I have had the same problem when MDing Sartharion himself. Each time I was moving when shooting Explosive Shot so no auto-shots should have been able to fire, yet all the times I have gotten some threat with him and a couple of times aggro. I have since switched to using arcane/aimed/auto on MD and have had no further problems.

The problem with mobs not accepting threat as soon as they become targetable has been around before, Magtheridon used to not accept threat right at the start of P2 as well.

As for threat from applying debuffs/buffs, I continue to be amused from things like P1 KT where I'll MD a tank to send an abom to him, and immediately see "attacking you" flash up above 3 skeletons, presumably because I applied buffs to myself and the tank.

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Hi Guys,

I am using the 6/14/51 spec but not sure how to best utilise my shot rotation. Can anyone share there rotation and explain why they have decided on it.

Thanks - Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I'd be happy to share. Start by reading the thread.

The first post might be misleading about your rotation, but with the help of the spreadsheets you should also be able to find that out easily.

1. First of all, you (or someone with glyph and specced for it) should apply hunter's mark before the pull.
2. Use rapid fire as soon as possible. On this way, you can use it again during a 5+ minutes battle.
3. Use kill shot as often as possible, it's your highest damaging attack.
4. Keep glyphed serpent sting up for lock and load proccs.
5. Use your explosive shot on cooldown.
6. Use aimed shot and steady shots as fillers during the cooldown of explosive shot. Prioritize aimed shot over steady shot for fights without mana problems because of it's higher average damage.

---

Regarding your misdirection problem with explosive shot:
When specced for survival, i use an aimed shot before the explosive shot while running towards the boss to not waste all three charges and there's no aggro issues ever for me on this way. Maybe you want to give it a try. If this doesn't work, use arcane and aimed shot for the pull.
It might be not the highest possible threat, but hassling around with a breathing drake on several attempts leads to more frustration in my experience.

are BM returning after 3.1 patch?

They never really left

Blizzard has stated that they weren't happy with post-3.0.8 BM DPS, but would be waiting until 3.1 (and the accompanying extra tier of pet talents) to tune it 'properly'. Between Wild Hunt and Shark Attack, and SV's slight DPS nerf, it looks like BM will still be competitive after 3.1. TBH, though, given the level of challenge that current raiding content presents, there's really no excuse for not using whatever spec you like (within reason, of course ). Unless Ulduar is a hellish meatgrinder (which is highly unlikely), raiding with a marginally sub-optimal spec is unlikely to make or break your progression anyway. It's the age of Bring The Player, after all

What am I doing wrong?

Hello everyone,

I am playing 6/14/51 spec and doing the rotation I should.
My gear is fairly good, even though I am missing Fury of Five Flights, a new helmet and better gloves. I don't use Mammoth Cutters, but it would most likely be a good idea to do so in the future. I will change my agi enchant on gloves to 20 hit later today, but that lack of hit can't be such a big difference, I guess.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Thing is, no matter what I do, I always end up being number 9-10 on dmg, whether if it's Patchwerk or Malygos.
I compare myself to the other hunters, and as you can see on the WWS, Lohegrin is doing alot better than me.

I haven't been SV before Wotlk, but I must do something severely wrong and I hope one of you could help me in figuring out what that is.

Wow Web Stats

Thanks for your help

Well Malygos isn't exactly the best fight to measure your DPS (to much rng going on with vortexes and spark positions), but you should definitely start using Rapid Fire. If you look at the Kill-Try you and Lohegrin have the same amount of Explosive Shots, but he has WAY more Auto Shots and Steady Shots. Although it is always advisable to be hit capped you didn't miss a single shot during the Kill-Try. Not using Rapid Fire doesn't explain such a big difference either, so it is reasonable to assume, that you are loosing to much dps-time running around, or trying to click on the right target during phase2. Bad Luck on Vortexes could also explain a few missing shots.

