Nevermind, I misunderstood the question entirely.

Based on Relwin's post, I'm going to go ahead and write the disclaimer that these are NOT Shot macros. These are simply macros to consolidate some of the other abilities effectively based on information throughout this thread and that of the 3.08 thread in this same forum. I tried out the new SV in Naxx 25 last night and while it is a lot of fun, I can't see how you could possibly (or want to possibly) map out a "Single Button" spam for it. The LnL procs definitely require a good deal of attentiveness, so here's two macros I used last night and will continue to test in the coming weeks unless the rest of you can offer any alternatives to better them.

#showtooltip Explosive Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/script UIErrorsFrame:UnregisterEvent("UI_ERROR_MESSAGE");
/cast Explosive Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 0
/script UIErrorsFrame:UnregisterEvent("UI_ERROR_MESSAGE");
/cast [modifier:shift] Serpent Sting
/cast Kill Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/console Sound_EnableSFX 1


Essentially, my rotation was as follows, with the Shift Modifier for Serpent Sting to place any needed applications. It seemed to work fairly well:

ES > Serpent > SS > SS > ES > SS > SS > SS, ES, etc.

LnL Procs = ES > SS > ES> SS> ES

Wouldn't that overlap some of the DoT damage from previous ES's? You need to let the ES DoT fully tick before you shoot off your next one (or shoot it off right as the ticks are ending)...right?

I was using Multi-Shot last night instead of aimed shot, shorter cooldown and more damage. Am I right on this? Mana was not an issue on any fight last night through a whole Naxx clear

KS > ES > MS > SS > ES > SS > SS

You're right about the CD only if you have glyph of multi-shot (without the glyph they are the exact same CD). And they should be the same damage, except Sniper Training effects Aimed, so in reality Aimed could do more damage.

Unless you spam-fire ES, you do not clip anything off of them; it is a 2sec DoT, and has a 1.5sec CD. If you spam-shot it without waiting, you WILL clip the last hit. If you wait .5s or fire another shot however, ES ticks to its full duration.

I wasn't sure about the relative merit of Aimed, until I specced it and watched the comparative damage.

Aimed: ~1300 a hit.

Steady: ~950 a hit (post 3.0.8)

Replacing a Steady with an Aimed once every 10 seconds is a good boost for dps, in the end.

Wrong information posted here. Please delete this.

Where are you seeing what rotation they were using? also, how were they getting lnl to proc if they weren't trapping?

I think this is something fair to bring up. There is really something to be said the shorter CD on multi, since it gives slightly more usage, and not to be dismissed; all of your cooldowns are on similar timers now; having a matching a lowest common denominator, which can help with gcd collisions on instants (in this case, 6s ES, 9s multi, 21s sting, 30s trap: all have 3s lcd). Have to work on figuring out how/if that really matters.

The downsides however, are as follows:
1. Mana - costs notably more. If you have to use viper at all, you really are losing dps this way
2. Mobility - Can't move and Shoot
3. Sniper Training - if you have this talent, you are losing DPS not having aimed; if you don't have this talent, you are probably trap dancing, in which case see #2
4. Glyph - you're glyphing multi, so you are going to lose Aspect of the Hawk glyph; effectively 2 free talent points - you don't have to spec aimed shot, so I suppose that only means means losing 1 talent point.

With a 40 second slower kill time, same spec as him, and missing a couple best in slots and inscription instead of jc'ing I did 6400 going with:

Explosive -> Serpent -> Multi -> Steady -> Explosive -> Steady Steady Steady -> Explosive


Keeping Serpent up, staying at 30 yards+ and using multi on cd. I unfortunately do not have a wws but with his kill times and gear I think he could do better.


My steady is at 1.6 seconds which slightly screws an explosive every 6 seconds. However, from what the spreadsheet modeled I am still better off using the three gcd's after the explosive as opposed to two.

