Note: Sniper training based on getting totems/horn/other buffs/personal choice may not be the best choice. This is a personal preference but in most cases it is worth the talent points.
Getting Focused Aim if you are not hit-capped is worth it. Drop points in Imp Aspect of the Hawk
Which is better?
There is no straight answer. The spreadsheet models 5/14/51 to be slightly higher (depending on gear between 5-50 dps)
However, I am beginning to lean more towards 2/18/51.
My reasoning: Aim shot can be used on the move, serpent sting does damage on the move, and 6% haste + aoth glyph takes me below 1.5 steady shots. The damage on the move helps trap dancing and movement fights (3d sarth)
Rotation
Depends on spec above, if you have aimed shot use it, if not use multishot.
The simplest way to think of this is a priority order.
Explosive
Serpent
Aimed/Multi
Steady Shot
People like rotations so:
Explosive -> Serpent -> Aimed/Multi-> Steady ->
Explosive -> Steady -> Steady -> Steady ->
Continue using Explosives on CD -> Reapply Serpent after 24 seconds -> Use Aimed/Multi on cd after explosive is up
Use three global cooldowns after your explosive shot
Trap dancing is forcing a lock and load proc by placing a trap in a place it will be triggered.
Should you use it? Yes if you are able to maintain a good rotation without it. Focus on your rotation as this is where most of your dps will come from. Trap dancing is just a small bonus.
Gearing
Basically, hit cap -> agility -> gem agility and keep your meta active
Pets
Spreadsheet shows the Raptor being the best (Drak'theron Keep heroic to tame an 80 one)
Difference between the Raptor and the Cat really isn't that big. Some say cat is better.
When to use cd's
Rapid Fire/Troll Berserking: Don't stack this with bloodlust, use it to keep your steady shot below 1.5 seconds during the fight. If you have a trinket proc but lust isn't up is a good time.
Kill Command: Macro it to something and just use whenever it is up.
Will edit this with some macro's
Addons:
Range Display: Shows range from boss for sniper training
Lock and Load proc addon: I use MSBT combat text. Will edit with how to add lnl.
How do I know what I am talking about. I do pretty good dps and am pretty avid about pushing whatever class I play to it's fullest potential. So essentially, I know half as much as a lot of hunter's here but I am just trying to help.
Would it be possible to post optional talent spec's that include hunting party? In 10m im the "replenishment" guy. I'm sure there are others out there who are the same.
I took the points from Sniper Training since i just can't seem to stay 30+ yards away and whenever i did i would lose totems :| (I guess its my play style, i just hang in that 25~ yard range without knowing it). But im sure there are other places people could sacrifice talents. Adding those option(s) i think would be helpful and maybe slow future questions about it.
Edit: Also about 2/2 GFTT, even with 53% "Ranged Critical Hit Chance vs. Level 83" it's showing as a DPS upgrade over 2/5 IAOTH although a very small one. (8 DPS)
I'm in the same boat as you as I'm usually the most consistent player when it comes to attendance that can bring Replenishment to the raid. This is my spec: 1/18/52
You lose 1 point in Imp Hawk, and I didn't put 2 points into GftT, (though I have almost 39% crit unbuffed) but you still get 3/3 Sniper Training, 2/3 Expose, 2/5 Hunting Party which I find to be more than enough to keep replenishment up on the boss.
Same thing here as Ryas and flimflam; I'm usually the replenishment bringer, and I absolutely love to trapdance. My spec is available through my armory link to the left; it's almost where I want it, as well. The last 2 FA points will move into IAotH, so if you're hitcapped, consider that.
I am currently specced without aimed shot - which I may well change in the near future - and was wondering if there was any merit in using a ES>ArcS>ES rotation during L&L?
At the moment, I can't see there being a use for Arcane Shot at all in any rotations - unless there's fire immune mobs - but it would seem that L&L is designed to make you use and Arcane Shot during proc. Without aimed shot it seems like a great option to use during L&L, but I guess numbers are still coming out with ES>ES>ES?
Thanks to the posters who suggested using PowerAuras! I love it. So useful for so many things.
that's a Serpent Sting every 12 seconds. Maybe give an 18 second/12 GCD rotation. (I understand that your real point is that a priority system should be used, and that you're only expressing it as a rotation to help those who prefer to think that way. But I can imagine people setting up castsequence macros to do this and over-serpenting (so to speak).)
In recommending specs, I think we should keep in mind that the hunter might be the primary or sole Replenishment provider, so points need to be found for Hunting Party, presumably from Sniper Training and/or Trap Mastery.
