Just been doing some testing on heroic dummy in PTR. Wearing identical gear (4885 AP constant for both) and with all talents increasing explosive shot dmg from top of MM tree and survival, I got these (100 shots fired):
So it looks like the damage really has been doubled, should have huge implications for survival DPS if it goes live, aswell as a major effect on arena viability.
Also checked out arcane shot, not done a proper test yet but it costs the same mana as steady and appears to do significantly more damage, thats with glyph+serpent on target (clearly not as issue for surv as shared CD with explosive but significant for other specs no doubt.
But does this mean that trap dancing can get ignored or should we still do it go gain even more dmg? Imo, it feels pretty anoying to run back and forth on a boss. I did try to do it yesterday in Naxx but jebus, the lag was insane. Have to waite untill later this week to get a real try out.
Also, would u say that Arcane Shot is more viable both dmg- and mana cost wise vs Aimed Shot?
Atm I prefere using Aimed over arcane in PvE due to a but higher dmg, but i might be wrong.
@Rivkah
Thx for the tip on the spec. Atm im looking into a spec that suits me best. The first spec I had was more of a *I dont want to get keked in pvp outside pve* spec but it didnt help much
Also, would u say that Arcane Shot is more viable both dmg- and mana cost wise vs Aimed Shot?
Atm I prefere using Aimed over arcane in PvE due to a but higher dmg, but i might be wrong.
I would have thought that you'd prefer Aimed over Arcane in PvE because Arcane shares a CD with Explosive Shot and thus wouldn't be able to shoot it anyway.
I would have thought that you'd prefer Aimed over Arcane in PvE because Arcane shares a CD with Explosive Shot and thus wouldn't be able to shoot it anyway.
Oh -.- im stupid coz its friday...sorry...so very tired
ok this PTR change in SV really made my Friday less boring.
i could bet that ES will be a little nerfed before come to live, but lets say this would come to live.
i'm not looking to be 'almost melee' hunter to be trapdancing, so i'm trying to wonder if the sniper training can sustain a good Dps for a Raid Boss.
I mean, this 6% of increased dps really become a lot brighter with ES hitting harder.
with that i'm wondering.. will be viable to long range SV or it'll be still far behind a trapdancer?
and in a second question:
would be worth to use 3 points in Noxious Stings, or keep it with 1 point and use those two at GftT and/or Rapid Killing?
Well, they plan on buffing our melee strikes at some point soon as well, so trap dancing might be a fun option when combined with a massive raptor crit. I used to trap dance with Explosive all the time in Hyjal trash back in the day, so it shouldn't take too much practice to get some SV strats down. A spec that requires skill / finesse to play *After an expansion's worth of steady macro spam? Sign me up. On bosses that it's not an option? Who cares. You can still hang back and pew pew. It's still better than when a BM hunter's pet can't attack the target and the hunter loses 40-50% of it's damage.
with that i'm wondering.. will be viable to long range SV or it'll be still far behind a trapdancer?
As always, standard "these are PTR numbers" and "Serpent's Choice sometimes botches the modeling" disclaimers apply. Here are some base napkin-math numbers. They use the same assumptions I've used upthread, and do not include Sniper Training.
The first thing that should stand out is that ES is a really colossal amount of damage now. But does it make up for the inefficiencies of trapdancing? Let's see. Trapdancing, once every 24 seconds, replaces 3 Steady Shots with other damage: one is replaced with an IT, and 2 more with ES from the LNL proc. It also includes at least a little bit of movement on "pure" trapdancing fights (like Patchwerk), which will drop Autos. I think it is probably possible to trapdance at the cost of only 1 Auto per cycle in theory, but I couldn't cycle Reaver drops out of transports when I played Starcraft, so I doubt I could keep this rotation that tight. We'll assume 2 Autos are lost.
(1 IT + 2 ES) - (3 SS + 2 Auto) =
(2485 + 2 * 8294.84) - (3 * 1580.98 + 2 * 940.13) = 12451.48 net damage gained.
