I did some futzing with the PTR spreadsheet (not sure really how up to date it is) and with my current gear I was kind of surprised to see the spec results. 6/14/51 turned out the best dps by a reasonable margin, but it was showing that the best dps output in survival comes from taking resourcefulness and leaving out sniper training and hunting party entirely (I was getting 6740.04 dps with that spec).
The best dps I could get out of a hunting party spec was 6722.23, which came from a 0/14/57 spec with hunting party, sniper training and resourcefulness.
I couldn't find any imp stings/aimed shot build that could compete. Are other folks finding different results with their gear setups?
Yeah that's about what I'm seeing. With (close to) BiS gear, the difference between 6/14/51 and 0/14/57 is only about 20 DPS for me though. That's about 0.3% DPS difference. Also, moving the three points from Hunting Party from the latter build into aimed and 2/3 imp stings is a 2 dps gain. Overall none of those builds seem to be exceptionally better than the others.
Originally Posted by Florrie
What flavour of hipster racism am i missing today?
I tried moving the 3 pts from hunting party into aimed shot and 2/3 imp stings and that only gives me 6702.99dps which is a 20dps loss over the 0/14/57 build (am I setting something wrong? I did change multi to aimed in the rotation when I tested this). I suppose there may be cases where getting aimed is worth giving up the dps from one of the other builds but you'd need to be in a raid that had plenty of other replenishment sources (mine sadly does not).
As he said, not much in terms of upgrades for those of us who already have Envoy. Avalanche is ilvl219, and is not an upgrade to Envoy. On the plus side, the loot tables certainly aren't finished yet, and not even half of the bosses have been tested (or maybe around half.) We haven't even yet seen Yogg's loot, let alone Yogg's hard mode loot. So it might be a bit early to worry about ranged weapons, and at the least there are some decent looking hunter items around apart from the ranged slot (Shoulders off hard mode 10 man Leviathon, for example.)
OK, I screwed up. I meant to hit the review button to make sure the URL displayed correctly and I must have hit the post button by mistake. Anyway, I didn't mean for that to be my entire post (been on conf calls all day and just getting back).
The point I wanted to make has already been made by you and others, namely that the loot tables are not complete and Hodir isn't the instance final boss and we can expect to see better weps.
I'm personally seeing the biggest DPS upgrade for myself going 0-15-56, with a point taken out of Hunting Party and given to Aimed Shot. It's about a 80 DPS upgrade fully raid buffed and about ~4 dps extra when using the "10 man team" buff list. Going 2/3 Sniper Training and 3/3 hunting party instead of the other way around is about ~8 less DPS raid buffed (and half a DPS loss 10 man). So it looks like come 3.1 I'll probably keep Aimed Shot, as I'd expect in movement-oriented fights this would be an even bigger gain.
Edit: I was probably going to go 3/3 hunting party and 2/3 sniper, but since it appears Sniper training isn't properly counting Explosive shot, I'll probably do the opposite. Is everyone else with their gear setup really finding one extra point in hunting party to be better than Aimed Shot?
Starwind: Exactly, I agree entirely, it's far too soon to jump to any conclusions around gear yet. You're absolutely right.
I run a sort of "safe" as i like to call it build. I have IAOTH, Careful Aim, and full EW. I took those talents because starting i was severely handicapped in each dps category (haste, hit, crit/agi). However, since upgrading most of my gear, a few of those talents can be revisited and points redistributed.
1. Haste- Since we have a tremendous amount of haste on our t7/t7.5 gear, coupled with the haste we get from rings/boots/capes/weapons, i believe that IAOTH is a beginning talent at best. I currently have 303 haste rating and will only tack on more from gear stats alone when i acquire another 2 pieces for the 4set bonus. We need 523 haste rating to cap steady shot casts, and i firmly believe that hunters can come close to that number with naxx tier pieces and off pieces (10 and 25man respectively). That being said, i think IAOTH is a talent that can be spec'd out of when you acquire more gear upgrades.
In this paragraph, you stated that you believe IAotH wouldn't be helpful after being in better gear. In my opinion, where else would you put the points? The extra auto shots will still be affected and you would lose 1% increased damage while you pet is active. I am not saying it is a stat to stack, but to consider.
To revisit the trapdancing pre 3.1 issue again, trapdancing outperforms sniper training for me by a fair margin. It's not modeled into the spreadsheet, but with frost traps and the appropriate talents, you can get between 4 and 6 lock and loads per minute. This allows you to use your highest DPS ability a much higher percent of the time, at the cost of moving every 24 seconds. Once you refine your ability to position yourself and strafe in and out spending as little time as possible on dropping the trap, you'll see your DPS go way beyond what you could get with sniper training.
A caveat- explosive shot scales with gear better than any other ability, and what I'm saying might only be true when you have a high raid-buffed AP.
In this paragraph, you stated that you believe IAotH wouldn't be helpful after being in better gear. In my opinion, where else would you put the points? The extra auto shots will still be affected and you would lose 1% increased damage while you pet is active. I am not saying it is a stat to stack, but to consider.
I ran into this issue myself. With gems and gear I was up over 520 Haste. The problem was how many other attributes I was neglecting to get that high of a rating.