I also suggest including some comments on Sniper Training, pointing out that the range constraint may be a serious drawback and that the player needs to make a decision about that.
Priority should place serpent above aimed currently (or multi if you aren't specced for aimed). Serpent is a higher overall dps value, not to mention the steady glyph and noxious stings benefits.
You should never use an arcane shot in LnL procs, because it is going to eat up a charge that you could have used for an ES. Ideally during LnL, in between ES shots you would want to use Aimed > .5s of nothing > steady in that order of priority. That is assuming sting isn't dropping off, otherwise you could refresh that. We discussed that for a couple of pages on here.
I think that's a good summary for people who are starting out with a Survival spec, and I will be pointing confused people to your post.
Three suggestions:
In the rotation:
that's a Serpent Sting every 12 seconds. Maybe give an 18 second/12 GCD rotation. (I understand that your real point is that a priority system should be used, and that you're only expressing it as a rotation to help those who prefer to think that way. But I can imagine people setting up castsequence macros to do this and over-serpenting (so to speak).)
In recommending specs, I think we should keep in mind that the hunter might be the primary or sole Replenishment provider, so points need to be found for Hunting Party, presumably from Sniper Training and/or Trap Mastery.
I also suggest including some comments on Sniper Training, pointing out that the range constraint may be a serious drawback and that the player needs to make a decision about that.
I wrote all that up in about 20 minutes between classes. I will take some more time and edit it to make it clearer. For the serpent sting I intended to say with the rotation that you reapply after 24 seconds to use a gcd after explosive. I will add replenishment specs and make a note about sniper training. Thank you for the feedback.
Mh, I tried 2/18/51 today and was amazed. Regretfully it was really lagy until we reached Grobbolus.
Nevertheless I was a little gimpy on Patchwerk, where I tried to trapdance, but didn't succeed in dropping the expl. trap in the hitbox of Patchwerk, therefore I only got ~4,9k DPS.
Another issue besides lags and gimpy trapdancing was also that I was not sure which rotation I should choose on LnL.
In the end I got the impression that weaving Es,Aimed,ES,ES seems to be the best choice.
I tried my hunter for a couple hours on dummies last night. I see the problem with SV is the hunter need to fire a 6 sec cd Explosive as soon as it's up, and squeeze as much as 1.5 sec Steady in between. during LoL, the hunter need to fill in the "free" Explosives as soon as first dot goes off but no later than that.
Things only get worse when you put aimed in (depends on mana consumption it may or may not be a dps gain). Serpent is ok but you still want to reapply as soon as the last tick goes off, and watch the GCD so you don't miss a tick shooting a steady out without sting on target...
This had made hunter DPS rotation more quirky than before autoshot unlink. It's like asking an arms warrior repeatedly casting pre-instant 1.5 sec pummel and use MS to dps (and keep a dot up which "buffs" your pummel dmg by 10%).
Compare this with some other classes, like my much less geared 0/41/30 warlock, with coa, immo and incinerate it's much eaiser to watch cd and keep dots up, cast coa right after last tick, start immo right before last tick, chain incinerate and empowered up. and my lock actually kept up with my hunter's dps on heroic dummies nicely...
As for hunters, whether you use macro or not, 1 macro or 2 macros, you still need to smash the keys to start explosive, aimed/multi, steady at the earliest point. I just don't see how you could min/max without smashing (several) keys with 400+ latency and lag spikes. If you pressed steady 0.1 sec late you may either delay next explosive by 1.4+ sec, or lose the current steady if you choose explosive as priority.
This is like, hunter is not a caster class, but not a melee class neither. We ended up with no long casting opners or dmg "spells" now, and we have few instants on the move. Hunters have to choose (in a blink) between half a dozen abilities on EVERY GCD and miss it by even a 0.1 sec could make a big difference. Autoshot unlink is a good move by Blizzard, but there is still much to be desired.
This is like, hunter is not a caster class, but not a melee class neither. We ended up with no long casting opners or dmg "spells" now, and we have few instants on the move. Hunters have to choose (in a blink) between half a dozen abilities on EVERY GCD and miss it by even a 0.1 sec could make a big difference. Autoshot unlink is a good move by Blizzard, but there is still much to be desired.
It's hard, yes, but it's an enjoyable challenge. I'd prefer to be doing this than playing a one-button spamming spec or class. Saying that, aren't we being completely re-designed in the next patch? I was 50/21/0 until this patch (leveled and raided SV since vanilla, though), and THAT wasn't right either. I think too hard is better for the class overall than too easy.
