I expect that with the changes to survival, we'll see more people speccing more than 51 points into the tree, which is going to make focused fire unreachable, in which case aimed becomes a lot more attractive since the extra points in imp hawk are less compelling without it, although I suppose maybe people will want more points in imp hawk than they have now if they don't have room for it with the new glyphs.
I haven't done the math on the new LnL, but I'm just not seeing manually running in and dropping an immolation trap to be a very good idea with the changes. You'll basically be giving up the benefit of sniper training for 6 seconds plus whatever time it takes to do the movement to drop the trap. Then you won't have any control over the LnL proc. I think immolation trap ticks every 3 seconds which would mean you have what a 50% chance of an LnL proc sometime in the next 15 seconds if you dropped one? If the 30 second cooldown on LnL is still there and you already have black arrow up, you already have a chance to proc it from that (I don't know what the black arrow tick rate is). So basically you're talking about investing 3 talent points to gain a small damage boost to immolation trap which you won't be using in the first place unless somehow the trap dancing and chance mechanics involved outweigh the negatives. Anyone who sucks less than me at napkin math want to work out some rough idea on the damage tradeoffs?
Just a note on hawk eye btw, I wouldn't go way out of my way to get it, but there are definitely occasions where it has improved my damage slightly by allowing me to start attacking again faster in situations where I got out of range. Sapphiron is a good example- sometimes you have to hide behind the ice blocks pretty far in the back- the sooner you can get back into shooting range the more damage you'll do. It's situational, but it's not completely without its damage benefits.
Good points, a lot will be determined when things actually go live and we see what was kept and what gets changed. However at it's current state Immolation Trap could be Trap Launched (new ability) every minute, however sharing a CD with Black Arrow would definetely change things. I didn't see any notes about them sharing a CD however, is this coming from people who are on PTR at the moment? I'm at work so cna't hop on until tonight. However, if that is the case I wonder if it is intentional. It seems that Blizz wants us to use traps, they have stated the Survival Tree is trap-centric and introducing a Trap Launcher seems to back that up. Black Arrow sharing a CD would seem to nullify using traps in many cases.
However, the amount of extra damage from Hawk Eye is extremely situational and miniscule at best, so I guess it comes down to how they treat traps/black arrow CDs. But I would gather that only one or the either is chosen, not like a couple of the posted builds I have seen so far where both talents had 3/3 in.
It seems that Blizz wants us to use traps, they have stated the Survival Tree is trap-centric and introducing a Trap Launcher seems to back that up. Black Arrow sharing a CD would seem to nullify using traps in many cases.
I think that's the point. With LnL proccing off BA, and BA itself doing far more damage than even a talented Immolation Trap, assuming Blizzard gets the per-tick proc rate right, traps are completely off the menu for SV PvE. The only downside for me is that making BA and traps share a cooldown feels like nothing less than an ugly hack, even when I know why they did it
I think I see why you're so confused Perzyx. You're basing your spec on the info that was on MMO Champion last night. They changed that information and currently the trap launching is not in, nor is the immolation trap refresh on TnT. So right now, immolation trap is a substandard option for keeping LnL procs flowing. That may change but it's the current state of what we're being given.
Considering the Black Arrow information, i guess that we will have an uptime of 15sec with a 30sec CD ?
I also guess that the new rotation will be something like Explosive > Multi > Black Arrow > Serpent Sting ( and probably some little numbers of steady when everything is on CD, and also the dots are up )
Edit :
I forgot to ask about the new Sniper Training, where as it says something about 15 seconds ? ... Does it mean that after we stand 6 seconds on the spot, we get a buff for 15 sec .. and ? ( i will appreciate any help on this , thanks xD )
If things go forward similar to what is laid out now, not much will change other than the death of trap dancing for the most part and the addition of yet another cooldown to monitor for everyone.
Well, it could have been worse I guess. As long as DPS doesn't fall behind our top mages even farther I guess I can live with it.
