The Survival Hunter in WotLK - Page 5

Cilithan · 12/11/08, 8:24 AM

Since the information on the proposed changes I've been working on rotations that tune down the percentage of Steady Shot in SV Hunters overall damage. As gear gets better it becomes more and more important to lower the amount of Steady's in favor of better scaling abilities/shots.

Aimed Shot will most likely be worth the increased manacost and the talentpoint for SV Hunters.

Using Immolation Trap in rotations - possibly valid at the moment allready - will become even more valid in a rotation to increase the amount of Explosive Shots through L&L and decreasing the amount of Steady's. Since Blizzard may buff the scaling part of Explosive shot again, this may become even more valid. Immolation itself is more damage per GCD compared to Steady as well, especially with the Glyph and the Trap Mastery talent. Practice will learn how much damage we'll lose because of moving.

Using both abilities might increase manausage to the extent that increased Vipertime has to be taken into account. Could this in time make Efficiency an important talent? I'm pondering on this spec:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

(When lacking Hasterating on Gear replace Efficiency with ImpAotHawk)

In an ideal rotation with the following priority: Serpent>Immolation>Explosive>Aimed>Steady (with enough haste) a distribution of 5 Serpents/3 Immolation/16 Explosive (with 4L&L)/6 Aimed and 20 Steady every 50 GCD's looks possible. Thats a substantial part of a max damage rotation from different sources than Steady.

Rutnut · 12/11/08, 4:15 PM

I'm toying with the survival option since we don't have a constant ret pally, and our spriest has been AWOL for a while.

But the thing I can't figure out, is why no builds take Imp. Stings? We're obviously trying to keep serpent sting up for the majority of all fights - does IAotH really outweigh 30% serpent sting damage?

I suppose I'll try and test this out tonight when I get home, but if anyone has any experience or thoughts on this it would be greatly appreciated.

Salanei · 12/11/08, 4:40 PM

Originally Posted by Rutnut

I'm toying with the survival option since we don't have a constant ret pally, and our spriest has been AWOL for a while.

But the thing I can't figure out, is why no builds take Imp. Stings? We're obviously trying to keep serpent sting up for the majority of all fights - does IAotH really outweigh 30% serpent sting damage?

I suppose I'll try and test this out tonight when I get home, but if anyone has any experience or thoughts on this it would be greatly appreciated.

The reason IAotH is taken over Imp. Stings is that till we have enough haste on gear to bring Steady down to 1.5s cast, it helps, a lot.

Tiberium · 12/12/08, 4:37 AM

I really find myself disappointed at the complete and total lack of response to the upcoming "Hunter" nerfs right here in the SV thread. Actually there is 1 post. We should all be screaming from the rooftops that the SS nerf is ludicrous when considering SV raiding.

Perhaps the lack of SV takeup is perfect confirmation that SV hunters are next to useless for raiding. No doubt due to the "Beta" nerfs to explosive shot. In fact if anyone could confirm the current take up of SV it would be greatly apreciated as a butress to the fact that the proposed Hunter "Steady Shot" nerf is just plain wrong. BM pets are doing 60% of BM hunter damage???? Surely the needed nerf is as plain as your nose, nerf BM Pet talents. Not the mainstay of the survival build.

So we are already the poor relation of the 3 specs and what does Blizz propose to do? Well, Nerf SV and Nerf us hard. Here is a copy of the proposed changes once plugged into the spreadsheet.

Read it and weep.

Originally Posted by Esoth

That's all just assuming current rotations, which I don't think will be the case. Since serpent sting, arcane shot, multi shot, and aimed shot are all better than steady, they will probably be a part of our rotations by default, so taking talents to maximize them makes more sense. Barring mana issues, I can see steady shot being something like a shadow priest's mind flay - simply the filler when everything else is on cooldown. Set to 4 minutes, using arcane shot and aimed shot was several dps greater than steady spamming.
MM build with 3/3 barrage and 3/3 imp arcane shot: ~4695
BM build with aimed shot talent (and arcane/aimed in rotation): ~4954
Survival: about the same because, unless I am mistaken, arcane is still tied with explosive

So for me, adjusting to better rotations and talent builds to minimize steady's role and maximize other specials, the nerf (and again, this is just including the three talents I mentioned at the start + readiness change) comes out more like this:
BM Nerf: ~8%
MM Nerf: ~6% (but BM was still overall ahead by about 250 dps)
SV Nerf: ~9%

It is quite alarming to me to think of our weakest spec getting hit the HARDEST by these changes, but that is how it appears to me currently. I don't understand why they wouldn't unlink explosive from arcane and up the damage of explosive.