I have alts to play, both classes with IWIN buttons. It's fun, but not nearly as satisfying to succeed at as this.
It's hard, yes, but it's an enjoyable challenge. I'd prefer to be doing this than playing a one-button spamming spec or class. Saying that, aren't we being completely re-designed in the next patch?
I agree to certain degree. Every class could have some of the core abilities on 1 macro and smash it for the better half of a fight, but they still need to react using other abilities, like a bear tank could have mangle, lacerate in one macro, it's simly not necessary to press those two keys separately as one will almost certainly miss out a lacerate with 400+ latency. But the bear still need to growl, and keep FF and demo up, and choose/switch to swipe/maul depend on fight and rage. That's probably my ideal balance between macro and reaction. (my lock doesn't even need a macro..)
SV is like, challenging, maybe, but a bit too busy. One need to watch boss debuff, watch self buff, watch GCD, watch "short" CDs, and make decision on every GCD. Why people are asking mod to monitor LoL or Explosive cd? The default UI just doesn't cut it.
I don't know, I just thought about remove steady shot altogether, replace it with some other cd based shots (I remember back in the days u time your aimed multi and then later add arcane in naxx 40), and maybe buff autoshot to compensate. Why pummel changed to instant? keep 1.5 sec cast up is just annoying AND button smashing anyway.
Hopefully next batch brings some thing new to the table.
Just to explain my post about LNL weaving better, the reason you don't want to weave external shots between ES during LNL is because you will push the ES cooldown longer. By timing properly so the first tick of an ES goes off at the same time as the final tick of a previous ES means you shot ES as soon as you could without clipping and losing damage. The less time until you trigger the actual ES cooldown, the more ESes you will fit into a fight. Weaving Aimed or Steady pushes that ES cooldown ahead, losing extra shots for the rest of the fight, and losing DPS.
Hopefully Shandara's spreadsheet will support some LNL options in the future that will manifest in the shot rotation test, where people can see easier how they should be using ES during LNL.
Note: Sniper training based on getting totems/horn/other buffs/personal choice may not be the best choice. This is a personal preference but in most cases it is worth the talent points.
Getting Focused Aim if you are not hit-capped is worth it. Drop points in Imp Aspect of the Hawk
Which is better?
There is no straight answer. The spreadsheet models 5/14/51 to be slightly higher (depending on gear between 5-50 dps)
However, I am beginning to lean more towards 2/18/51.
My reasoning: Aim shot can be used on the move, serpent sting does damage on the move, and 6% haste + aoth glyph takes me below 1.5 steady shots. The damage on the move helps trap dancing and movement fights (3d sarth)
Rotation
Depends on spec above, if you have aimed shot use it, if not use multishot.
The simplest way to think of this is a priority order.
Explosive
Serpent
Aimed/Multi
Steady Shot
People like rotations so:
Explosive -> Serpent -> Aimed/Multi-> Steady ->
Explosive -> Steady -> Steady -> Steady ->
Continue using Explosives on CD -> Reapply Serpent after 24 seconds -> Use Aimed/Multi on cd after explosive is up
Use three global cooldowns after your explosive shot
Trap dancing is forcing a lock and load proc by placing a trap in a place it will be triggered.
Should you use it? Yes if you are able to maintain a good rotation without it. Focus on your rotation as this is where most of your dps will come from. Trap dancing is just a small bonus.
Gearing
Basically, hit cap -> agility -> gem agility and keep your meta active
Pets
Spreadsheet shows the Raptor being the best (Drak'theron Keep heroic to tame an 80 one)
Difference between the Raptor and the Cat really isn't that big. Some say cat is better.
When to use cd's
Rapid Fire/Troll Berserking: Don't stack this with bloodlust, use it to keep your steady shot below 1.5 seconds during the fight. If you have a trinket proc but lust isn't up is a good time.
Kill Command: Macro it to something and just use whenever it is up.
Will edit this with some macro's
Addons:
Range Display: Shows range from boss for sniper training
Lock and Load proc addon: I use MSBT combat text. Will edit with how to add lnl.
How do I know what I am talking about. I do pretty good dps and am pretty avid about pushing whatever class I play to it's fullest potential. So essentially, I know half as much as a lot of hunter's here but I am just trying to help.
Will edit more once I have time
I am not sure if people are just ignoring it or if people find traditional trap dancing better, but currently if you wait for a LnL proc from serpent sting and then jump in and drop a frost trap you get back to back LnL (it bypasses the 30sec cd).