On that topic: last night we tried the "You don't have an Eternity" achievement a few times. After being caught in melee range during almost every Vortex during the first few tries I concentrated on standing about 20yards away from the center of the platform. Since that moment I was in shooting distance during every following vortex (about 10 tries after that). Is this just luck, or does the Vortex "remember" the distance between the player and Malygos?

This is what Ive noticed in 10-men Malygos as well. Stand at Range when you get sucked into the Vortex and you can continue to do ranged dps in the Vortex. Stand in Melee range and youre not so lucky.

On topic, I read Myul mentions the first post may be off in regards to what rotation to use. The first post states the rotation whith Rezdan mentions, I think this is currently the most valid one. I'll revise the top post when 3.1 goes live. Untill then, if you have comments in regards to what the first post should contain please PM me. The idea is that the first post is 'correct' so that it reduces 'stupid' questions and general confusion.

Yep, another "help me please" post. I read this thread as well as the spreadsheet thread multiple times a week, but please forgive me if I missed something.

Usually, my dps is pretty good. Here are the WWS reports for this week (so far):
Night 1: Wow Web Stats
Night 2: http://wowwebstats.com/xd4aswkw3kfrs?s=bosses (includes our guild trying Sarth+2 for the first time)

This is my Patchwerk for this week:
Wow Web Stats (which was on night 1)

First, I have no idea what happened between night one and night two. My DPS on the first night of Naxx this week was pretty dang good, I think, but on night two, it was much lower for the majority of the bossfights than it should have been (ignore Razuvious, as I died pretty early on). I was hoping someone could help me figure out what happened in comparing Night 1 with Night 2.

Second, while digging through the WWS reports, I have noticed that my pet is still missing a lot of the time. I recently swapped in some hit gems so I could take all my points out of focused aim, so my pet benefits from my total hit (which is capped at 263/8%). I did see a DPS increase on the first night, and according to the DPS spreadsheet, it was better than my previous setup with the points in focused aim. I just can't figure out why the pet is missing so much.

And last, all wonky issues aside -- what can I do to improve my DPS more? The spreadsheet says I should be doing 5600-5800 DPS, when I pulled 4k on patch this week. My current shot priority is:
SpS > KS > ES > MS > SS (With Kill Command and Rapid Fire used whenever it is up)

Here is my armory link:
The World of Warcraft Armory

I am gemming (and using Titanium weapon chains) for hit more than I'd like to -- but last night aside, the new setup has worked well for me. My DPS actually went up a good 200-300 after taking points out of focused aim and using gems/chains to get the hit instead. My main question is -- how can I go from the 4k I did on patchwerk, to the 5600+ it says I should be doing?

Thanks in advance for any help you all could give me. I appreciate it!

The spreadsheet is a fantastic tool. You should however understand that it is just that, a tool. You have to take the "advice" of the spreadsheet and use it optimaly. It may say with your gear, spec, enchants, and shot rotation you should be putting out X dps, but what it dosnt teach you is how to anticipate "lag" and what buffes you might be missing if say your 31 yards out. Timing is another component. Here is my WWS from Patchy, and Im missing a couple of spreadsheet best in slot pieces. Mind you the pieces are marginal upgrades, but ungrades non the less. 6.2k dps (adding the 900 dps from pet dps) is all I can manage. No matter what else I do I cant gain any additional dps. Maybe with the leg and hand "upgrades" per the spreadsheet I can, but giving guildies the oppotunity to gear up is more important than an additional 200-300 dps overall IMHO.

wowwebstats.com/x3zsiuqnruzec?s=53978-95636

My shot rotation is the Suv "standared"

ES-SS-SS-SS-ES.... nothing fancy other then trap dancing to proc LnL. Frost trap used so as not to trigger LnL's internal CD. 3.1 probably address's this however.

