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Old 01/23/09, 6:00 PM   #901
Dralmoo
Don Flamenco
 
Orc Hunter
 
Shadowmoon
[Glyph of Multi-Shot]

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Old 01/23/09, 8:01 PM   #902
GeraldVilloria
Glass Joe
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Destromath
I'm looking for some analysis on options for Survival specced Hunter pets. Original post points us to Raptor, Cat, and some pets I haven't tinkered with, Wasp and Moth. Spreadsheet seems to like the Moth for me, but how useful is the Wasp's debuff in a raid environment/heroics?

Anyone done extensive testing on either the Wasp or the Moth and can relay their experiences?

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Old 01/23/09, 8:18 PM   #903
Reps
 
 
Originally Posted by GeraldVilloria View Post
I'm looking for some analysis on options for Survival specced Hunter pets. Original post points us to Raptor, Cat, and some pets I haven't tinkered with, Wasp and Moth. Spreadsheet seems to like the Moth for me, but how useful is the Wasp's debuff in a raid environment/heroics?

Anyone done extensive testing on either the Wasp or the Moth and can relay their experiences?
Although I haven't run with a wasp myself, it doesn't seem like an incredible advantage if a target cannot steal or turn invisible. How often during a raid does your target stealth? This seems more like a pvp ability.

Old 01/23/09, 8:31 PM   #904
GeraldVilloria
Glass Joe
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Destromath
Originally Posted by Reps View Post
Although I haven't run with a wasp myself, it doesn't seem like an incredible advantage if a target cannot steal or turn invisible. How often during a raid does your target stealth? This seems more like a pvp ability.
The stealth removal is just the icing on the cake. The real benefit to running a wasp is an armor reduction debuff. I don't know if it stacks with sunders, or if it's viable to bring to a raid situation. Looking for some first-hand experience with them.

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Old 01/23/09, 8:34 PM   #905
Tsook
chiefly comprised of water
 
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Tsook
Troll Hunter
 
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Wasp sting is a minor armor debuff and stacks with sunder, but not faerie fire, curse of recklessness, or sporebat's spore cloud.

EDIT: punctuation
EDIT2: spore bat != moth

Last edited by Tsook : 01/23/09 at 8:57 PM.

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Old 01/23/09, 8:34 PM   #906
Ryas
Piston Honda
 
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Troll Hunter
 
Moon Guard
Originally Posted by GeraldVilloria View Post
The stealth removal is just the icing on the cake. The real benefit to running a wasp is an armor reduction debuff. I don't know if it stacks with sunders, or if it's viable to bring to a raid situation. Looking for some first-hand experience with them.
I'm pretty sure it stacks with Sunder (though don't quote me on this). It doesn't however stack with Faerie Fire.


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Old 01/23/09, 8:39 PM   #907
Reps
 
 
Originally Posted by Tsook View Post
Wasp sting is a minor armor debuff and stacks with sunder, but not faerie fire, curse of recklessness, or moth's spore cloud.

EDIT: punctuation
If I'm not mistaken, the moth's spore cloud increases AP by 10%. How would/wouldn't that stack with the wasp's armor debuff? Apples to oranges?

Last edited by Reps : 01/23/09 at 8:41 PM. Reason: clarified meaning

Old 01/23/09, 8:41 PM   #908
GeraldVilloria
Glass Joe
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Destromath
Originally Posted by Reps View Post
If I'm not mistaken, the moth's spore cloud increases AP by 10%. How would/wouldn't that stack with the wasp's armor debuff? Apples and oranges?
I think he was referring to the spore cloud used by Spore Bats, not moths. Spore Bats have a similar armor debuff, but they're Cunning pets and not worthy of serious consideration.

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Old 01/23/09, 9:12 PM   #909
Tsook
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Tsook
Troll Hunter
 
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Yes. For clarity:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking
Armor Debuff (Major): Acid Spit (exotic Hunter pet), Expose Armor, Sunder Armor
Armor Debuff (Minor): Faerie Fire, Sting (Hunter pet), Curse of Recklessness
Spore cloud wasn't mentioned there, but if you search this forum you can find references to people testing it. Here is where Shandara updated the spreadsheet after tests confirmed it:
WotLK DPS spreadsheet

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Old 01/24/09, 12:00 AM   #910
dsl1
Glass Joe
 
Undead Hunter
 
Gul'dan
I have half the math done regarding a trap dancing compared to a sniper training patchwerk kill. IE, standing next to boss and dropping traps or standing at +30yards. It really isn't clear which is better so I will try and shed some light tomorrow. My engineering problem solving class moves so slowly that it has been my hunter problem solving class but besides that I haven't had much time to do anything.

