I have a question regarding Wyvern Sting, in a raid boss situation, if you use WS, it obviously won't stick, but will the dot affect work?

The scrolling damage will only say "immune". Nothing will have happened and you will have wasted your mana and a global.

Any explosive shot numbers yet? Really curious, as I'm frequently in ten mans lately without Invigoration..

I'm pretty sure the change hasn't gone up on the PTRs yet, or at the very least the tooltip hasn't changed.

It used to be that when you put WS on a sleep immune mob, the DoT portion would still take place. This was part of the change waaaay back in 1.9 (I think) where they separated the damage portion of an ability with the CC part. Things like scatter shot could then be used on a boss to do some damage.

I submitted a bug report, since the DoT should still hit the boss even if he's immune to the sleep portion. /shrug Especially considering the damage it does (~3100 talented with imp stings)... it's a decent use of a GCD and well worth the loss of serpent sting damage/noxious sting bonus for 6 seconds.

Obviously, any sort of serious number-crunching is going to have to wait until they give us real values for New Explosive Shot. With what we know so far, though, ES will have significant base dps and better scaling over its duration than post-nerf Steady. Unfortunately, the rest of the future for SV is bleak. Trapdancing, as noted upthread, seems to be the best approach, but comes with a laundry list of tactical difficulties.

The spec to look at seems to be this 0/18/53 build. After the hit cap, Focused Aim can be dropped, probably for Improved Stings. Rapid Killing, 2/2 GFTT, 3/3 Expose Weakness, and 3/5 Hunting Party are also conceivable places for those points. None of the options are particularly striking. It is too early to be able to determine their optimal use.

The ideal "rotation" for this build is based around the 24 second trap cycle: Immo Trap, ES, shot*, ES, shot, ES, shot, shot, shot, ES, shot, shot, shot, ES, shot, shot, <repeating>. In this cycle, "shot" typically represents Steady, but roughly every 10 seconds substitutes an Aimed, and roughly ever 18 substitutes a Serpent. These substitutions do not have fixed positions in the rotation (although they serve a purpose beyond just dps, as described below). Additionally, Serpent ticks can provoke LNL procs outside of the trap rotation and will need to be handled as it is currently.

The greatest challenge of this pattern, clearly, is trap-drop management. Trapping on most mobs will require movement in and movement out. By bookending trap drops with the floating instant shots in the rotation, no Steadies will be lost to movement. This is not the ideal timing of Aimed shots, and in fact, may lose a potential aimed substitution roughly every third trap cycle, but the loss in dps is less than dropping a Steady from the pattern. Missing a trap is very bad; dealing with the difficulties of actually getting gigantic hit-box mobs to trigger the trap under their feet is, sadly, left as an exercise to the reader.

Ideally executed, napkin math with conservative values for ES suggests that this build and strategy might be competitive post-patch with MM/BM. That said, despite being a long-time SV player, I don't think I'll be sticking with the tree for three reasons: the clunky mechanics of trapping, the inherent danger of melee- and near-melee-range on raid mobs, and the effective change of the character from a "ranged dps" to a "melee dps" role (with impacts on raid slot utility). Simply put, SV cannot be a serious contender for raid slots if its sole competitive dps mechanic is based on LNL optimization of ES. The rest of the tree needs more meat before it will be worth sitting down to the table.

Unrelated aside regarding Wyvern Sting as a damage source. I respectfully disagree that the WS dot would be viable if it was changed to be available as a "dumbfire" sting against immune mobs. Because WS does not stack with Serpent, this would only substitute the slightly higher dps dot for those 6 seconds. Additionally, the hunter would not only lose the 3% bonus of Noxious Sting, but the 10% bonus to Steady Shot via glyph, and would have to reapply Serpent after the WS duration; with stings as the largest mana burden for current SV, more frequent stings that required are not optimal.

Is the dmg from traps that high that ppl prefer beeing up close and personal to Sniper training? Both are highly situational...

Has anyone done the (some) math on this?

First: All of this assumes the 0.1 rAP scaling nerf to Steady in 3.0.8. Right now, you'd have to be crazy to trapdance, in my opinion. Even still, this isn't about the traps themselves, but about the LNL procs that trap-dropping generates. Sniper is +6% damage to Steady and ES (and Aimed, once it becomes viablepost 3.0.8). Trapdancing allows a guaranteed LNL proc every 24 seconds, which replaces 2 Steadies with ES.