I want to see if anyone else think it is worth it to wait for the serpent sting proc to start trap dancing and using frost instead of immo. I find it better because you can use your free ES shots to get in and out of trap range without suffering any huge penalty, plus there are fights where frost trap is useful anyways (sarth, gluth, noth) and you can stay in Sniper range .
The less time until you trigger the actual ES cooldown, the more ESes you will fit into a fight. Weaving Aimed or Steady pushes that ES cooldown ahead, losing extra shots for the rest of the fight, and losing DPS.
Where do we draw the line?
A SV hunter need to make decision on every GCD like this:
if kill shot not on cd -> kill shot
if kill shot cd within 1.49 (?) sec -> wait and killshot
if explosive shot not on cd -> explosive shot
if explosive shot cd within 1.49 (?) sec -> wait and explosive shot
if aimed shot not on cd -> aimed shot
if aimed shot cd within 1.49 (?) sec -> wait and aimed shot
if serpent sting drop off AND neither kill shot or explosive shot cd will be up in next 1.49(?) sec - serpent sting
again IF neither kill shot or explosive shot cd will be up in next 1.49(?) sec - steady shot
That's a decision among 8 options on EACH GCD, not even considering LoL. It certainly does affect the dps based on your decision.
Now the "within 1.49 sec" is arguable, where do you draw the line? At which point do we gain dps by waiting instead of cast the next ability down the track? I would imagine the line is different for kill/explosive/aimed. Do we gain more dps by waiting 1.0 sec to cast kill shot or proceed with explosive? Do we gain more dps by waiting 0.3 sec to cast explosive or proceed with aimed? Do we gain more dps by waiting 0.2 sec to cast aimed or proceed with steady? And what about LoL, do we gain more dps by wait 0.5 sec for 2nd tick or do we immediately start 2nd ES at 1.5 mark?
Shandara's spreadsheet represent the ideal shot rotation without worrying about LoL, the actual rotation could be a big pile of mess and questions.
Well with crappy gear The World of Warcraft Armory and a core hound as a pet, I'm only doing 1600 dps on the level 80 dummy. I could probably squeeze another 100+(?) dps out with a raptor, but that isn't much. This test was over three minutes using Serpent Sting > Arcane Shot > Steady Shot. This is about 100 dps better than without Arcane Shot. I'm not even close to being hit capped, so that is a significant drop in dps. My rotation is fairly tight. I might have missed a Serpent Sting by the cast time of Steady Shot twice, and this was not using rapid fire, or any pots/trinkets (aside from argent fury). I would have been around 1900 dps if I didn't have to switch to AotV for 30% of the time.
Anyway, my question is this: Given the current data (not mine in particular), is SV more viable as a raiding spec than BM in the current (3.0.8) patch?
Last edited by Reps : 01/22/09 at 10:38 PM.
Reason: Grammatical Error
Just to explain my post about LNL weaving better, the reason you don't want to weave external shots between ES during LNL is because you will push the ES cooldown longer. By timing properly so the first tick of an ES goes off at the same time as the final tick of a previous ES means you shot ES as soon as you could without clipping and losing damage. The less time until you trigger the actual ES cooldown, the more ESes you will fit into a fight. Weaving Aimed or Steady pushes that ES cooldown ahead, losing extra shots for the rest of the fight, and losing DPS.
Hopefully Shandara's spreadsheet will support some LNL options in the future that will manifest in the shot rotation test, where people can see easier how they should be using ES during LNL.
I believe I posted earlier in this thread pretty much the same thing. If you can time the first tick of ES at the same time as the last tick of the previous ES, that will be the best use of the LnL proc. However, I also mentioned that the dps gained is very minimal over weaving shots between ES if look at the full rotation (a full rotation would be at least 30 sec long). Also, the timing required to do this is practically impossible and dps gain is so small that it's not really worth the effort. It won't even be noticeable and if you accidentally clip a ES tick, it's a significant dps loss in this context. So use LnL proc by weaving a shot between each ES, or if you want some extra challenge, try to wait 2 sec after firing ES to time the second and the third one perfectly.
I have read through this thread and for the most part, people consistently say that the rotation should be something like this, while not under LnL proc:
SrS>ES>AS>SS>SS>ES>SS>SS>SS>ES...
It appears that this is based on having steady shot capped at 1.5 seconds and zero latency, but very few SV hunters are capped at 523 or even 424 if you have a ret pally in raid. I find myself at 333 (please ignore my gems/enchants as I have not switched out the BM gems/enchants). I saw the post earlier in the thread regarding IAotH (+/- glyph) and how so many points in this should counter this deficit. In practice, however, I find myself delaying ES (up to 0.6 secs) if I try to squeeze three specials.
