The Survival Hunter in WotLK - Page 4

Cilithan · 12/08/08, 5:51 AM

Thanks Winged for spotting the sloppy mistakes. Edited accordingly.

Also added a portion on Enchants and gave the Professions part of the first post (some) more body (with thanks to Rivkah and others).

When the discussion on using Immolationtrap in your rotation on stationary Bosses has produced some hard data, I'll weave that into the first post too.

brainzelda · 12/08/08, 6:16 AM

I'm an alchemist that just respecced survival and was wondering if mighty agility is actually more beneficial to a survival hunter than the endless rage flask due to all the agility-focused talents like lightning reflexes and ew. any thoughts on this? Thanks.

Rivkah · 12/08/08, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by brainzelda

I'm an alchemist that just respecced survival and was wondering if mighty agility is actually more beneficial to a survival hunter than the endless rage flask due to all the agility-focused talents like lightning reflexes and ew. any thoughts on this? Thanks.

I was going to say that this is unlikely to be competitive with the flask of endless rage (180 AP), however mighty agility is 45 agil (which would be 57 agil with LR and kings) and if paired with elixir of mighty thoughts which is 45 int, the 45 agil would have to compete with 135 AP. Although I doubt you would get 135 AP worth of value out of the 45 agil, on fights where mana is tight, the extra mana from 45 int could possibly make it a close enough case to consider it. I don't think it'd make sense to go this route for the most part as the elixirs would probably cost you more on wipe fights, but I always carry some elixirs for when my flask runs out and there isn't enough raid to justify a second one (or sometimes to delay flasking till later in the night). So pairing those two will sometimes make sense.

One thing to note, for an alchemist I think it is likely to be actually worse to use this combo over a flask, as I believe the flask bonus from mixology is higher than it is for elixirs. I haven't run specific tests on those two elixirs so I'll check it out next time I have an opportunity, but for a flask of endless rage you get a 64 AP bonus from mixology if you can make it.

Namarus · 12/08/08, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

I would say stuff like Wraith Spear is pretty much optimized for Hunters. Loads of Agi, not too much Stamina and jampacked with ratings and AP. That's the normal Hunter approach. While Warriors and DKs are looking at Str first and foremost, and often a lot more Stamina. This polearm isn't that great for them. It is a perfectly viable and acceptable weapon going from blue... sure. But even to selfish twohander people it should be obvious. Just like no idiot would roll on tankguns, even if they had higher DPS (heard of an MM with a 1:1 rotation back in the day with Rifle of the Stoic Guardian).
Blizzard has become better at balancing the gear out a bit towards intended roles. But with more stats to shuffle around it is of course also easier.
But the best thing is just being sensible about it in general

Any agility 2-hander right now is great for a tanking deathknight. Hell with the dps that weapons like Black Ice etc.. put out, ret paladins are taking them. (Which has happened to me.) They are not ideal weapons but they are up there in terms of dps, 2nd or 3rd best in slot for them. So plan accordingly.

Rivkah · 12/08/08, 2:12 PM

Technically from a strict itemization bonus standpoint, hunters should be better off with 2 1H weapons, because the 1H enchants are superior, especially in the case of the accuracy enchant which is a far greater itemization value than the closest 2H 110 AP enchant (100 points of a pure stat versus the 55 that AP would convert to in value). But it's difficult to find 2 1H weapons that give enough stats to compare to something like Black Ice even with the enchants calculated in, and with the ridiculous cost on the high end enchants (on my server it'd cost you about 2k in mats to enchant one weapon with accuracy at last check), I expect most hunters will be going after the 2H weapons at least for the short term.

I'm still rather surprised they didn't put a 2H limitation on the accuracy enchant since it's obvious from an itemization standpoint that it's way overbudget for a 1H.

Namarus · 12/08/08, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by Rivkah

Technically from a strict itemization bonus standpoint, hunters should be better off with 2 1H weapons, because the 1H enchants are superior, especially in the case of the accuracy enchant which is a far greater itemization value than the closest 2H 110 AP enchant (100 points of a pure stat versus the 55 that AP would convert to in value). But it's difficult to find 2 1H weapons that give enough stats to compare to something like Black Ice even with the enchants calculated in, and with the ridiculous cost on the high end enchants (on my server it'd cost you about 2k in mats to enchant one weapon with accuracy at last check), I expect most hunters will be going after the 2H weapons at least for the short term.