Steady Shot, after 3.0.8, is weapon damage plus ammo, plus 252, plus 0.1 * rAP.
We don't have firm numbers for 3.0.8 ES. We know that they are raising the base damage to 520 and "increasing" the scalar. Currently, it is 0.08 and we'll use that number for now. That means that ES deals three hits of 520 + 0.08 * rAP.

Let's look at a well-geared hunter, wielding [Envoy of Mortality], firing [Mammoth Cutters], and with 6k buffed rAP. We'll assume an average crit chance of 40% (which should account for both MT and the crit dropoff being recorded against bosses); this gives ES a 49% crit chance via TNT. Both attacks gain the benefits of Noxious Stings and Improved Tracking (periodic damage restriction being removed in 3.0.8). Steady also gains 10% damage from the glyph. A Relentless meta gem and Mortal Shots are assumed. Our target mob will be assumed 40% physical mitigation from armor. I should probably include supporting buffs for ES, like CoE, but this is napkinny, so I won't.

SS: [(448.92 + 195.72 + 252 + [0.1 * 6000]) * 1.18 * 0.6 + (448.92 + 195.72 + 252 + [0.1 * 6000]) * 1.18 * 2.33 * 0.4] * 0.6
SS = 1580.98
ES: [(520 + [0.08 * 6000]) * 1.08 * 0.51 + (520 + [0.08 * 6000]) * 1.08 * 2.33 * 0.49] * 3
ES = 5351.40

We'll ignore that the trap itself is better damage than Steady. That gain is largely consumed by the loss of autoshots in adjustment. The two substitutions per 24s trap cycle gain (5351.4 - 1580.98) * 2 = 7540.84 damage per cycle, or 314.20 dps.

For Sniper Training, the modifiers to those two shots (and Aimed, but outside the scope of this napkin math) are slightly adjusted:

SS: [(448.92 + 195.72 + 252 + [0.1 * 6000]) * 1.24 * 0.6 + (448.92 + 195.72 + 252 + [0.1 * 6000]) * 1.24 * 2.33 * 0.4] * 0.6
SS = 1705.88
ES = [(520 + [0.08 * 6000]) * 1.14 * 0.51 + (520 + [0.08 * 6000]) * 1.14 * 2.33 * 0.49] * 3
ES = 5648.82

ST does not replace shots. It maintains, more or less, the existing ES + 4x SS rotation. The gain of ST is therefore the difference between that rotation with and without the ST modifier, or (5648.82 + [4 * 1705.88]) - (5351.4 + [4 * 1580.98]) = 797.02. This extra damage is gained per 6-second rotation cycle, for a gain of 132.84. Trapdancing is ~181.36 dps better than ST given the numbers above. If the coefficient on ES is raised, the benefit of trapdancing > ST widens. Also, trapdancing scales better with rAP than ST.

With all that said and done, I think both trapdancing and ST are ugly kludges for a tree that lacks sufficient synergy and focus in its dps talents. Both are awkward, situational, and threaten catastrophic dps penalties upon failure. But for those trying to squeeze blood from a stone, they're all we have to work with.

Wyvern Sting does not scale with RAP and is stuck at 2460 dmg over 6 seconds, however, serpent sting would need to do 6150 dmg before it would be greater DPS than Wyvern sting which is reached at 24,700 RAP.

Well, WS does about 3100 over 6 sec. You'd want to time it so that you'd put it down at the end of a serpent sting run, and then reapply serpent sting at the end of the ticks while *also* minimizing the number of steadies you fire during that window, but it does twice the damage of Serpent sting, and could conceivably increase your DPS during that 6 sec window.

Whether it's worth burning the mana on for a little more DPS over 6 sec every min.../shrug. Depends on if you want to do an additional 25 DPS or so.

And no, it doesn't scale with AP. But even if you're running at 7k AP, serpent sting will only tick for 680 or so. WS will tick for about 400 more a tick. Unless gear starts scaling even more, that is a lot of damage to make up at 3% DPS increase and 10% on 3 steady shots (max).

For simplicity, I'll use the same gear/mob assumptions for this as for the trapdancing math above. However, this is a "right-now" question, so I'll use the live ES damage and scaling for SS.

