Hello everyone. First time poster, long time lurker.
Have a quick question. I've recently switched over to survival from BM, and in doing so I've picked up the serpent sting glyph. It's great, and handy and all that, but the timing for it is much longer then I'm used to and I'm having a bit of trouble adjusting. I'm currently using a couple of addons to help track cooldowns, but I'm I'm having difficulty finding one that will track debuffs on enemy targets. I'm looking for something similar to Scorchio 2 for mages. Any advice on what works for you would be great and appreciated. Thanks for you time.
So since the latest patch survival is obviously yhe superior spec to both bm and MM, atleast in my experience. To be honest I'm not quite sure what the exact optimal spec is although i'm sure it's not including impAOTH. basically what i'm getting at is you have so many flex points like 5/5 in mortal shots or 3/5 in mortal shots depending on where your other points are spent. So what is the exact optimal spec/ shot rotation assuming you have hit cap and exclduing lock and load procs without trap dancing in the mix. because in my experience i have found that the 6% damage increase from sniper training was really helpful to the build.
Actually kolboi, many people have shown on the spreadsheet that the best build indeed does include aspect of the hawk, the highest being a 6/14/51 build, I would take a look at the other thread discussing this. If you like using sniper training, then you probably shouldn't be trap dancing much. For shot rotation, always shoot explosive when available, keep serpent sting is a second priority, and shoot steadies/multis between explosives. When LnL procs, you can either wait a tick between each explosive shot or shoot a steady or multi between them. There doesn't seem to be enough evidence that doing it one way or another is a significant difference in dps, just don't shoot them back to back such that you miss out on the DOT effect.
Hello everyone. First time poster, long time lurker.
Have a quick question. I've recently switched over to survival from BM, and in doing so I've picked up the serpent sting glyph. It's great, and handy and all that, but the timing for it is much longer then I'm used to and I'm having a bit of trouble adjusting. I'm currently using a couple of addons to help track cooldowns, but I'm I'm having difficulty finding one that will track debuffs on enemy targets. I'm looking for something similar to Scorchio 2 for mages. Any advice on what works for you would be great and appreciated. Thanks for you time.
TellMeWhen.
Set it up to tell you when your target (a) doesn't have your sting (b) you are in combat.
Actually kolboi, many people have shown on the spreadsheet that the best build indeed does include aspect of the hawk, the highest being a 6/14/51 build, I would take a look at the other thread discussing this.
Thanks Ekhowl. And Tred, there's absolutely no reason to resort to name calling because I wanted a simple answer about addons and after several pages of going through discussions of rotation, opinions on spec and talents I decided not to spend god knows how long looking through 38 pages of said material when I just didn't see my question being addressed.
Last edited by jsterr1 : 01/25/09 at 9:25 PM.
Reason: double post...thought I was muted
at the beginning of this thread the 6/14/51 spec is shown.
But when I respecced to SV I ended up with this version of the 4/16/51 build (my spec)
The differences are:
My build takes 3/3 in Hawk Eye and 0/2 in Savage Strikes, instead of 1/3 in Hawk Eye and 2/3 in Savage Strikes.
the other difference is that my build has 3/3 Expose weakness, but the build linked on this first site has 2/3 expose weakness and gives the last point to 1/5 hunting Party instead.
These small Differences, does it has a huge outcome on the DPS?
What other positive and negative inpacts does my version have compared to this threads version?
Set it up to tell you when your target (a) doesn't have your sting (b) you are in combat.
Thanks very much! This is exactly what I was looking for. As an added pleasant side-effect, I'm using this to give me a larger more visual notice of my LnL procs. I'll be passing this one on for sure.
at the beginning of this thread the 6/14/51 spec is shown.
But when I respecced to SV I ended up with this version of the 4/16/51 build (my spec)
The differences are:
My build takes 3/3 in Hawk Eye and 0/2 in Savage Strikes, instead of 1/3 in Hawk Eye and 2/3 in Savage Strikes.
the other difference is that my build has 3/3 Expose weakness, but the build linked on this first site has 2/3 expose weakness and gives the last point to 1/5 hunting Party instead.
These small Differences, does it has a huge outcome on the DPS?
What other positive and negative inpacts does my version have compared to this threads version?
Thanks!
So, has there been more math (real-world) on 2/18/51 vs the 4/16/51 builds?.. I remember lots of discussion back a few pages, but don't remember anything definative..
at the beginning of this thread the 6/14/51 spec is shown.