I'm still rather surprised they didn't put a 2H limitation on the accuracy enchant since it's obvious from an itemization standpoint that it's way overbudget for a 1H.

I agree with you. 1-handers are the way to go with accuracy on them. However, I do not think I will spend the gold on that enchant until I get a best in slot 1-hander. With lines of rogues after Sinister Revenger, there is always the possibility that Hailstorm is a decent substitute.

KraxisSingular · 12/08/08, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by Namarus

Any agility 2-hander right now is great for a tanking deathknight. Hell with the dps that weapons like Black Ice etc.. put out, ret paladins are taking them. (Which has happened to me.) They are not ideal weapons but they are up there in terms of dps, 2nd or 3rd best in slot for them. So plan accordingly.

Well the point is the Wraith Spear is terribly light on Stam, something like less than half of most Strength twohanders. And as far as I have understood DKs scale better defensively with Strength (for Parry) than they do with Agility for Dodge. So that would make the spear a rather poor choice.
A ret is obviously going to like it since Paladins have one of the best Agi-crit conversions. But it still not optimzed for them.

Now if the spear is actually any good for us is another matter, and 2-hander vs 1-handers is a completely different game again.

Regarding the enchants, I think the Accuracy is supposed to be a 'passive' version of the proc AP enchant. At least this time we are given a truly good passive enchant, which is the best we can hope for if they won't give us ranged procs.

Namarus · 12/08/08, 5:46 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Well the point is the Wraith Spear is terribly light on Stam, something like less than half of most Strength twohanders. And as far as I have understood DKs scale better defensively with Strength (for Parry) than they do with Agility for Dodge. So that would make the spear a rather poor choice.
A ret is obviously going to like it since Paladins have one of the best Agi-crit conversions. But it still not optimzed for them.

Now if the spear is actually any good for us is another matter, and 2-hander vs 1-handers is a completely different game again.

Regarding the enchants, I think the Accuracy is supposed to be a 'passive' version of the proc AP enchant. At least this time we are given a truly good passive enchant, which is the best we can hope for if they won't give us ranged procs.

You seem to be stuck on talking about wraith spear, when I haven't mentioned it at all.

Kisai · 12/08/08, 6:26 PM

ENGINEERING

BoP Headslot item, unlike in TBC these won't last you the first few Tierlevels, but at least they have Agility now: Truesight Ice Blinders

Some utility as wipe recovery with Shockers and FD.

Hyperspeed accelerators, gloves enchant-- use: +340 haste rating during 8 seconds, 2min cooldown

everyone seems to forget about this one.

Korvek · 12/08/08, 11:43 PM

Boss hit boxes are so buggy or retarded, its near impossible to place immolation traps in a stationary state on a lot of bosses. You can be in melee range of a boss and because of the mechanics of hit boxes, the trap will never even activate unless its close to the center of the actual hit box and not the endges.

However, I still think it is worth it to place immolation traps on bosses by positioning yourself during the GCD of an explosive shot or serpent sting and positioning yourself back out to minimum shoot range during the GCD of the immolation trap.

I also wonder if it would be more helpful to macro disengage and immolation trap together so you jump out instantly after placing the immolation trap.

When using immolation trap rotations on a test dummy in a stationary state, my personal damage (not pet) was spread out pretty evenly with 30% explosive shot, 30% steady shot, and 30% autoshot, with the other 10% being spread out in serpent sting and immolation trap.

Zerlu · 12/09/08, 1:00 AM

Originally Posted by Korvek

Boss hit boxes are so buggy or retarded, its near impossible to place immolation traps in a stationary state on a lot of bosses. You can be in melee range of a boss and because of the mechanics of hit boxes, the trap will never even activate unless its close to the center of the actual hit box and not the endges.