That cycle occurs ever 24 seconds with talented traps, which works out to 518.81 dps. Even if you're not very good at trapdancing, and lose both a 3rd Auto shot AND another Steady entirely, you are gaining 413.77 dps. In reality, the ability to buffer the movement with instant-cast Serpent Sting refreshes and/or Aimed Shots should ensure that trapdancing is never THIS inefficient, anyway.
How does this compare to Sniper Training? Not even a contest. If Sniper Training was just a flat 6% damage modifier across the board, you would have to be doing 6896 dps for ST to provide an additional 413.77 dps. And, of course, ST doesn't apply to everything -- notably, Auto Shot. So the only possible benefit to ST would be if there were a significant number of fights in which it was impossible to employ traps at all but in which ST was viable. In fact, I don't think there are any fights in the current content where that is the case.
From the perspective of trapping, fights come in three categories. The first case are fights where you can trap safely without, strictly speaking, trapdancing. Generally, these are fights with adds to Explosive (or, sometimes, Frost) or fights in which the boss runs around so much that you are virtually guaranteed that intelligently placed traps will go off. The second category of mobs are "pure" trapdancing fights, in which you must spend your time at 5-6 yd range and step in to trap then back out, as modeled above. And the third category are those fights where consistent trapping is simply impossible or too dangerous to be viable.
Category I:
Anub'rekhan (Guardians, little bugs)
Faerlina (nondamage traps on Worshippers)
Maexxna (spiderlings)
Noth (skeletons)
Gothik (adds, known teleport spot)
Gluth (zombie chow)
Ke'Thuzad Phase 1
Sartherion (+0-3 drakes; elementals if nothing else)
Category II:
Loatheb
Razuvius
Four Horsemen
Patchwerk
Thaddius
Archavon*
*Maybe easier if you're good at guessing where he'll run to ... but too easy to care about, really.
**Depending on how fast your tank moves the boss, and exactly how you handle slimes, this might be possible; in my view, better safe than sorry here.
Of those mobs for which trapping is simply not useful, ST rarely helps. Extreme range is impossible on Heigan, sometimes workable on Grobulus (but, then, so might be traps), dangerous on Kel'Thuzad (healing range for frost blast), and mostly impossible on Malygos. Sniper Training is, without argument, better than Resourcefulness on Sapphiron. Sniper Training is either equal to, or worse than Resourcefulness (and trapping) on every other encounter in WotLK, and essentially all trash pulls.
I withhold any judgment on whether 3/3 Hawk Eye or 1/3 Hawk Eye + 2/2 Savage Strikes is the optimal way to get past T2 SV. That will depend on a lot of variables, including just how well Raptor-Trap macros work in practice, that I cannot model here.
Last edited by Serpent's Choice : 12/19/08 at 2:14 PM.
Reason: Because 3 - 1 = 2, not 3.
Serp - When I was Dummy-Testing trap dancing on the PTR pre-WotLK, there's a sweet spot where you can just stand and shoot and dropped traps are still triggered by the hit box. On static fights, hitting that sweet spot early and standing there should help minimize any down-time. If ES hits this hard on patch, you're still looking at respectable damage at ranged from just a standard Sting, ES, Aimed, Steady rotation.
Trap-Dancing becomes the option, not the requirement, imo. Whereas, BM the pet is the requirement and MM is a good all-around fight-friendly spec.
** Edit
Basically, you can hit 51 points in SV and forgo Hunting party. Maybe This.
There's not really any fight where Hawk Eye is going to make or break your dps, so just pick up Savage Strikes. I always skip entrapment for the obvious "HALP get this mob off meh" comment every time it procs and someone is standing too close.
Anyhow, Hunting party is something that will help others much more than it will ever help SV - Not to be selfish, but... Viper time is so minimal to non-existent with all of these hard-hitting FREE to cast ES, and replenishment is usually already being covered. No one will miss it... maybe.
Well... maybe 1 point in Hunting Party wouldn't hurt, and pull one out of IAotH so you can still at least use the AotH glyph.
Dummies have a sweet spot for trap/min range shooting but unfortunately almost all bosses do not. Current trap activation mechanics require the trap to be close to the CENTER of the mob hit box and with the size of most bosses, you have to move in and out.
I also suggest people use this macro for getting a raptor strike in.
To max dmg as survival, you should get 2/2 savage strikes as well since imp hawk really does not bring anything for your personal dps.