The next issue is that of SV rotations. Since when is a hunter supposed to be position him//herself 8 yds from a boss? This is what we are being forced to get LnL to proc enough to get ES damage up. Absurd.

You all know Blizz scans these forums for feedback so for the love of cookies participate in the nerf discussions from the SV raiding standpoint.

Nerf BM Pet Talents, Buff Explosive Shot. Simple Eh?

Neruse · 12/12/08, 5:49 AM

In v80 of the spreadsheet, if one substitutes aimed for steadyshot, survival actually closes the gap somewhat between it and the highest spec (BM and marks are essentially tied). The difference pre-nerf between top BM and top SV specs was about 900 dps, or 14%. Now, the difference is roughly 600 dps, or 10%. I suspect if ExS is buffed to 12%, or arcane is unlinked from ExS and ExS buffed to 10%, survival would pull up right next to marks and BM.

JaclynRA · 12/12/08, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Tiberium

I really find myself disappointed at the complete and total lack of response to the upcoming "Hunter" nerfs right here in the SV thread. Actually there is 1 post. We should all be screaming from the rooftops that the SS nerf is ludicrous when considering SV raiding.

Perhaps the lack of SV takeup is perfect confirmation that SV hunters are next to useless for raiding. No doubt due to the "Beta" nerfs to explosive shot. In fact if anyone could confirm the current take up of SV it would be greatly apreciated as a butress to the fact that the proposed Hunter "Steady Shot" nerf is just plain wrong. BM pets are doing 60% of BM hunter damage???? Surely the needed nerf is as plain as your nose, nerf BM Pet talents. Not the mainstay of the survival build.

So we are already the poor relation of the 3 specs and what does Blizz propose to do? Well, Nerf SV and Nerf us hard. Here is a copy of the proposed changes once plugged into the spreadsheet.

Read it and weep.

The next issue is that of SV rotations. Since when is a hunter supposed to be position him//herself 8 yds from a boss? This is what we are being forced to get LnL to proc enough to get ES damage up. Absurd.

You all know Blizz scans these forums for feedback so for the love of cookies participate in the nerf discussions from the SV raiding standpoint.

Nerf BM Pet Talents, Buff Explosive Shot. Simple Eh?

Honestly being SV you should already know that you are not a damage dealer, you are a "utility" spec. Might not be as much of a utility that you would like but that's what the spec is. I went from BM (my fav) to SV back in SW for the guild. It's kinda fun so after leveling to 80 I went back. I manage to stay in the top 10 and some fights even make it to top 3. In no way should people panic so much on beta tested things. It's beta... not live. There are other things that they are thinking about and things always change. Just my 2c

On a side note. Has anyone seen a blue on the new wording of Imp Track? Is it simply a new wording or if you have one of the listed tracks going you get the damage mod for all? Looks to me it's just reworded and works like it always has. Just heard some rumors that it worked for all.

Kanandi · 12/12/08, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by JaclynRA

Honestly being SV you should already know that you are not a damage dealer, you are a "utility" spec.
On a side note. Has anyone seen a blue on the new wording of Imp Track? Is it simply a new wording or if you have one of the listed tracks going you get the damage mod for all? Looks to me it's just reworded and works like it always has. Just heard some rumors that it worked for all.

Agreed, SV is not meant for pure to-the-wall DPS damage. Hunters are still up there as a Class among the top DPS, which is what prompted the changes.