...I forgot to ask about the new Sniper Training, where as it says something about 15 seconds ? ... Does it mean that after we stand 6 seconds on the spot, we get a buff for 15 sec .. and ? ( i will appreciate any help on this , thanks xD )
I saw that 'Lasts 15 seconds' on MMO Champion's talent page (can't get my 80 hunter copied over at the moment) and was also curious. Does the buff refresh constantly so that when you move you'll have the buff for the full 15 seconds, or does it have a cooldown. Hopefully the prior, but I'm not holding my breath. Going the second route and using a cooldown would be...unpleasant...to try and manage.
Now I just need to retrain myself to not run and hide in the far back of every fight.
Well since Black Arrow is going to be on a shared CD with traps GC Said. Its safe to take those 3 points out of trap mastery and put them back into Hawk Eye?http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...4&version=9614 or is it more viable to keep the 3 in trap mastery so can get more DPS from IMO traps on trash. Hmm Discuss.
Black Arrow DPS + Side Effect on Explosive = 48,03 + 29,32 - 77,35
EDIT:
According to my last WWS report on Patchwerk ES makes 37% total damage.
Explosive Shot: 37% = BA 29,32
Auto Shot: 22% = BA 17,43
Steady Shot: 13% = BA 10,3
Multishot: 4% = BA 3,169
Total Black Arrow additional DPS: 60,29
BA DPS + Additional DPS = 60,29 + 48,03 = 108,249
108,249 > 105,6 (Immo Trap)
The additional BA DPS should increases a lot, because i don't calculated with special talents and the right crit rate.
_____________________________
As you can see, the calculations are really simple (without Noxious Stings, Tracking or Sniper Training) but nevertheless, i would say that the side effect of Black Arrow - 6% more Damage over 15 seconds - is more viable as the skilled damage of immolation trap, especially because you'll lose the Sniper Training (Buff?) and have a lot of movement.
So far, to set a Immolation Trap instead of fire a Black Arrow seems to be really uneffective.
Correct me if i calculated something wrong [i've edited 80000 times ]
Good points, a lot will be determined when things actually go live and we see what was kept and what gets changed. However at it's current state Immolation Trap could be Trap Launched (new ability) every minute, however sharing a CD with Black Arrow would definetely change things. I didn't see any notes about them sharing a CD however, is this coming from people who are on PTR at the moment? I'm at work so cna't hop on until tonight. However, if that is the case I wonder if it is intentional. It seems that Blizz wants us to use traps, they have stated the Survival Tree is trap-centric and introducing a Trap Launcher seems to back that up. Black Arrow sharing a CD would seem to nullify using traps in many cases.
However, the amount of extra damage from Hawk Eye is extremely situational and miniscule at best, so I guess it comes down to how they treat traps/black arrow CDs. But I would gather that only one or the either is chosen, not like a couple of the posted builds I have seen so far where both talents had 3/3 in.
According to GC, trap launching probably won't make it in, "technology limitations" and black arrow and traps share the same cooldown.
You seemed to have misunderstood what I was stating about aimed shot in my previous post. Generally players who take aimed shot, take it because it's an instant. I did not mean to imply that most players take aimed shot.
According to GC, trap launching probably won't make it in, "technology limitations" and black arrow and traps share the same cooldown.
You seemed to have misunderstood what I was stating about aimed shot in my previous post. Generally players who take aimed shot, take it because it's an instant. I did not mean to imply that most players take aimed shot.
Gotchya. Well if traps and BA share a CD and with Trap Launching not making it to live... then Trap Mastery is useless and I guess Hawk Eye wins by default. It really is strange though that they moved Trap Mastery to the 2nd tier, it was almost like they were actually giving us something useful for those 3 points.
This really is going to effect SV DPS, since right now we are relying heavily on LnL Proc's. If LnL does not proc from Serpent Sting any longer, Black Arrow lasts 15 seconds yet has a 30 second CD, and the only way left to force a LnL is to use an add that is not immune to Frost Trap.... I wonder if MM buffs to Piercing Shots may justify going back to MM?