Because there are really no good survival specific glyphs, I'd also really consider doing the 1 point in AOTH with glyph route as the glyph effectively gives you almost 2 talent points worth especially if you're not soft haste capped.
With the extremely high crit rate of surivival, only 1 point in Gftt should suffice.
That leaves you with the extra points to spend on either imp stings/rapid killing/focused aim/ (aim shot?). Personally I think I'll only take 1 point in hunting party as our guild always has a ret pally and is in the process of attaining a shadow priest. We also have 4 active hunters in guild and if any of them also chooses survival, there really is no reason to get more that 1 or arguably 0 points in hunting party.
Dummies have a sweet spot for trap/min range shooting but unfortunately almost all bosses do not. Current trap activation mechanics require the trap to be close to the CENTER of the mob hit box and with the size of most bosses, you have to move in and out.
I also suggest people use this macro for getting a raptor strike in.
To max dmg as survival, you should get 2/2 savage strikes as well since imp hawk really does not bring anything for your personal dps.
Because there are really no good survival specific glyphs, I'd also really consider doing the 1 point in AOTH with glyph route as the glyph effectively gives you almost 2 talent points worth especially if you're not soft haste capped.
With the extremely high crit rate of surivival, only 1 point in Gftt should suffice.
That leaves you with the extra points to spend on either imp stings/rapid killing/focused aim/ (aim shot?). Personally I think I'll only take 1 point in hunting party as our guild always has a ret pally and is in the process of attaining a shadow priest. We also have 4 active hunters in guild and if any of them also chooses survival, there really is no reason to get more that 1 or arguably 0 points in hunting party.
The macro combining RS and IT works quite well (I was just hitting the buttons together) but disengaging throws you back far enough that you will lose a few seconds worth of dps just getting back into range, not to mention in 24s you will need to scoot back into range for another forced LnL proc anyways.
So Im thinking of switching to survival, and been trying to hash out all the mechanics and everything with trap dancing and whatnot. One problem comes to mind which I havent seen any discussion of in this thread.
Currently Kill Shot has a minimum range that is greater than that of other ranged attacks. I dont recall what it is, its only a difference of a couple yards. However several posters have discussed standing in a position where you could drop traps which would be triggered, and be at range for attacks without losing time running, making for optimal DPS in situations where the boss isn't moving (which, truth be told, is the majority of situations where optimal DPS is really important, typically the more movement is going on, the less optimal everybodys DPS will always be, see Brutallus as an example.) The tradeoff, as things stand, is no Kill Shot. This would become even more of an issue after the patch when Kill Shot's timer gets reduced to 15 seconds.
So I guess my question is, does anybody know if theyre changing the range on Kill Shot? I can't imagine that this difference is intentional, but it wouldn't be the first time over the years Blizzard has neglected the hunter.
Kill Shot appears to be on the old 8 yard deadzone, it might just be a leftover from that time. I think I remember the devs talking about something like Kill Shot for a good time.
While Kill Shot is powerful, Explosive Shot is not that far behind really. Well obviously one to one Kill Shot wins every time, but even at 15 sec CD it is not going to be used all that much. Who has used it more than 2 times on most bosses where we could trap them? And obviously haven't used Readiness. That would go up to 3-4 times. Hardly that much difference tbh. And in order to get that you would likely have to sacrifice at least 2 Explosive Shots, perhaps 4 depending on when you can lay the traps.
In some mobile fights where you can preplan the traps you could get both, but Patch will likely end up forcing you to take one or the other. Kill Shot looks like it is better to go for at 20%, but a single trap at 18% is hardly going to be a problem anyway. A nice weave of ES-KS-ES would have my screen explode with goodies.
Btw, I would sat trapping on Heigan is possible. It just won't be trapping on the scale like one could see at Patchwerk. Beginning, lay trap on the path the tank will drag him. Then when the timer is nearly up lay one in the middle of the platform. Repeat. That's one extra LnL proc per teleport.
The macro combining RS and IT works quite well (I was just hitting the buttons together) but disengaging throws you back far enough that you will lose a few seconds worth of dps just getting back into range, not to mention in 24s you will need to scoot back into range for another forced LnL proc anyways.