But when I respecced to SV I ended up with this version of the 4/16/51 build (my spec)
The differences are:
My build takes 3/3 in Hawk Eye and 0/2 in Savage Strikes, instead of 1/3 in Hawk Eye and 2/3 in Savage Strikes.
the other difference is that my build has 3/3 Expose weakness, but the build linked on this first site has 2/3 expose weakness and gives the last point to 1/5 hunting Party instead.
These small Differences, does it has a huge outcome on the DPS?
What other positive and negative inpacts does my version have compared to this threads version?
Putting points into Hawk Eye and Sniper Training while also putting 2 points into Savage Strikes is a waste of points and a direct contradiction to how each works. If you're going to trap dance, then there is no need to invest points in Hawk Eye/Sniper Training. If you're going to play straight up, Savage Strikes is a sink hole in talent points.
And for the record, there is no consensus on what is the best overall spec. Right now, all we have is early reporting and conjecture by a few hunters in varying gear and play styles.
Putting points into Hawk Eye and Sniper Training while also putting 2 points into Savage Strikes is a waste of points and a direct contradiction to how each works. If you're going to trap dance, then there is no need to invest points in Hawk Eye/Sniper Training. If you're going to play straight up, Savage Strikes is a sink hole in talent points.
And for the record, there is no consensus on what is the best overall spec. Right now, all we have is early reporting and conjecture by a few hunters in varying gear and play styles.
thanx for the feedback.
I believe I'll stick to my own version of the 4/16/51 build then, since I'm not a big fan av trap dancing ^^
atleast I'll stick to it until proven otherwise about the best dps build.
but one thing. Is it worth it to take 1 point from Expose weakness (making it 2/3) and putting that point onto Hunting Party (making it 1/5) ?
I can see it has it's worth for other people in the raid, but won't it drop your possible max dps?
thanx for the feedback.
but one thing. Is it worth it to take 1 point from Expose weakness (making it 2/3) and putting that point onto Hunting Party (making it 1/5) ?
I can see it has it's worth for other people in the raid, but won't it drop your possible max dps?
The truly ridiculous amount of critical strike chance sustained in a Survival build will mean that 2/3 expose weakness will still be 100% uptime for you.
Really Iru? The only theoretical argument against firing another shot between LnL Expl. Shots that I could find is by Lerastes/Sayhon here and here. Or did I miss some other post with a demonstration?
Well it is hard to blame you when the information is in the PTR thread. http://elitistjerks.com/1035994-post207.html
This isn't the only post, but unlessI was going to point you to a lengthy discussion, I rather wanted to present the most simple yet most complete info. But adding Aimed to ES delays apparently appears to be an upgrade. The posts also assume fully hasted Steadies, so if they are not they are definately not worth interleaving. And since I have some 130 Haste I have to hope for Imp Hawk proccing along with a Ret in the raid. Since we have no Ret at all, and Imp Hawk can't be trusted, I'd rather time my shots, or try to. It is the only way I can get better. I might be doing a little less DPS now, but when I get the practice down it should be well worth my efforts.
Wayfarere I guess your suggestion comes close, if that is possible. Will have to check it out. Thanks.
[EDIT] I tried it and it works perfectly.
Bovii, it's hardly a contradiction as there are bosses where we can trap and bosses where it is not all that easy or even possible. In either case, how would you get to Tier 3 anyway? Might as well get some range for when we need it. As for Sniper Training, well again the question is, where else? At least this suboptimal talents adds a bonus to Kill Shot regardless of range, and it gives a very nice bonus on fights where you have can't trap the boss. And better yet it adds a lot of damage on bosses where you can trap at max range, thinking Gluth or Noth/Anub if there are other kiters and/or the addtank will pull them across your traps. Personally I did that for another Surv Hunter on Gluth, double Frost Traps really made it easy to kite while giving my buddy a lot of extra DPS (if only it had been reversed *sigh*). It is hardly optimal, that's more than just true, but I think that's pretty much the story of the entire tree until Explosive Shot.
So yeah the talents are contradictory on Patchwerk or a dummy, but there are plenty overlapping cases where both types can apply.
Last edited by KraxisSingular : 01/26/09 at 1:48 AM.
Managed 5700 DPS on Patchwerk last night, without trap dancing. I can do it and I've tried pre-3.0.8, but I just hate the whole mechanic and just decided not to do it. Sure I could have done 5800 or so had I, but eh, 5700 ain't too shabby in my opinion. I probably could have gotten a little more had I been smarter with my Loatheb's Shadow and Kill Command, but eh. I was using the 3 straight Explosive Shots on LnL, waiting til after the 2nd tick to shoot to make sure it ticked its third tick before the shot actually landed. Still getting used to using Aimed Shot over Steady Shot which can seem kind of clunky at first. Still kind of used to playing as Survival the last couple of months with all Steady Shots in between Explosive's.
