in my opinion mean that SV should do less dps. I do not think that Blizzard will ever manage to balance the trees really, but using the excuse of "utility-spec" to explain one being a lot worse is not valid any more.

JaclynRA · 12/12/08, 12:21 PM

There is no such thing as a true balance. Trying to make every spec equal and do the same DPS is idiotic. Why make specs or classes at all if everyone is the same? You will always have a spec difference. You will always have one on top... one in the middle, and one last. It's how you use it to your advantage that makes it special. Simply put you want damage play BM.

Nandei · 12/12/08, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by JaclynRA

There is no such thing as a true balance. Trying to make every spec equal and do the same DPS is idiotic. Why make specs or classes at all if everyone is the same? You will always have a spec difference. You will always have one on top... one in the middle, and one last. It's how you use it to your advantage that makes it special. Simply put you want damage play BM.

You are missing my point. Like I said I do not believe they will ever get the balancing right. But to use "utility-spec" excuse to just wave one spec's problems away is just lame.

JaclynRA · 12/12/08, 12:25 PM

I don't believe my spec(tree) has a problem so calling for balance IMO is lame. Just my thoughts, like I stated but you are free to argue all you like.

bomzix · 12/12/08, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by JaclynRA

...Honestly being SV you should already know that you are not a damage dealer, you are a "utility" spec. Might not be as much of a utility that you would like but that's what the spec is. I went from BM (my fav) to SV back in SW for the guild. It's kinda fun so after leveling to 80 I went back. I manage to stay in the top 10 and some fights even make it to top 3. In no way should people panic so much on beta tested things. It's beta... not live. There are other things that they are thinking about and things always change. Just my 2c...

I agree that a utility specc for a pure DPS class should be behind in personal ( player + pet ) DPS of the 100% DPS specc. Problem is there are no 100% Pure DPS specs anymore. Everyone brings something to the table, even the previously selfish Combat/Assassination Rogues, the Frost Mages... everyone has something.

Survival has Replenishment. Period. It's the worst of the best raid buffs there is but it's the only one. SV DPS needs to be closer to the max-DPS builds and farther away from the hydrid DPS builds.

That beeing said... Why is everyone so shocked that a hunter's pet makes most of his DPS? I find it cool that a BM's pet is the better part of himself

Nandei · 12/12/08, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by JaclynRA

I don't believe my spec(tree) has a problem so calling for balance IMO is lame. Just my thoughts, like I stated but you are free to argue all you like.

Well I do not think we have a problem either. At the moment. Yet if the nerfs indeed hit us the hardest, then that might prove a totally different thing. I for one do not wish to end up last in dps, below all the hybrids too (worst case scenario, obviously). I am hoping for the best, expecting the worst.

At the moment I am doing ok in dps, I am not the highest, losing to a rogue, FFB mage and shaman (who is getting a nerf). So no need to go BM for me at the moment, enjoying Survival rotation and the randomness of the occasional Lock and Load procs a lot.

Edit: I am not asking for balancing, I know its not possible. The reason that SV is a bit behind is not it being an utility spec, but simply that Blizzard can't balance the trees. As simple as that.