With Noxious / Steady glyph active:
SS: [(448.92 + 195.72 + 252 + [0.2 * 6000]) * 1.18 * 0.6 + (448.92 + 195.72 + 252 + [0.2 * 6000]) * 1.18 * 2.33 * 0.4] * 0.6
SS = 2274.13
ES: [(260+ [0.08 * 6000]) * 1.08 * 0.51 + (260 + [0.08 * 6000]) * 1.08 * 2.33 * 0.49] * 3
ES = 3960.12

Without Noxious / Steady glyph:
SS: [(448.92 + 195.72 + 252 + [0.2 * 6000]) * 1.05 * 0.6 + (448.92 + 195.72 + 252 + [0.2 * 6000]) * 1.05 * 2.33 * 0.4] * 0.6
SS = 2023.59
ES: [(260+ [0.08 * 6000]) * 1.05 * 0.51 + (260 + [0.08 * 6000]) * 1.05 * 2.33 * 0.49] * 3
ES = 3850.11

Those 6 seconds will, optimally, be an ES and 3x Steady. The loss in dps from the serpent support effects is thus:

[3960.12 + (3 * 2274.12)] - [3850.11 + (3 * 2023.59)] = 861.6 damage.

You also lose 6 seconds of Serpent damage itself, which is (1210 + [0.2 * 6000]) * 1.03 * (2 / 5) = 992.92 damage. In return, you gain 2460 damage from Wyvern Sting. This is netting you (2460 - [861.6 + 992.92]) = 605.48 damage every minute (for +10 dps) ... except that the 2nd sting application needed to resume Serpent displaces a Steady shot from the rotation. Over an arbitrarily long fight, that essentially costs you 1 steady per minute, and is a net loss of dps.

Wyvern cycling becomes better after the 3.0.8 nerf, and is better if you have Improved Stings, but in either case is little better then break-even ... assuming, of course, that they ever change the dot to stick to cc-immune mobs, since currently, WS does nothing at all on bosses.

Quick question for any surv hunters on the PTR atm: Does anyone know the new coefficients for Explosive shot? All I can find is the new base damage that GC released.

In an attempt to preserve both sting lethality and hit rating, I've constructed a 0/19/52 monstrosity.

• WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator

I considered this build more for bosses such as Patchwerk, where trapping can get you killed, and Sniper Training can be utilized perhaps better than other places. Sacrificing Improved Aspect of the Hawk, I've take apart a few of the other talent points to add to both Focused Aim and Improved Stings.

Just looking at this build, I'm wondering if I haven't shot myself in the foot.
Any constructive comments would be helpful, as I'm trying my best to preserve hit rating in the long run.

*Edit* After using this build, I've seen a DPS increase of 300+ on my character as opposed to my previous BM spec.

no points in GftT is a bad idea, your pet will be focus starved, other that that your buld looks fine to me, although the situationality of ST has been discussed here enough.

Thx for the reply Kitai. I guess it's back to quasi-melee range and shotting bosses in the head However if this really becomes the way to go we can expect a LnL "ajustment" as I'm pretty sure Sniper Training is more in line with what blizzard wants for PvE and LnL aimed at PvP.

Sanremuile, I'd lose the Improved stings for GftT and Aimed Shot, aimed may not be part of our rotationa and may never be but running around will always be a part of a lot of fights and having 1 more instant shot is always a big help for 1Talent point.

I considered both Aimed Shot and GftT, but in the end I hypothesized that by increasing the DPS payload of my stings, the effects would be something akin to adding a rolling "phantom shot" to my rotation. I wasn't sure of the exact mathematical equation, so I was I was essentially guessing that by focusing on my stings, the damage would equate to having added another shot without actually having to shoot (beyond applying stings).

It's a bit of a confusing explanation, but to simplify it a little if I've confused anyone, I've attempted to stick a heavier amount of damage behind my stings so that I can have some solid damage rolling even in times when I can't necessarily fire off a shot on my own; for example, when fighting Thaddius, there is the matter of running past the boss without tying up raid members of the opposing charge, often passing through melee range. With a strong DoT up, I can go relatively "Hands Free" while making the transition, and then return to focusing on my shot rotation again.

Another issue I have with Aimed Shot in particular, is that it seems to still carry a fairly expensive mana charge for a shot which does relatively small amounts of damage. I might be mistaken here, as I haven't used it since Wrath opened, so if anyone could correct me on the matter, I wouldn't be offended.