My spec: 1/18/52 I'd love to lose Hunting party and put maybe another point into Imp Hawk or GftT, but I usually run 10 man raids where I bring replenishment most of the time, so what are you gonna do.
Managed 5700 DPS on Patchwerk last night, without trap dancing. I can do it and I've tried pre-3.0.8, but I just hate the whole mechanic and just decided not to do it. Sure I could have done 5800 or so had I, but eh, 5700 ain't too shabby in my opinion. I probably could have gotten a little more had I been smarter with my Loatheb's Shadow and Kill Command, but eh. I was using the 3 straight Explosive Shots on LnL, waiting til after the 2nd tick to shoot to make sure it ticked its third tick before the shot actually landed. Still getting used to using Aimed Shot over Steady Shot which can seem kind of clunky at first. Still kind of used to playing as Survival the last couple of months with all Steady Shots in between Explosive's.
My spec: 1/18/52 I'd love to lose Hunting party and put maybe another point into Imp Hawk or GftT, but I usually run 10 man raids where I bring replenishment most of the time, so what are you gonna do.
Glad to hear that to be honest. My laptop ain't the best so if I were to try Trap dance then I would probably have just enough lag to make raiding impossible. I suppose you were standing +30y away so did you miss any buffs?
I haven't tried a proper raid yet as Survival in Wrath as the one yesterday got cancelled due to healers missing.
Managed 5700 DPS on Patchwerk last night, without trap dancing. I can do it and I've tried pre-3.0.8, but I just hate the whole mechanic and just decided not to do it. Sure I could have done 5800 or so had I, but eh, 5700 ain't too shabby in my opinion. I probably could have gotten a little more had I been smarter with my Loatheb's Shadow and Kill Command, but eh. I was using the 3 straight Explosive Shots on LnL, waiting til after the 2nd tick to shoot to make sure it ticked its third tick before the shot actually landed. Still getting used to using Aimed Shot over Steady Shot which can seem kind of clunky at first. Still kind of used to playing as Survival the last couple of months with all Steady Shots in between Explosive's.
My spec: 1/18/52 I'd love to lose Hunting party and put maybe another point into Imp Hawk or GftT, but I usually run 10 man raids where I bring replenishment most of the time, so what are you gonna do.
Would a Quartz timer solve this problem? That is, make a macro that casts Explosive Shot and starts a timer, like this:
/cast Explosive Shot
/qt ESDot 2
Thanks, that should work. When you press the next Explosive Shot button right when that timer expires shot travel time and constant lag should not matter unlike the debuff timer variants.
So what is the gain of timing explosives vs. interleaving and is it worth the risk?
The normal rotation starts with the third Explosive Shot again. For simplicity Aimed Shot and Serpent Sting refresh is not considered. So the rotation is ES SS SS SS.
L&L proc with variant 1 (v1, interleaving): ES SS ES SS
L&L proc with variant 2 (v2, timing): ES Wait ES Wait
ctSS = casting time of 1 steady shot
tdl = timing delay (you have to balance tick eating and timing loss)
Duration of v1: 3s + 2* ctSS
Duration of v2: 4s + 2* tdl
So after how many L&L procs do you get a full extra rotation?
Duration of normal rotation: 1.5s + 3* ctSS
The gain in normal rotation time of v2 per L&L proc is 2* ctSS - 2* tdl - 1s.
So every pn = (1.5s + 3* ctSS) / (2* ctSS - 2* tdl - 1s) L&L procs you get a full extra rotation.
The damage of the procs and the extra rotation (both do the normal rotation in between so no need to consider that):
v1 did 2*pn ES and 2*pn SS.
v2 did (2*pn+1) ES and 3 SS.
So the equal point where the damage of both rotations is the same is:
2*pn*dES + 2*pn*dSS = 2*pn*dES + dES + 3*dSS
pn = 1.5 + dES/(2*dSS)
So when you insert that into the equation for the full extra rotation:
Lets put in some values. I assume soft haste cap, so ctSS = 1.5s.
1.5 + dES/(2*dSS) = 6s / (2s - 2* tdl)
Now perfect timing (so the maximum you can gain): tdl = 0s
dES/(2*dSS) = 1.5
dES = 3*dSS
This result means that if you are soft haste capped and have perfect execution, then timing is a gain over interleaving.
Now lets look at how good you have to be at it so it is still a gain (or at least no loss):
Still soft haste capped. I use dES and dSS values from the spreadsheet with my gear/buffs/talents:
dES = 10376
dSS = 2223
2s - 2* tdl = 1.565s
tdl = 0.217s
So if you are soft haste capped you have to time your explosives with an accuracy of better than 0.217s (and without any tick eating). Otherwise interleaving is better.