Regarding hte Tracking, I'll have to browse for the actual post, but essentially, if you are tracking one type of creature such as beasts, Humanoids, Dragons, Elementals, etc, (as opposed to tracking Herbs, Fish, or Ore) then the tracking bonus applies to other trackable types of mob. If you are tracking beasts, but stumble across an elemental, you can continue to be "Tracking something" and gain the benefit of the talent without continually switching tracking-types.
So I suppose you could say something like "Improved Tracking - adds damage against trackable enemies, if you are tracking anything but gathering nodes".

JaclynRA · 12/12/08, 10:51 AM

Well that's what I hope they are doing. I just noticed that how GC described it in the forum post is (of course) different than what the ptr patch notes state.

Improved Tracking(Survival): This talent has been slightly re-designed. Now reads: While tracking Beasts, Demons, Dragonkin, Elementals, Giants, Humanoids and Undead, all ranged damage done to those types is increased by 1/2/3/4/5%.

Nandei · 12/12/08, 11:17 AM

Hunters are pure dps class, no matter what the spec. With EW gone, I don't see SV being any more utility than the other two trees. We got replenishment but as that is the only thing and shared with 2 other classes, it does not in my opinion mean that SV should do less dps. I do not think that Blizzard will ever manage to balance the trees really, but using the excuse of "utility-spec" to explain one being a lot worse is not valid any more.

JaclynRA · 12/12/08, 11:21 AM

There is no such thing as a true balance. Trying to make every spec equal and do the same DPS is idiotic. Why make specs or classes at all if everyone is the same? You will always have a spec difference. You will always have one on top... one in the middle, and one last. It's how you use it to your advantage that makes it special. Simply put you want damage play BM.

Nandei · 12/12/08, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by JaclynRA

There is no such thing as a true balance. Trying to make every spec equal and do the same DPS is idiotic. Why make specs or classes at all if everyone is the same? You will always have a spec difference. You will always have one on top... one in the middle, and one last. It's how you use it to your advantage that makes it special. Simply put you want damage play BM.

You are missing my point. Like I said I do not believe they will ever get the balancing right. But to use "utility-spec" excuse to just wave one spec's problems away is just lame.

JaclynRA · 12/12/08, 11:25 AM

I don't believe my spec(tree) has a problem so calling for balance IMO is lame. Just my thoughts, like I stated but you are free to argue all you like.

bomzix · 12/12/08, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by JaclynRA

...Honestly being SV you should already know that you are not a damage dealer, you are a "utility" spec. Might not be as much of a utility that you would like but that's what the spec is. I went from BM (my fav) to SV back in SW for the guild. It's kinda fun so after leveling to 80 I went back. I manage to stay in the top 10 and some fights even make it to top 3. In no way should people panic so much on beta tested things. It's beta... not live. There are other things that they are thinking about and things always change. Just my 2c...

I agree that a utility specc for a pure DPS class should be behind in personal ( player + pet ) DPS of the 100% DPS specc. Problem is there are no 100% Pure DPS specs anymore. Everyone brings something to the table, even the previously selfish Combat/Assassination Rogues, the Frost Mages... everyone has something.

Survival has Replenishment. Period. It's the worst of the best raid buffs there is but it's the only one. SV DPS needs to be closer to the max-DPS builds and farther away from the hydrid DPS builds.

That beeing said... Why is everyone so shocked that a hunter's pet makes most of his DPS? I find it cool that a BM's pet is the better part of himself

Nandei · 12/12/08, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by JaclynRA

I don't believe my spec(tree) has a problem so calling for balance IMO is lame. Just my thoughts, like I stated but you are free to argue all you like.

Well I do not think we have a problem either. At the moment. Yet if the nerfs indeed hit us the hardest, then that might prove a totally different thing. I for one do not wish to end up last in dps, below all the hybrids too (worst case scenario, obviously). I am hoping for the best, expecting the worst.

At the moment I am doing ok in dps, I am not the highest, losing to a rogue, FFB mage and shaman (who is getting a nerf). So no need to go BM for me at the moment, enjoying Survival rotation and the randomness of the occasional Lock and Load procs a lot.

Edit: I am not asking for balancing, I know its not possible. The reason that SV is a bit behind is not it being an utility spec, but simply that Blizzard can't balance the trees. As simple as that.