To be honest, I didn't actually know how to submit my own WWS until recently, although after tonight's raid I'll definitely bring back some numbers to see how the build is holding up. The BM spec I was using previously was something of a modification all in itself as well.

• WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator

The differences in DPS might very well be a skill-based issue, as SV has always been my main spec, and I was admittedly uncomfortable playing as a Beastmaster Hunter. The numbers I produced were high (3000+), but the BM hunters in my guild were usually solidly holding the top three positions in DPS ahead of me. At this point, my "Phantom Shot" build is not raid tested, and the 300DPS increase I saw was administered to a training Dummy (the largest).

*Edit* I've pulled up a raid from last week where I used the aforementioned BM spec.

• Wow Web Stats

Looking at your longest Patchwerk attempt, there are some clear issues. You fired 10 arcane shots (not currently optimal for BM) and 9 multi-shots (disfavored on single target). Your Serpent Sting had poor uptime (note your 32 Serpent ticks compared to Sanasala's 43). I'm not exactly sure what type of pet you were using (wolf?), but it isn't one of the high dps nonexotics (scorpion, cat, or even wasp).

SV is completely capable of putting out 3k parses. I put out 2800-3000 on favorable bosses in my 10 man raids, which are missing a host of critical hunter support buffs: no sunder, no +10% AP, no +5% crit, and only one paladin. Feel free to examine my Armory; I am by no means at maximum gear (and some of my talent decisions will be deemed dubious, I expect). I see no reason why an SV hunter in closer to maximal available equipment, on a 25 man raid with full buff support, couldn't parse ~4k on appropriate parse-test encounters.

But lots of people can parse 4k. It isn't special. The problem is that we are comparing to other specs and classes that can do 4500, 5k, 6k or more. The boom is being lowered on the highest of the dps hunters, but SV is caught in the crossfire, and I am somewhat doubtful that a point-target buff to ES will do more than tread water absent degenerate strategies. Trapdancing appears to be a great dps strategy on paper, but might be the canonical example of why papercrafting can only go so far in modeling real-world encounters.

Really it only has to do (6150 - <AVG Steady Shot>) because you're losing 1 GCD by applying it. Though not really 1 GCD I suppose if you're doing during movement and as Serpent is running out anyway.

Also I respecced from MM to BM just to screw around a bit before the nerf bat hits (I get that I wasn't being totally optimal for my guild as MM, but I honestly and truly hate the BM playstyle).

Scorpid, 50/21 spec.

I don't have my data from Patchwerk, but Razuvious this week had me at 4975dps or so (missed the 5k mark due to being nervous about our Priests' ability to hold aggro with the adds properly and FDing a couple times, also wasn't flasked so was missing ~198ap).

If I had another week with this 50/21 spec I'm sure I could get it up to 5100 or 5200 on Patchwerk with my current gear.

Also do we still have NO information about Explosive Shot's increased scaling?

So then your advice, Serpent, is that I should stick solely to alternating between SS and ES for shots in a boss fight, and then alternate between Wyvern Sting and Serpent Sting as the effects of each wear off? It hadn't occurred to me that firing Arcane/Multi-Shots between Steady Shots could possibly damage my overall DPS (although could very well open up a lot of mana if true).

At the moment, no.

The short version: For SV right now, your optimal order of operations is to maintain Serpent Sting, fire Explosive Shot any time that it is up (except following LNL procs, where you must weave it with Steadies / Serpent refreshes to avoid overwriting your own ES ticks), and filling the remainder of your GCDs with Steadies. In contrast, the BM rotation is just Serpent / Steady spam. Neither, right now, wants anything to do with Arcane or Aimed/Multi, because they are at best a very small gain in dps in exchange for a nontrivial loss of mana efficiency. I do not think that the math in any way supports use of Wyvern Sting as part of a dps rotation, although it seems to have some following in this capacity from comments upthread (keep in mind, also, that if the mob is immune to its cc component, it will not receive the dot).

Of course, managing -- or forcing -- LNL procs is rarely as simple as my quicky explanation makes it sound. Refreshing Serpent Sting at moments of locally maximized attack power can be an improvement to net dps, but on-the-fly is generally more art than science. Viper management is a topic all to itself.

And it's all going to change at 3.0.8. BM is likely to move to a Serpent/Arcane/Steady rotation. MM has a pretty crazy 20-second-long repeating pattern as the papercraft ideal. And SV may wind up doing some very dumb things in an effort to be competitive.