I went to the 6/14/51 build few a few reasons.
1) A 1% damage increase (FF) became a significant amount as my gear got better, and will continue to do so as I move into 3.1 content--to the extent that I'm planning on doing a 7/13/51 build.
2) ArP benfits increase nearly exponentially. Each point you get is worth more than the previous point and with more Autoshots fired, there are more shots effected by ArP.
4) Even if I wanted to trap dance (which I don't) the boss hit boxes are broken. Because of their size, The trap must be placed almost directly in the center of the boss. For me that rules out all of the current trap enhancing talents. The only options that I was left with as far as spending talent points goes, was Improved Stings and Aimed Shot and then a couple of non-raid talents (Scatter Shot) or redundant points (3/3 EW). The 2/18/51 build was my only other real option, which is probably fairly close, except for the 1% from FF mentioned above.
Has anyone done the math on the engineering glove enchant for haste? I was curious how it adds up over the agi enchant for gloves. I believe the stats are 340 haste for 10 sec with a 1 min cooldown.
I ran into this issue myself. With gems and gear I was up over 520 Haste. The problem was how many other attributes I was neglecting to get that high of a rating.
I went to the 6/14/51 build few a few reasons.
1) A 1% damage increase (FF) became a significant amount as my gear got better, and will continue to do so as I move into 3.1 content--to the extent that I'm planning on doing a 7/13/51 build.
2) ArP benfits increase nearly exponentially. Each point you get is worth more than the previous point and with more Autoshots fired, there are more shots effected by ArP.
4) Even if I wanted to trap dance (which I don't) the boss hit boxes are broken. Because of their size, The trap must be placed almost directly in the center of the boss. For me that rules out all of the current trap enhancing talents. The only options that I was left with as far as spending talent points goes, was Improved Stings and Aimed Shot and then a couple of non-raid talents (Scatter Shot) or redundant points (3/3 EW). The 2/18/51 build was my only other real option, which is probably fairly close, except for the 1% from FF mentioned above.
The thing is, the 522 haste soft cap is not even what you should be looking at. First of all, its actually 523 if you don't round off the thousandths in the math. Second of all, assuming you have a 3% haste buff via Ret or Moonkin, the effectice raid soft-cap is 413. As it stands, Haste is currently about as good as ArP (not that great), which is worse than crit. In 3.1, Haste falls further behind even.
Pretty much I see the same thing as you on paper, that 7/13/51 (this is no ToTH, no Hunting Party) comes out ahead in 3.1 (if dps time is <= 4 minutes, as time adds, ToTh ends up being more valuable than Mortal Shots), and I am looking at either 7/13/51 or 7/11/53 depending on how my mana works out. A point by point comparison indicates to me that the individual points spent in IAotH are ever so slightly more valuable than the % increase of agility via Hunting Party, with the one notable point that Hunting Party scales, and IAotH does not. That being said, it still does not give better dps than IAotH until after I can crack 2k agility.
Your point about ArP is outdated. This was true in TBC when it was a flat "ignores X armor" stat, which meant that more ArP ignored an ever increasing percent of a mob's armor, but as a percentage based rating now, it is very linear.
Pretty much I see the same thing as you on paper, that 7/13/51 (this is no ToTH, no Hunting Party) comes out ahead in 3.1 (if dps time is <= 4 minutes, as time adds, ToTh ends up being more valuable than Mortal Shots), and I am looking at either 7/13/51 or 7/11/53 depending on how my mana works out.
As for dropping ToTH, did you try this with mana spring totem turned off, since it won't stack with BoW in 3.1? That, coupled with the Sniper Training fix (hack unprotect to the spreadsheet - it hasn't been changed yet) seems to favor 0/14/57, at least on the default 6 minute fight. The way it's looking right now I'd probably go 2/3 Hunting Party and take a point in Aimed Shot for a bit extra mobility, since Hunting Party is still pretty weak.
Originally Posted by Florrie
What flavour of hipster racism am i missing today?
Has anyone done the math on the engineering glove enchant for haste? I was curious how it adds up over the agi enchant for gloves. I believe the stats are 340 haste for 10 sec with a 1 min cooldown.
That is not worth it at all. Yes, you will have more total shots fired, but the agility passive is by far more increasing in DPS/Total damage over the engineering haste glove trinket. Also, the glove enchant has a short up-time, and a long cool down.
Is it me, or is 7/11/53 more dps than 0/14/57 or 0/18/53?
I realized that I had previously assumed 3/3 TotH was necessary (MS was the same). The dps progression I am getting goes 7/11/53 > 0/18/53 > 0/14/57. Only by about 10-20 dps per step, but I'd like to get another opinion so I know if I'm not crazy. I manually added the missing damage from ST.
Tbh, if I'm RL and a SV hunter shows up without his unique raid buff ( costs him 1 talent out of 71 pts to be effective )I'd boot him. Most calculations, spreadsheets and predictions point to improved BoM, BoK, BoW, etc... etc... Hunting Party should not be considered optional unless ofc you're playing solo and don't need the mana. Think of it as a 1pt claim to all the improved buffs you get.