In comparison the same calculation with only quiver haste and no haste on gear, so ctSS = 1.7s:
1.5 + 10376/(2*2223) = 6.6s / (2.4s - 2* tdl)
3.834 = 6.6s / (2.4s - 2* tdl)
2.4s - 2* tdl = 1.722s
tdl = 0.339s
So even without any haste on gear (which is the best case for the timing variant) and without weaving in aimed or serpent you only have a timing window of 1/3s on average to actually gain something. In reality you will have iAotH, rapid fire and similar so that extreme case is only true part of the time even with no haste on gear.
Looking at the numbers I am not sure if timing is a good idea as you have to be pretty accurate and then risk eating a tick which is quite a high price.
I wonder abit about resists on Explosive shot, not played Survival before in WotLK so after my first attempt yesterday I was eager to look into the WWS and see where I can improve, was some stuff that I need to sort out but one thing stood out that I don't know how to handle, resistance.
I'm a bit unsecure about the mechanics for ES, it is a physical attack but it deals magical damage so some areas are unclear to me.
Here is a few seconds of ES:
21:47'36.358 Sartharion is afflicted by Explosive Shot.
21:47'36.759 Houze Explosive Shot hits Sartharion for 4357 Fire. (Critical) (180 Resisted)
21:47'37.827 Houze Explosive Shot hits Sartharion for 2036 Fire.
21:47'38.624 Houze Explosive Shot hits Sartharion for 2036 Fire.
21:47'42.749 Sartharion is afflicted by Explosive Shot.
21:47'43.249 Houze Explosive Shot hits Sartharion for 3846 Fire. (Critical) (358 Resisted)
21:47'44.360 Houze Explosive Shot hits Sartharion for 3846 Fire. (Critical) (358 Resisted)
21:47'45.671 Houze Explosive Shot hits Sartharion for 4250 Fire. (Critical) (176 Resisted)
21:47'45.905 Houze Explosive Shot hits Sartharion for 4722 Fire. (Critical)
21:47'47.076 Houze Explosive Shot hits Sartharion for 4722 Fire. (Critical)
21:47'47.498 Sartharion is afflicted by Explosive Shot.
21:47'48.296 Houze Explosive Shot hits Sartharion for 1755 Fire. (173 Resisted)
21:47'49.405 Houze Explosive Shot hits Sartharion for 4175 Fire. (Critical) (173 Resisted)
21:47'50.260 Houze Explosive Shot hits Sartharion for 4175 Fire. (Critical) (173 Resisted)
21:47'54.211 Sartharion is afflicted by Explosive Shot.
Comment: As you see I miss one dot in the middle here during a L'n'L with some bad timing, guess it's better to weave in SS/Aimed/Serpent between ES until I get a new computer that can do better than 5-10 FPS during boss-fights.
Overall I had 2.7% of my explosive shot damage resisted, is there anything that can be done to improve this?
I'm not hit-capped atm, 6.5% hit so missing 0.5% (always put a dranei in the group) but prefer it over breaking T7.5 setbonus and need some haste to get the SS down to 1.5s. Would +hit decrease the resistance?
We are low on warlocks, only 1 yesterday and as he was affliction he used Curse of Agony and not Curse of Elements, would CoE with it's -165 resistance on target remove my resists for ES?
I guess Serpent Sting have the same problem, 4% of it's total damage was mitigated by resists but Serpent is such a low contribution to overall damage that I havn't thought if this problem before but now with ES doing like 35% it's starting to stand out.
Did you notice any problems with melee applied buffs falling off (ie horn of winter)? This has been my concern with sniper training the way it is.
Hmm, thats a good question, I wasn't even thinking about Horn of Winter. The Deathknight in my raid had the glyph that made it 3 minutes, and he popped it as PW was being pulled so I had it the full fight since it was a sub 3 minute kill. However, our blood DK couldn't give me hysteria like he wanted to because I was too far away. 20% more damage would have been pretty sweet. Next time around I'm gonna keep an eye on that.
Thinking on that, they should either make sniper training 25 yards out, or make every buff have a 40 yard range. Kinda lame that they don't.
Umm. If I'm understanding your first question properly, I suspect that the paper doll is showing the effects of the BM Serpent's Swiftness (at 5/5, this increase your haste by 20%).
Regarding IAotH... my understanding is that the first point there is the most important (to enable the glyph). After that, I think it's a bit of a question of game play and gear level. Do you plan to trap dance? Do you have enough crit to live with 1/2 GftT and 2/5 HP? Are you having mana problems in your raids?