However, I still think it is worth it to place immolation traps on bosses by positioning yourself during the GCD of an explosive shot or serpent sting and positioning yourself back out to minimum shoot range during the GCD of the immolation trap.

I also wonder if it would be more helpful to macro disengage and immolation trap together so you jump out instantly after placing the immolation trap.

When using immolation trap rotations on a test dummy in a stationary state, my personal damage (not pet) was spread out pretty evenly with 30% explosive shot, 30% steady shot, and 30% autoshot, with the other 10% being spread out in serpent sting and immolation trap.

WWS Loading...

Thats the results of a 10 man Naxx run. I didn't have Resourcefulness or the Immo trap glyph.

Rotation:

Serp Sting, Immo. Trap, ES, SS, ES, SS, ES, SS

After the first round, I would try to place a Immo trap following the ES, SS, SS pattern (so it became ES, SS, SS, Immo, LnL)

I tried to stick to this as best I was able. When it came to Viper, I would fire off a Serpsting, and a ES while in Dhawk, and then slip into viper with those two DoTs up. Generally speaking I didn't spend much time in Viper.

Honestly, given my gear, and the fact that I had never seen the inside of Naxx before, I didnt do half bad. I found places to use LnL (any adds....at all), and it usually resulted in a DPS gain. While my ES don't hit particularly hard, I think that may be my gear speaking. Given some more RAP, I think the superior scaling of ES would increase the damage. Of course, one test isn't enough, so hopefully I can get into a 10/25 naxx this week for more testing.

My personal feelings: On the majority of bosses we did (Abom. and Plague Wing) it is not overly difficult to place an Immo/Explosive trap to get an LnL proc. The largest pain was Saph. and I'm fairly sure her hit box makes it next to impossible to dance back and forth placing traps. Other than that, I'll need to do further testing, and probably with the Glyph and Resourcefulness.

KraxisSingular · 12/09/08, 1:16 AM

Originally Posted by Namarus

You seem to be stuck on talking about wraith spear, when I haven't mentioned it at all.

You didn't need to when you said any... that little word means Wraith Spear by extension. If you had said most I would either not have commented or agreed.

Namarus · 12/09/08, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Arcazua

I've always been both a math-head that min/max'es and a heedless player that throws all that knowledge to the wind and does other things. My current spec I'm playing with says quite a bit about that.

A few side comments about SV builds, though I have no LK raid experience yet (even Naxx 10) to draw from, just my theorycrafting:

Here are a few comments of my own after clearing all raid content.

* There are some utility aspects to survival, but do not think that we are a great utility tree anymore. With expose weakness gone, and replaced with replenishment our utility has gone down hill. In a standard 10 man raid you might be the only person providing replenishment, or then again you might be the 2nd or 3rd person. Where as in a 25 man raid it is very unlikely that you will be the only person providing replenishment. Therefore you should be justifying your raid spot by doing "good" dps.

* Much of the survival tree is about fluff, not much substance to it all, and even our 41 point talent is lackluster. Get used it.

* Playing survival is about being able to manage the procs you will be getting from various talents and being able to use them at the best times.

* People question hastes usefulness as a marksman and as survival. I personally believe that haste is a "ok" stat since so much of our gear has it. Right now looking at the spreadsheet in general the best way to gear is accept whatever is an upgrade whether it has haste or not. Just do not go out of your way to get haste. While people question latency affecting haste and the global cooldown, server commands are queued. So if your are spamming out shot rotations while affected by latency provided your not using a cast sequence macro your shots should still go off relatively well.

* If anything in terms of scaleability you just cannot beat what a survival hunter gets in terms of stats. On mail dps gear we benefit from it all (apart from the expertise pieces). This can only get better as more and more raid instances are released. I remember sitting at around 7k hit points buffed when entering Karazhan in BC, and leaving Sunwell with around 13k. So considering that the currently raid instances are entry level I would expect that gear will just get better and better for us.

* As stated before I disagree with calling MT, HP and ST dead weight. There is only one fight at the moment where you would not get any benefit from Master Tactician and that would be Loatheb

Breaking down all of the raid encounters so far.