I don't find myself that far away from bosses after disengages as their hit boxes are usually very large. Still, if you disengage too far, you can still scootch up towards the boss during the GCD refresh times of your explosive shots/serpetn stings.
basically you all are staying close to the boss(sometimes in range to shoot and trigger traps) while dpsing.
if thats correct, what specs and glyphs are you using.
Check it - here be some mathematicals on da immolation trap glyph. BOOYAKASHA!
Rank 8 Immolation Trap:
Place a fire trap that will burn the first enemy to approach for [RAP * 0.1 + 1885] Fire damage over 15 sec. Trap will exist for 1 min. Only one trap can be active at a time.
so let's assume a median of 4k RAP, which means 400 + 1885 = 2285 damage. divide that by five for 457 per tick.
with the glyph, you lose 2 ticks, but the remaining 3 ticks double in damage. so they should be doing 914 damage. that times three is 2742.
that means we get exactly a 20% increase in damage, and it's only over 9 seconds instead of 15. whether that's worth it or not, you can decide. but that should be the numbers, correct me if i'm wrong
I don't really think Immo Traps scale well enough to be worth Glyphing for. I'd considered it briefly but it's pretty meh, even with 8000 attack power.
800 + 1885 = 2685
3665 with Trap Mastery and Tracking
4142 with CoE/Ebon Plague
Glyph would bring this to:
4970 damage over 9s instead of 4142 over 15s, an 828 damage increase. Since the trap cooldown is 26 seconds, this Glyph represents a gain of ~32 DPS @ 8000AP and scales down slightly with less AP, maybe around 28-29 DPS for mid level gear.
Basically if your fights are going to last more than 9 seconds, this Glyph isn't worth a slot... and even if every fight was 9 seconds I still doubt I'd take it.
Still looks like it'll be:
Serpent Sting (get to save a couple GCDs per minute with this Glyph)
Steady Shot (still getting spammed between Explosive Shots)
I'll probably round off my set with Imp AotH... I never understood why anyone would choose the Rapid Fire Glyph but not Imp AotH, it's basically 6% passive haste. Especially when keeping in mind that the faster you're shooting, the more likely Imp AotH is procced anyway, it's a self feeding talent.
Also I think this goes without saying; but please don't let Blizzard get your hopes up with the Explosive Shot buff. I am 100% certain it will be massively scaled back to maybe 12% scaling instead of 18%.
The amount of damage a 25 man raid Explosive Shot will be doing is just way too unreal... especially with the monstrous amounts of AP that Survival Hunters can pack fully buffed. My gear isn't really optimal for Survival and even I'm pushing close to 7,500 AP buffed (note; buffed, not procced... I could get up to 9,500 with procs + CotW).
Explosive Shot; 18% RAP + 476 Fire Damage
1,350 + 476 = 1,826 base damage
With CoE, Tracking, Noxious = 2,293 damage
Critial Strike damage (with Meta gem) = 6,140 damage
Crit rate is easily 65-70% on Explosive Shot... With SV spec and full raid buffs, this is no exaggeration;
You'll be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1750 Agility which puts me around 38% crit. LotP for 5%, 3% crit debuff, 3% Killer Instinct, 10% Master Tac. That puts my crit up to around 59%. Explosive Shot then receives another 13% from talents which puts it at a 72% crit rate. Take off 5% for the new supposed "crit tax" and you've got roughly a 2/3 crit rate on Explosive... which also brings the mana cost of the shot down significantly (thank you Thrill of the Hunt) to around 71 mana for an Explosive Shot.
Anyway we can see that the average damage per Explosive Shot in a 25 man raid setting is around 14,600 once everything is factored in. During an LnL proc if you just fire the Explosives back to back with perfect timing so as not to overwrite the last one (ie: Explosive Shot, wait 0.5s, Explosive Shot, repeat), you'll do 7,300 DPS in that 6 second window of time excluding pet, Serpent Sting, auto shots, etc.