It seems like blizzard is really missing the mark with their trap oriented intentions for SV if they leave BA and traps on the same CD. I still can't figure out why they decided to do that in the first place, I'm guessing it is to limit dps or lnl procs but it seems like a very poor way of going about it as it ends up removing immo trap from any rotation.
However if we assume that they somehow implement trap launcher, or just give us a immolation arrow ability, and implement the immolation trap refresh on TnT then we're talking about a very viable new ability entering our rotation and potentially giving us a very strong way of assuring quick LnL procs after the ICD is down.
Keeping dots rolling plus the increase in damage that we're getting from both black arrow the new tnt and hunting party it really looks like on paper SV is going to come out on top once all the bugs get sorted out with BM. Hopefully the Immo trap viability goes live on the ptr soon.
Given that the Trap Launcher information (plus various trap-centric changes) was announced on the notes, it isn't too far fetched to assume the problem GC mentioned was something that very recently came up... Sounds an awful lot like the ammo issue tbh.
So Blizzard has a lot of ideas, but can't seem to make them fit. So we get stuff that's sitting between two chairs atm. This could be good or bad, but at least they have good intentions (as if a certain road isn't already filled with that). Seeing as how BM has recieved nothing but the new pet talents (and have they even gotten all of them?), I think it is safe to say that the PTR will see a lot more new stuff in the coming days and weeks. Hopefully the ammo/quiver issue will be addressed at some point, and more importantly the trap launcher stuff for Surv. I guess we will have to see.
Oh and btw smackz, you base your Black Arrow off the version you get when you first spec it. The level 80 version is like this: [10% RAP + 2765] Shadow damage. It's not going to scale that well, but it is somewhat powerful on a base level.
What I wonder is if it scales with itself... I mean when it hits the target will the Black Arrow suddenly do [10% RAP + 2765] * 1.06 shadow damage? Or will this not affect it?
At this point I'd be happy if they just left LnL proccing off Serpent Sting only, would be more chances to proc and more easily maintained than anything else.
ES refreshing Immo, Immo being able to be applied at the start of the fight by a thrown trap, and the trap proccing LnL instead of SrS was looking really elegant too, I'm sad that they [apparently, still holding out hope] decided not to let it work that way.
At this point I'd be happy if they just left LnL proccing off Serpent Sting only, would be more chances to proc and more easily maintained than anything else.
ES refreshing Immo, Immo being able to be applied at the start of the fight by a thrown trap, and the trap proccing LnL instead of SrS was looking really elegant too, I'm sad that they [apparently, still holding out hope] decided not to let it work that way.
Keep that hope at 5 stacks at all times, you will need it against doomsayers' Touch of Despair. I'm there next to you, for I don't believe the current talent setup can go on. Even Blizzard is bound to notice the amount of non/very low-DPS fillers we have in early Surv.
The trap toss and ES refreshing was pretty elegant. If you were not careful, you could drop it, with the immo glyph you could get a lot of damage, but you would need to be ever so careful then, and then LnL. Smooth.
The constant damage of Black Arrow (785) is indeed a little bit low, but it seems that you can't buy a higher rank from the trainer at the moment right?!
(Maybe i missed something in the patchnotes or a already known bug)
Hm, maybe I missunderstood something.
We should use Immo trap AND Black arrow too.
GC said trap launcher won't be implemented yet, but not a word about leaving ES refreshing Immo trap out. (Even it's not on PTR, this will be implemented.)
And the shared cooldown means we could lay an Immo trap under the boss (or better: the place where the boss will be tanked), keep the effect on the boss (with ES) and use BA on every cooldown. (refreshing the trap effect will not triger the CD, so we have lost only 30s because of the trap from BA.)
(If immo falls down from boss, then you have to reapply it again, so you lost 30s from your BA-CD.
That's just it KergeKacsa, right now the current PTR build does not have the Immolation Trap refreshing with ES. This was one of the changes reported by MMO that isn't actually on the PTR.
May I ask where you get this from? 5 minutes looking over the "DOOM DOOM DOOM" threads that precede every patch should tell you that something not being mentioned doesn't mean in the least bit that it will/won't be implemented.