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Old 01/24/09, 2:44 AM   #911
Windslicer
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Hunter
 
Kilrogg
There is still a great deal of talk about this trap dancing idea which, I think, Blizzard has specifically tried to rule out as a reasonable concept. This is illustrated by putting a 30 second cooldown on LnL and upping the proc rate off Serpent Sting, and WWS reports showing max LnL procs over the course of the fight (1 per 30 seconds). It is not a guarantee, of course, but I think Blizzard has (and may continue) to make every effort to prevent trapdancing from being viable. It goes strictly against what they have said is their idea for the survival spec, and hunters in general.

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Old 01/24/09, 3:02 AM   #912
dssurge
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Korgath
I was messing around with LnL on a target dummy, just to see how reliable Serpent was at proccing it, and it really didn't seem nearly as bad as everyone is suggesting. Would it be nicer if it were higher to simply force procs? Of course.

I'm pretty sure in a situation you can use Sniper Training, it will almost be invariably better to just proc it with Serpent. There are going to be a lot of fights that you can using trap dancing in a reliable fashion because of the nature of the fight, but on any Patchwerk-esq encounter, I really can't see a 6% increase on all of your special shots (assuming Aimed > Multi) being lower, or lower enough to merit trap dancing.

Just napkin math, but if every explosive shot does 6000 damage, and you fire 10 per minute minimum, you're looking at basically 1 LnL proc vs. 2 per minute. It is unlikely (but possible) your sting will not proc a LnL.

60,000 + 12,000 = 72000 with trap dancing
60,000 + 6000 + 3960 = 69960 with sniper training

Within almost 2000 before factoring 6% damage into either Aimed or Steady shot. I would say streaky crits would affect the damage difference more than trap dancing...

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Old 01/24/09, 3:36 AM   #913
Blork
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Wildhammer (EU)
Expose Weakness

Like many other I am quite new to the SV spec but after doing my first N25 run last night and looking at the wws's I was surprised at how very seldom Expose Weakness had gone off.

Now this was no real surprise to me, I had done my homework (at least I thought I had...) and looked at other peoples logs before I decided on my final spec. The spreadsheet suggest 2/3 EW is quite sufficient but since I noticed people seemed to not have it all the time I decided to go 3/3.

Here are two examples from the raid tonight:

Loatheb - 6 min - 3 EW
Patchwerk - 5 min - 1 EW

Can this really be right or is it that EW is not registering in the log/parse, if it's already up and gets refreshed so in fact 1 EW on patchwerk meant it was up 100% of the time (I hope this is the case)?

Last edited by Blork : 01/24/09 at 3:58 AM.

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Old 01/24/09, 3:53 AM   #914
FordprefectTB
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Madoran
Frost Trap

I have yet to see anything else about this, but frost trap does NOT appear to proc the internal 30-second CD on LnL. Using the in-game stopwatch, a friend and I have tested and procced a second LnL within that 30 seconds. Obviously, this will require some more extensive testing, but it appears that using frost trap over immolation may net an increase in dps.

If this turns out to be the case, then changing the spec from trap mastery and putting that point into resourcefulness or some other dps talent may lead to a further increase.

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Old 01/24/09, 4:02 AM   #915
Nandei
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by Blork View Post
Can this really be right or is it that EW is not registering if it's already up and gets refreshed so in fact 1 EW on patchwerk meant it was up 100% of the time ( I hope this is the case)?
WWS only registers gains, not refreshes. If you see just one Expose Weakness gain, it means that a) you had it the whole time or b) you lost it at some point, but it did not proc again for the rest of the fight. With the high crit rates of Survival hunters especially raid buffed, the first one is more likely. Or if the second one happens, the length of the remainder of the fight is so short that it doesn't matter anyway.

I looked over my previous Naxx25 WWS (pre-patch) and in many fights I too have very few, or just one EW in the report. For example: Loatheb. Just one EW gain there, but if you search the log file for "Expose Weakness", there is one gain and a lot of refreshes, the last of these just a second before Loatheb dies.

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