Arachnid Quarter

* Anub'Rekhan Useable
* Grand Widow Faerlina Useable
* Maexxna Useable

Plague Quarter

* Noth the Plaguebringer Useable, putting traps down for the adds to walk over gets some nice LnL procs
* Heigan the Unclean Sniper training can lose out here
* Loatheb Master Tactician loses out here

Military Quarter

* Instructor Razuvious Useable
* Gothik the Harvester Useable, putting traps down for the adds to walk over gets some nice LnL procs, plus since you know the location of where Gothik teleports you could have immolation traps waiting for him.
* The Four Horsemen Useable

Construct Quarter

* Patchwerk Useable
* Grobbulus Useable
* Gluth Useable, putting traps down for the adds to walk over gets some nice LnL procs
* Thaddius Sniper Training loses out here.

Frostwyrm Lair

* Sapphiron Useable
* Kel'Thuzad Useable

Obsidian Sanctum In all cases you can put traps down for LnL procs on the adds.

* 0 drakes Useable
* 1 drake Useable,
* 2 drakes Useable
* 3 drakes Useable, getting space to use sniper training can be difficult

The Eye Of Eternity

* Malygos Useable, you do have to watch out on this fight if you are killing the sparks since TNT can stun the sparks causing them to die outside designated dps areas.

Dawnhoof · 12/10/08, 5:44 AM

Although also Marksmanship Hunters still need some amount of Haste-Rating to reach the GCD with Steadyshot, they tend to put at least 7 points into the Beastmaster-Tree. So this is mainly adressing Survival Hunters.

In these days many Level 80 Raid specs for a Survival Hunter seem to include improved Aspect of the Hawk. Sometimes just because of the usefullness of iAotH (5/15/41 Spec) or to reach Tier 2 where you can get Focused Fire (6/14/41 or 7/13/41). Focused Fire is a quite worthy investment for your talentpoints but when you're like me not willing to sacrifice Aimed Shot for Focused Fire, you're stuck with a maximum amount of 5 points into the Beastmaster Tree, unless you do really crazy shit.

So what i wanted to know was: How much points should i spend for iAotH, which directly depends on how much haste you have on your Equipment. Reaching the GCD for Steadyshot means getting 25 % haste. So it's:

Haste by Gear * Haste by Talents * Haste by quiver/pouch = 1,25

This way you can calculate how much points you need to put into iAotH to get Steadyshot casting time down to (or below) the GCD when it proccs.

Haste	points iaoth
> 522	0
412-522	1
308-411	2
209-307	3
115-208	4
27-114	5
<27	n/a

If you take the Glyph of iAotH:

Haste	points iaoth
> 522	0 (not worth to take the glyph)
412-521	1 (but drop the glyph)
209-411	1
115-208	2
27-114	3
0-26	4

If you're next to the upper barrier of a haste-interval you might want to put one point less into iAotH and miss the GCD just by some ms.

Littlestan-Kel · 12/10/08, 3:03 PM

Through BC I played two Hunters to 70, both with SV specs all the way. While it was not the most efficient way to level, I have always thought it better to level with your intended endgame spec so you know it in and out. In the 4 years I have played WoW, the SV Hunter was the only class/spec that truly got my attention and brought out the best in me.

Now, I am saddened to find they have removed much of the usefulness of my favorite spec. I am now coming back to the game, and wanted to play my Hunter, but I have been told by my friends the CC utility of the spec, the sole reason I played the Hunter, is fairly useless.

Why take a Hunter with traps when you can take a Mage with Poly? Dual trapping and using Wyvern Sting to lock down three mobs consistently is what made the class fun for me. I have never been much of a DPS whore (no offense to those who DPS, I just have never cared for it) and want something more from my time in dungeons.

Taking into count there can always be an exception to the rule, is it safe to assume that most times, the utility CC of the SV spec is useless? Has WotLK changed the utility of this spec so much that folks now turn to it for DPS, rather than CC?

I am looking for some honest feedback. EJ has got to be the best set of forums for intellectual posts (most of the time). Have my friends been accurate in their assessment, that a SV Hunter is no longer needed where it once was, or have things not changed much since BC?

Thanks!