EDITED for broken quote. (And later, for "Ignore what I said." It was said more eloquently and less snarkily by the post above me.)
That's just it KergeKacsa, right now the current PTR build does not have the Immolation Trap refreshing with ES. This was one of the changes reported by MMO that isn't actually on the PTR.
I only hope that this will be implementing. ES-refresgin-Immo is on the patch notes, but GC didn't say a word about that it will be left out from the patch (he told only about trap-launcher), so we could assume that this will be implemented.
With an immolation trap that refreshes on ES, the playstyle of SV hunter would be so nice, but:
You won't be trapping raid bosses to get LnL procs, even if they are immune to the effects. You probably won't be trap dancing much at all in PvE. You should really use Black Arrow for that purpose.
If the proc rate ends up being too low, that is certainly something we are willing to adjust
I'm an optimist and I say, they're going to change the ES-IT refresh system a few weeks later (like the announce of higher stacking arrows)
i remember one post where a CM said that some of the originally posted 3.1 changes are not yet implemented because they're testing some other functions.
Sorry for offtopic (this should be in the 3.1 Thread)
Interesting reading. However, most people take aimed shot, not for the damage boost since multi will do the same. They take it for the utility of having an instant that they can use on the move.
I noticed that you didn't factor in Black Arrow into that rotation. Would that offer any change?
I agree that aimed shot has it's uses, I just wanted to confirm that glyphing it over steady shot was inferior.
Black arrow shouldn't cause much of a change, as you'd just be replacing a steady shot every 10 gcd's. It *might* devalue the aimed shot glyph slightly more if it's priority is higher than aimed shot.
It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
<Bad> Dragonmaw US www.damnwesuck.com
12/13 [25] Heroic - Recruiting exceptional players.
I only hope that this will be implementing. ES-refresgin-Immo is on the patch notes, but GC didn't say a word about that it will be left out from the patch (he told only about trap-launcher), so we could assume that this will be implemented.
Trap Launcher was in too...
TNT was supposed to have the refreshing component, but it doesn't. If it was because the mechanic is acting up a little they would just leave the text in but the mechanic would be disabled. Like so many talents that are NYI. The removal of the refreshing from the description implies a more serious issue, and thus less likely to be fixed/changed/implemented soon. However the way the tree is so trapcentric on the low levels, but the playstyle requires us to not trap, while that was what they sort of wanted.... well that leaves me optimistic about future changes. It's a real mess now, an that can't stand, it will of course on the PTR, but at the end of the day it is not likely.
And honeslty... Black Arrow, an old internal beta ability with a little bit of changed stuff. It smells a long way of placeholder because their initial idea failed somehow (why it failed I can't understand). Imagine the cries if the position was just left empty. Something had ot be added, and quick. It likely isn't even balanced at all.
Trap Launcher was in too...
And honeslty... Black Arrow, an old internal beta ability with a little bit of changed stuff. It smells a long way of placeholder because their initial idea failed somehow (why it failed I can't understand). Imagine the cries if the position was just left empty. Something had ot be added, and quick. It likely isn't even balanced at all.
This makes a lot of sense. Black Arrow is the stop-gap for Trap-Launcher. Since Trap-Launcher is NYI and overly problematic to implement, they blew the dust off of their previously shelved Black Arrow. It seems like it could have had a very similar mechanic to Chimera Shot, however they have to deal with us not applying it to one mob, and then another when the trap itself is off CD. And that's if it only worked with Immo.
I really hope they see the simple way out of the LnL / BA / IT mess: remove BA from proccing LnL (maybe buff it's static damage a bit in compensation) and have ES refreshing Imo Trap (via TNT talent). This will allow both the use of traps in raids (even without the implementation of Trap Launcher) and will not affect the PVP aspect of the game in the slightest.
02/24/09, 7:07 PM
I'm there next to you, for I don't believe the current talent setup can go on. Even Blizzard is bound to notice the amount of non/very low-DPS fillers we have in early Surv.
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