If trap-dancing isn't your style, you might just go with exactly the same spec as Cilithan -- his looks like something I might tend towards myself.
So I've switched to Survival over the weekend and I just love it. At first, I was having a bit of trouble getting used to it... I joined a Sarth 25man pug and was like 15 in DPS meters... but it was my first raid/dungeon after switching to SV. But after that, I started getting used to the spec. Now, I'm almost always 1st in DPS meters.
So anyways, after playing around with it a bit.. I noticed a few thing.
1. In 25man Arch, my group had 2 SV hunter, 1 Shadow Priest and 1-2 Ret Pally. I did the whole fight at FULL mana. Would it be better for me to move my points from Efficiency to Improved Stings.
2. I am not sure what shot rotation to use.
I've been using: ES > SS > SS > SS > ES > SS > SS > SS
... and on LnL procs: ES > SS > ES > SS > ES > SS ...
Would it be better for me to throw in Aimed Shot in there? I'm not sure if my glyphed SS does more damage that Aimed.
3. I haven't really been doing trap dancing. I sometimes do it on some fights, but mostly I'm just relying on Serpent Sting to proc Lock and Load. That said, how should I rearrange my talent points to maximise my dps.
My stats in a 5man last night with 2 pallies (kings and might) and a priest, were 4500 AP, 36% crit.
So anyways, after playing around with it a bit.. I noticed a few thing.
1. In 25man Arch, my group had 2 SV hunter, 1 Shadow Priest and 1-2 Ret Pally. I did the whole fight at FULL mana. Would it be better for me to move my points from Efficiency to Improved Stings.
2. I am not sure what shot rotation to use.
I've been using: ES > SS > SS > SS > ES > SS > SS > SS
... and on LnL procs: ES > SS > ES > SS > ES > SS ...
Would it be better for me to throw in Aimed Shot in there? I'm not sure if my glyphed SS does more damage that Aimed.
3. I haven't really been doing trap dancing. I sometimes do it on some fights, but mostly I'm just relying on Serpent Sting to proc Lock and Load. That said, how should I rearrange my talent points to maximise my dps.
My stats in a 5man last night with 2 pallies (kings and might) and a priest, were 4500 AP, 36% crit.
Thanks again.
Most of these questions are answered throughout this thread, but anyway...
1) Yes, switch from Efficiency to Improved Stings
2a) ES->Aimed->SS->SS->ES. Aimed does more damage than Steady Shot
2b) With LnL, use ES->ES->ES, waiting around a second before you cast each ES
3) The OP should have a couple spec's listed that you might find interesting, as well as others have posted spec's they use.
I am asking myself if a raptor would be better than a cat only with a 6/14/51 specc, because of the +10% crit bonus of kill command which this specc would offer? I think without this talent (Focused Fire) the difference should be minimal.
It seems to me that waiting for Explosive shot ticks to end then casting another while under LnL would be better.
Under lock and load...
First ES > 1.5 seconds for GCD with a 1 tick per 2 seconds. That'd be .5 seconds over the GCD.
Where as if you weave shots like Steady or Aimed you'd have
ES > 1.5 sec for GCD > Aimed > Another 1.5 seconds for GCD. The 2 ticks would already be up in the middle of that.
Steady shot would be the same way except more time would pass than another 1.5 if you aren't haste capped.
Yes; did you miss where we discussed this for a couple pages? Optimal dps is achieved by timing your ES to arrive just after the last tick goes off. However, due to latency, it is better to wait a bit longer than clip your ES tick, which is why it is generally recommended that you interleave a shot between LnL ES's unless you have incredibly low latency.
but one thing. Is it worth it to take 1 point from Expose weakness (making it 2/3) and putting that point onto Hunting Party (making it 1/5) ?
I can see it has it's worth for other people in the raid, but won't it drop your possible max dps?
As someone already mentioned, 2/3 in Expose Weakness is more than enough to guarantee almost constant uptime. I've been lately running with 2/17/52 Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and with a bit over 35% crit chance not only makes EW stay up all the time but also only 2/5 in Hunting Party results in ~90% uptime. So yeah, as the Survival base crit is so high, spending less on crit-based talents like 1/2 in Go for the Throat, 2/3 in Expose Weakness and 2/5 in Hunting Party is perfectly viable to produce considerable uptime and especially when that crit is more like over 40% raidbuffed, not counting procs, extra crit buffing for Explosive Shots from talents like e.g T.N.T and so on. I've never even considered putting more than 2 points in EW, tbh. :-)
01/25/09, 8:00 PM
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