My rotation was sketchy at times and if I maintained a good rotation I am confident I could have done 6600+ for a 3 minute kill. I weaved my lnl procs with a gcd between. His gear and the sub 2:20 kill times we will see 7k parses this week or next.

In terms of speccing. Raid buffed the spreadsheet shows a decent increase going 6/14/51 over getting imp stings. Simple logical also proves it better. 1 point in focus fire is worth about 50 dps (5k personal dps / 100) and from what I remember 5/5 imp AoTH was about 60-80. Imp stings would increase my ~22,000 sting damage to 28,600 or a gain of 6,600 / 180 seconds ~35 dps.

Aimed is an increase over multi. However, it is not an increase over Focused Fire and Imp AoTH. Feel free to model in the spreadsheet and test both.

Right, my point is that we have pages of text in this thread that discusses trap dancing and the use of aimed shot. Everything moreless speculation based off some PTR dummy tests and a spreadsheet.

What I am starting to see in these WWS logs is confirmation that some of the things we thought _could_ be better simply
are not.




I have modeled that rotation in the past and on my spreadsheet making those changes I am unable to get it to show that 4/16/51 w/ Multi-shot is infact better DPS then 2/18/51 w/ Aimed. Make no mistake, I'm not arguing in anyway that 2/18/51 is better then 4/16/51 I am simply pointing out that I do not think I am alone when I say the spreadsheet doesn't accurately model the results we are seeing from the 4/16/51 spec.

Assuming none or all are using haste or speed pots then can we assume that 6/14/51 and 2/18/51 are very close in dps, for Patchwerk, a stand and pew pew watch cds nothing else going on. Using the spreadsheet and a cat I came up with a difference of 5 dps between the two. Therefore since we face bosses other than Patch I believe 2/18/51 is the superior spec because it offers more flexibility on bosses that require movement. Your serpent sting is ticking for more while on the move and you can use aimed on the run instead of multi which hits a little bit harder.

Some Questions:

1) Are they all wearing identical gear/enchats/gems?
2) Are they all equally skilled at sniping/trapdancing?
3) Are they all identical races for stat-comparison?

If for any of those, or all of those, the answer is "No" then you aren't looking at samples that are close enough to truly compare. The only way to tell for your own spec/gear/etc is experimenting and using the spreadsheet.

That's great if you want to spec explicitly for Patchwerk. Having another instant to pair off with Explosive Shot on fights with any mobility whatsoever means that you can run for 4.5s in a row best case scenario (Explosive, Aimed, reapply Serpent).

You're also more likely to have an instant available for small movements on fights like Sarth where you just quickly dodge a wave and get back to your rotation. There's a really good chance that either Aimed or Explosive will be lit up when you need to duck out.

And of course, with Sniper Training, Aimed hits harder as well.

I'm just really not a fan of bubble specs that are intended to make us function at full capacity on a fight where there isn't a single variable other than the length of it. I'd rather spec with the harder stuff in mind that is more challenging.

Hawk Eye for example helps with Sarth +3 for example by letting you put DPS on any target from anywhere on the platform. You're less at risk and likely have higher DPS uptime. Hawk Eye helps a ton with Malygos P2... might be an extremely easy phase, but the more DPS you can output, the faster you can get people on to discs, the faster scions die, the faster you move onto P3.

Aimed Shot's debuff helps in a few situations as well. We are literally the only raiding class that keeps up a healing debuff now too.

Looked around, and I wanted to see what shots use ammo dmg. Example of shots, Explosive, auto, steady, and arcane.

I ask because I worked out some dps on the dummies and actually got better dps results from my Stars Fury bow over my KT 10 man gun. This happened more then a few times, and wanted to see why. I dont plan on using the bow for 25mans, but if the dps is gonna be higher, then I might look into it. Ill give some numbers(not actual)

Try 1- KJ Bow- 4300dps
KT 10 man Gun- 3800

This was pretty consistent to, about 350-500 dps better with the bow. Ill try to post a meter if I can, to see what explosive shot hits for with both weapons and see the difference there. Thanks


Reason I posted here is to find out mainly if Explosive shot uses ammo dmg etc, others are just to confirm my findings.