As I believe someone previously mentioned, if you have less than 1.5 seconds until ES is up should I just wait for it. If that is the case than I will generally only squeeze two specials between each ES. For the record, I am using Aspect of the Hawk, Steady Shot & Serpent Sting glyphs.
I'm in the same boat as you as I'm usually the most consistent player when it comes to attendance that can bring Replenishment to the raid. This is my spec: 1/18/52
You lose 1 point in Imp Hawk, and I didn't put 2 points into GftT, (though I have almost 39% crit unbuffed) but you still get 3/3 Sniper Training, 2/3 Expose, 2/5 Hunting Party which I find to be more than enough to keep replenishment up on the boss.
Yesterday 10:14 PM
I believe that more point in improved hawk more valuable than stings. Also 1 point in Hunting party more than enough, with 1 point it works constantly.
Say you use 6.5 seconds between explosives but you get an extra steady shot after each one.
Rotation 1: Every 12 explosive shot rotations you gain a full extra explosive shot by not using the third gcd. So in 72 seconds you get 13 explosives
Rotation 2 If you use the extra steady in between. In 78 seconds you get 13 explosives and 12 extra steady shots.
Lets say you do 12k average on your explosive and 2k average on your steady shot.
Rotation 1: (12,000 explosive x 13) / 72 seconds = ~2150 dps
Rotation 2: ((12,000 explosive x 13) + (2000 steady shots x 12)) / 78 seconds = ~2300 dps
I think using 6.5 seconds is probably a bit much. With several of your casts using just the gcd, the haste from rapid fire, aoth, lust, haste pots, etc. 6.2 is probably more accurate which makes the point more valid.
Unless I am missing something the spreadsheet is correct modeling using three gcd's between each explosive to be the best for dps.
I have read through this thread and for the most part, people consistently say that the rotation should be something like this, while not under LnL proc:
SrS>ES>AS>SS>SS>ES>SS>SS>SS>ES...
It appears that this is based on having steady shot capped at 1.5 seconds and zero latency, but very few SV hunters are capped at 523 or even 424 if you have a ret pally in raid. I find myself at 333 (please ignore my gems/enchants as I have not switched out the BM gems/enchants). I saw the post earlier in the thread regarding IAotH (+/- glyph) and how so many points in this should counter this deficit. In practice, however, I find myself delaying ES (up to 0.6 secs) if I try to squeeze three specials.
As I believe someone previously mentioned, if you have less than 1.5 seconds until ES is up should I just wait for it. If that is the case than I will generally only squeeze two specials between each ES. For the record, I am using Aspect of the Hawk, Steady Shot & Serpent Sting glyphs.
Survival is best served by a hand weaved First Come First Serve rotation, with this priority:
It's hard, yes, but it's an enjoyable challenge. I'd prefer to be doing this than playing a one-button spamming spec or class. Saying that, aren't we being completely re-designed in the next patch? I was 50/21/0 until this patch (leveled and raided SV since vanilla, though), and THAT wasn't right either. I think too hard is better for the class overall than too easy.
I have alts to play, both classes with IWIN buttons. It's fun, but not nearly as satisfying to succeed at as this.
I think it's a bit backward to have to fill in gaps by spamming your least powerful ability. Which other class does this to that extent? As was mentioned, it invokes the GCD quite often delays the source of your primary DPS (Explosive). It basically forces you to use a /stopcasting macro for every other more powerful instant shot.
Anyway, my question is this: Given the current data (not mine in particular), is SV more viable as a raiding spec than BM in the current (3.0.8) patch?
I figured out the spreadsheet to answer this question, as I had just dinged 80 as patch day arrived. It showed that my current BM spec was actually ahead of Survival by a few hundred dps in the gear I was currently wearing - which was pretty bad, I still had Hemet's quest reward gun and a few other non-80 blues. I wasn't surprised that depending on my personal DPS would be a bad idea with a horrible 93dps gun, so I stayed BM.
After a few heroics (and a gun upgrade, [Projectile Activator], the spreadsheet shows that all three specs have edged much closer. Marksman is the lowest at 3716 dps fully buffed, BM is at 3808, and Survival is at 3860. So basically, if you're in all blues don't worry about your spec, but once you start picking up epics, Survival pulls ahead. Once I grab a purple gun I will definitely ditch BM.
I stripped all buffs, and in that situation SV falls behind to 1650dps, BM is at 1700, and Marksman is in a much better situation at 1980 dps. So your target dummy results are correct.
01/22/09, 5:04 PM
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