I should be more specific I think. My shot rotaion is the above rotation after I have:

Set HM
Place trap where pull will be (on boss fights your tank most likely has a spot he/she usually pulls to)
Apply SuST then pop all CD, trinkets and all, esspecially if BL is called. Pop RF from the get go.
Insert LnL rotation which it ES_ES_ES wait for the final tick before the next ES.
Insert rotation of ES-SS-SS-SS-ES
Trap is off CD on the way in apply AS and set trap
Disengage out
and repeat.
By the way, manage your pet and its abilities properly. Dont have CoW on cd before the boss fight. Turn it off for trash and have it ready for the boss encounter.

Hope this helped.

I hope it doesnt hurt too much, but your pet is already included in your 5300 dps

Also you left out the usage of Aimed/Multi in your explanation, which might lead to a bit of confusion.

Sinastra,

Don't use the spreadsheet as a "I should be able to do 5.6k dps" tool, use it was a "X>Y" tool. I don't think anyone has hit the numbers they see on the spreadsheet in-game. In terms of your Patchwerk dps, it's not too far off from what I'd expect to see. Your gear is very good, but not amazing. Your only had 2 LnL procs during the fight and it takes your guild a decent amount of time to kill Patchwerk, which will lower your individual dps. All the amazing Patchwerk WWS reports you see with crazy Hunter dps numbers are (as a rule of thumb) under 2 minutes. Get your Paladins and Warlocks to do more damage and your Mage to pay more attention and you'll see your numbers increase.

Thanks, I was told that the WWS seperated pet and hunter dps. Good to know. As far as Aimed I pointed out using it on the way in when trap dancing. Multi im not a big fan of. I have yet to see it increase my dps. Great shot for MD, but Ill stick with the rotaion I pointed out with an Aimed shot filler when needed.

Oh, and the 5300 dps you pointed out donst hurt at all. If I had died or caused the raid to wipe then there would be hurt. Dps is only good if your around long enough to apply it.

I don't think the other responders addressed this point so I will: your pet is not actually missing (at least on the report I checked, night 2). It is getting parried and dodged, to be sure, but it is not missing.
Wow Web Stats <- there is your cat. Click on the row for "Swing (Physical)" but not on the name of the attack, click in the row somewhere next to the name. The row should expand and show more details. You'll see the Miss/Parry/Dodge data, and see that all of your pet's "misses" are in fact dodges and parries. So you and your pet are hit-capped, but your pet is not expertise-capped. The only way to raise your pet's expertise (unless there is some esoteric piece of gear floating around with +pet expertise...) is through the BM talent Animal Handler, which you should take if you are BM specced (but it's too deep for other specs to consider).

A lot of these issues are just managing your shots. To this extent, I have been working on a spreadsheet to translate WWS numbers into something more tangible. I'm attempting to calculate out the number of times a shot could come off of cooldown through the duration of a fight, DoT uptime and also attempting to determine the number of steadies that could theoretically be cast in all remaining time (this spreadsheet tries to take a more sophistacated pass at steady shot cast time than the gear spreadsheet, by estimating the % of time in various states of haste, the cast time of steady in each of those states and then averaging them out, as opposed to the flat cross the board average that gear spreadsheet uses). This is to give you results about your cooldown usage, DoT time and total cast time in a clear percentage value.

While I don't feel 100% ready to release this work (nor certain it is worthy), I can show you a breakdown of a couple of your fights on it. Its really unfortunate you died on Razuvious, as that is really the other "stand and deliver" type of fight available, and would have been best for comparison with Patch. Instead I picked Kel, since aside from initial spacing and MC issues, you more or less stand there and kick his ass (it was about the best other option available).

So for Patchwork, your WWS translates into something like this:



You can see you did pretty good on some of your cooldowns, but could possibly improve on ES usage, and your sting uptime was really low.

For Kel, it looked like this:


You can see simply your % of CD used was significantly lower on pretty much everything, serpent sting uptime was better, but still barely over 50%. Total cast time was ~60%+ as opposed to over 80% on Patch. Granted you had to shadowmeld for some reason, and its not the best comparison of fights (your cast time % on Patch should be better than any other fight in the game), but that's pretty much covers the differences.