Let's just do a little sample DPS rotation and see how overpowered Survival is shaping up to be:
Average Explosive Shot = 14,600
Average Steady Shot = 1,780 (33% armor penalty on physical damage)
Average Auto Shot = 2,686 (same armor penalty) and we'll say we're hasted from 2.9 base ranged speed to 1.9 which is fairly realistic... 15% quiver, 21% IAotH, 10% Haste
So Auto Shot DPS is ~1,343
Explosive Shot DPS is ~2,433
Steady Shot DPS is ~1,186
Serpent Sting DPS is ~222
Something is off about this rotation and I'm racking my brain here at 5am to figure it out... sadly I'm not working at 100% capacity at the moment, haha. So we'll just do a ballpark DPS estimate with no LnL procs, no trinket procs, no CotW and no Rapid Fire:
So there you have it... I'm going to estimate Survival DPS with 7,500 buffed AP at around 4,800. Add in the pet's DPS on top of this number, I think most do around 800-900 DPS. That'd bring you to around 5,600 DPS and that's estimating on the low side.
LnL procs temporarily boost your DPS in that 6 second period of time by a sizeable amount. If you've got an on demand AP usage trinket, you can boost that even higher. Rapid Fire boosts your Auto Shot DPS from ~1343 to ~1880 during the span that it's up.
Needless to say, you're always looking to replace a Steady in the rotation for a Serpent Sting. Explosive Shot is an ALWAYS PUSH THIS type button. In fact in a non aggro sensitive fight, just lead with Explosive and then get Serpent up after, the 3% damage isn't worth putting up right away if it means you've got another Explosive Shot ready sooner.
Honestly with the distance that Disengage throws you and the fact that it costs you a GCD... I don't think it's worth it.
Stay minimum ranged distance from the boss the whole time, queue up Raptor and be firing an instant shot as you're about to run to the boss (refresh Serpent or use Explosive). Plant Immolation Trap, Mongoose Bite as you're strafing back out and be firing that first Explosive Shot right as the LnL proc happens.
NEVER let yourself lose an Explosive Shot cooldown when doing the trap dance.
Use the GCDs effectively. Either be reapplying Serpent, Hunter's Mark or firing an Explosive as you're running in. By the time your GCD is up again, you're probably in trap range already.
Honestly with the distance that Disengage throws you and the fact that it costs you a GCD... I don't think it's worth it.
Stay minimum ranged distance from the boss the whole time, queue up Raptor and be firing an instant shot as you're about to run to the boss (refresh Serpent or use Explosive). Plant Immolation Trap, Mongoose Bite as you're strafing back out and be firing that first Explosive Shot right as the LnL proc happens.
NEVER let yourself lose an Explosive Shot cooldown when doing the trap dance.
Use the GCDs effectively. Either be reapplying Serpent, Hunter's Mark or firing an Explosive as you're running in. By the time your GCD is up again, you're probably in trap range already.
Disengage is off the GCD. That's why it's suggested to use it with a immolation trap/raptor strike macro so that you are only using the GCD from immotrap.
As a BM hunter looking for a change, I'm tempted to dabble in Survival once 3.0.8 hits. However, I rolled the hunter class to stay out of melee range during boss fights, and so have little interest in "trap dancing". To me it goes against the very core aspects of the hunter class.
Anyway. After the patch, assuming Explosive Shot doesn't get nerfed, will a pure ranged Survival build be able to compete with a cookie cutter BM build in terms of DPS?
As a BM hunter looking for a change, I'm tempted to dabble in Survival once 3.0.8 hits. However, I rolled the hunter class to stay out of melee range during boss fights, and so have little interest in "trap dancing". To me it goes against the very core aspects of the hunter class.
Anyway. After the patch, assuming Explosive Shot doesn't get nerfed, will a pure ranged Survival build be able to compete with a cookie cutter BM build in terms of DPS?
The thing is, the points spent for a trap dance build and a regular sv ES build are not that different. You skimp on Hunting Party (already covered by other classes). Skip on Sniper Training. Otherwise, it's not that different. If you wanted to stay at ranged, you still can.
At the end of the day, it's just 3 points that really give you the option for a cool trap synergy, vs 3 points in a talent that you might use on 2 bosses. You can still play it however you want (ie, just because you can drop traps doesn't mean it's always practical to do so).
12/19/08, 8:52 AM
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