I dont have excel, so you can shun me for not following your spreadsheet data numbers.

But from my testing, which consisted of the level 80 dummy as a control (another thing that I've seen so many people fight adamantly over), through two mana bars. I would get 2900 dps incorporating sniper training's benefit, while under the same spec trap dancing every 30 sec saw a loss of 200 down to 2700 dps. Obviously you can say "your sample wasnt large enough to make such a statement", but from a generalized point of view for ones current state of being I do believe that Sniper Training with aimed shot is a higher dps increase than trap dancing.

Interesting dps numbers to me, in that these numbers were directly switched prior to patch but with a 24 sec trap cool down. Oh and I was using Immo trap, since the other trap is a bug and will get fixed.

On a separate note, Ive been thinking of switching the steady shot glyph over to the aimed shot glyph which is a 80 mana reduction or the hunters mark which is an extra 60 ap to everything, now that steady has gone down around 300ish damage a shot and it being on a much lower priority.

Yes, one problem with living by the spreadsheet is you die by the spreadsheet. The numbers it gives should only be pointers and should be tempered with realism. Very few fights let you stand still for the entire duration, meaning that instant shots can offer even more dps than strictly what damage ranges and crit rates predict -- something the spreadsheet can't model. Likewise, the spreadsheet is under heavy development, sometimes fixing bugs, sometimes refining mechanics (such as crit depression). Ultimately it can't tell you what is best in every situation, but can only offer guidelines for each hunter to weigh against their raiding situation.

I dunno about your arguements having aimed for mobility.. Not sure of any fight that doesn't allow me to stop for that split second to pump off a multi-shot (even the Heigan dance).

I agree on a fight like Heigan or Malygos (cause of the Vortex) the sting damage is great to have.

But, Noth, Faerlina, Anub, Sarth 3, Maexna, Gothik, Gluth are also potential fights where you will not be using Aimed shot but will be using Multi-shot. You can even cheat on Instructor and use Multi-shot if you want to pad your damage. There are more fights that will benefit from the use of Multi-shot to improve your damage then there are that require so much movement that your aimed shot and extra serpent damage is going to make a strong impact.

You can go back and forth all day about when to use specific abilities. We don't use Heigan or Malygos as a way to measure our DPS. We use Teron, Brutallus and Patchwerk.

Patchwerk is really a terrible DPS test, though. It isn't representative of most fights (not that any single fight is), and your own personal DPS is far too influenced by others' DPS to really measure accurately. 2-3 minute fights far, far overemphasize cooldowns and heroism and the fight is so simple it requires very little player skill. You can literally press the same buttons with the same spec, same gear, and same buffs week to week and have your DPS increase because other members of your raid are increasing their dps. So you can't even use it to measure your own progress week to week, much less against other hunters or different specs.

Real DPS measurements need to be in a full raid on a practice dummy in a fight of fixed duration (3 min, 5 min, etc), not fixed HP. Sadly no one really does this, so we have very poor proxy fights like Patchwerk.

If there were a talent that increased your AP by 25,000 but reduced your maximum HP to 1, the spreadsheet would tell you to take it. Likewise, if there were a shot that took 7 minutes to cast but did 25,000,000 damage, then the spreadsheet would tell you to use it. Flat numbers in a spreadsheet aren't the only metric of a spec.

To be specific on aimed; being able to shoot in motion (while jumping or strafing) is pretty handy, more so than multishot's 0.5s cast, and the spreadsheet shows as higher dps than a point in IAotH for me and possibly other players. Multi isn't terrible but it definitely is inferior. At one talent point, aimed has some nice synergy with deep bm and a nice debuff.

Sorry if this has been answered before, but I'm looking for good suggestions for a LnL mod. Anyone recommend something with a fairly big warning on screen and possibly sound as well. Also what is your favorite cooldown timer?

Thanks in advance for your answers.