I doubt titanium weapon chain will help your DPS much. Massacre is still far superior, and accuracy is definitely better for 1-handers (25 crit vs 3 hit).

Other than that, I too don't see where 6k+ numbers come from. Let's say I could get at most 500 more by improving my gear, and reducing fight length from 3 minutes to 2 doesn't seem to yield 33% increase from bloodlust/rapid fire: if these buffs provide ~40% dps increase for 40 seconds, then total damage = Time * BaseDPS + 40 * 0.4 * BaseDPS, and average DPS = BaseDPS * (1 + 40 * 0.4 / Time); in a 3 minute fight you get BaseDPS * (1 + 16 / 180) = BaseDPS * 1.09, whereas in a 2 minute fight you get BaseDPS * (1 + 16 / 120) = BaseDPS * 1.13
Which is about 4% increase, and definitely not 33%. If 20 players did 6k DPS then pathwork would die in 108 seconds, thus DPS = BaseDPS * 1.15. Still far from 33%.

There must be some other significant reasons for such a large difference. Buffs?

@Faerdael

I'm sure I'm not the only one that would love access to that spreadsheet you mentioned if you'd be willing to share it with the hunter community. I'm always interested in what I can do better in a fight. Thanks.

I'm pretty much useless when it comes to making spreadsheets myself, I don't really understand Excel aside from putting info into Shandaras.

I just quickly grabbed one of the fastest Patchwerk kills from WWS for reference:
Wow Web Stats

The only notable buffs that were entirely absent are +crit % and Greatness. As others have noted, there's a significant gap in Serpent Sting uptime (28% vs 86%) which makes the LnL proc:minute very different. A quick note on this: if you feel like you're having a tough time keeping Serpent Sting up, I highly recommend Power Auras. It's fairly easy to configure so that some annoying green graphic shows up whenever your sting has fallen off.

Another obvious difference is he's casting 1 Explosive Shot every 5.7 seconds (2 LnL procs in small window=pretty good, thanks) and you're at 1/7.25 seconds. It may not seem like a huge gap, but over the course of a fight it will all add up.

No one plays perfectly, which is one of the appealing aspects of the game to me. In my experience, most dps issues don't boil down to "what else can I do?"--we're all casting Explosive Shot, after all--they come down to, "what can I do better/more efficiently." So don't look to totally revamp everything, just work on making sure you're doing everything you know you should be doing.

Thank you all very much for the help, I appreciate it.

I am worst at trying to remember to keep SpS up on the target. I have PowerAuras installed, but I keep forgetting to move the ! that appears on my screen when SpS is not on my target (I have it in the middle of the screen, but I spend so much time watching my action bars to keep an eye on cooldowns, that sometimes I miss it -- hopefully when I move it, I will get better at refreshing it.)

As far as not getting in as many ES as I should, I really don't understand how that can be improved. I hit ES whenever it is up, and when L&L procs I use ES>SS>ES>SS>ES (is that wrong?)

I honestly did not even think about what buffs I could be missing, server lag, or anything like that when it came to my dps. But if you guys say that my dps is good for my gear, I'm quite happy with that. My guild only recently put Naxx-25 and Maly on farm, so we're all still gearing up. But I am still quite happy with my gear's progress. Still needs some work, I admit, but hopefully within the next few weeks I will be able to replace some of the crappier stuff.

As far as the titanium weapon chains go -- I do realize they don't help with DPS, however, without them, I am not hitcapped. I plan to replace those with accuracy the second I am able to switch in a decent piece of gear with hit on it.


I am talking about the raptor from this week, not the cat from last week. Did you look at that one, too? I was mainly wondering about the 8% (i think it was) miss on Patchwerk for my pet.



Thank you all again for the help!