Tbh, if I'm RL and a SV hunter shows up without his unique raid buff ( costs him 1 talent out of 71 pts to be effective )I'd boot him. Most calculations, spreadsheets and predictions point to improved BoM, BoK, BoW, etc... etc... Hunting Party should not be considered optional unless ofc you're playing solo and don't need the mana. Think of it as a 1pt claim to all the improved buffs you get.
I haven't seen anyone argue that replenishment is not worth bringing, but I can imagine that in several cases there are way more replenishers than you need. I haven't seen anyone try to argue that hunting party is not worth it if you actually need the buff; that's not the issue.
Originally Posted by Florrie
What flavour of hipster racism am i missing today?
Tbh, if I'm RL and a SV hunter shows up without his unique raid buff ( costs him 1 talent out of 71 pts to be effective )I'd boot him. Most calculations, spreadsheets and predictions point to improved BoM, BoK, BoW, etc... etc... Hunting Party should not be considered optional unless ofc you're playing solo and don't need the mana. Think of it as a 1pt claim to all the improved buffs you get.
Show me a 25 man raid without multiple sources of replenishment as is. The hunter bringing it is not neccessary with as many classes bringing it now, and even MORE of them bringing it in 3.1. And besides even if you have a few SV hunters, it only takes one for 100% uptime.
The hunting party situation is really raid specific. In my raid environment, we don't always have a ret paladin and we have yet to be able to find a regular shadow priest, so I am the primary source of replenishment for the raid, with the 2nd source usually coming from a ret paladin or another survival hunter, depending on who's available. Even with the changes in 3.1, I don't expect we're going to see many mages or warlocks speccing for it, so I don't think the situation will change much (except that our ret pali will probably show up more when Ulduar comes out).
An ideal raid would probably be running with both a ret pali and a shadow priest, in which case a 3rd replenishment source is only useful for additional uptime or in case one of the others dies- once you're above 3 replenishment sources it makes sense for others to drop it unless a spec that provides it turns out to be higher dps.
In 10 mans replenishment supply will be more tight, then it depends even more who you regularly run with.
To revisit the trapdancing pre 3.1 issue again, trapdancing outperforms sniper training for me by a fair margin. It's not modeled into the spreadsheet, but with frost traps and the appropriate talents, you can get between 4 and 6 lock and loads per minute. This allows you to use your highest DPS ability a much higher percent of the time, at the cost of moving every 24 seconds. Once you refine your ability to position yourself and strafe in and out spending as little time as possible on dropping the trap, you'll see your DPS go way beyond what you could get with sniper training.
Link some worthy trap dancing parses so I can see what I've been missing. The only recent direct comparison between a trap dancing hunter and a sniper training hunter with inferior gear resulted in him trailing by 600 dps.
Looking through this leaderboard, none of the hunters trap danced on Patchwerk.
With the focused aim fix on the current test patch, is it worth looking at putting 1-3 points into that talent in 3.1, or does gear give enough static hit rating that it is not an issue?
With the focused aim fix on the current test patch, is it worth looking at putting 1-3 points into that talent in 3.1, or does gear give enough static hit rating that it is not an issue?
Your question is kind of obvious isn't it? As it is looking currently, FA is having an effect on our pets. If this is something that transfers into Live with 3.1 that talent gains considerable value. We would now have up to 3% more hit to add via talents based on the amount of hit coming from gear. With a lot of Uldar gear having ArP plus other enticing stats besides hit, it is clearly a no brainer that we would look to use items with other beneficial stats beyond hit, i.e. agility, haste, crit, etc...
The question you should ask yourself (not on these forums) is will item "A" (no hit) with 2-3 points into FA yield more DPS for me than using item "B" (has hit) and 0-1 points in FA. This is, of course, all speculation until confirmation on Live servers that FA is effecting pets.
Last edited by Mattaos : 03/18/09 at 11:01 AM.
Reason: Fixed wording
Sorry if this is wrong thread for this. I was looking for the old "help me thread" but didnt see it. Anyhow:
I've been 80 for a couple days over 2 weeks, so a response to L2Play is what my goal is. I got 3600 dps, and i felt my rotation was pretty tight, but my goal is 4k. I dont know enough about analyzing wws to figure out where i could do better. But here is what i came up with.
1. Didnt have the best food.
2. Are there any scrolls i could have used for me or my pet?
3. I was using multishot in my rotation and i think that was a mistake since i had to go in viper. I'm thinking just steady/explosive should be used to try to avoid viper?
4. I think i was late using my 2 min cds so i didnt get to use them 100%
5. I'm weaving a shot between explosive shots on LnL procs. Should i just wait for the next shot?
6. I dont know if i was 31+ yards away.
7. I dunno if my viper use was good. i switched out of it the first time too early just because i miskeyed and just went with it.
I'm hoping to replace my ring by next week, and i'll hafta read up on ej and the survival hutner sticky thread. I was just wondering if anyone could spot an obvious mistake I'm doing that i could increase my dps.
Also talked to a guildie and said we run with a boomkin, so will probably have to adjust my gear based on a boomkin in the raid and not. For the most part, it is however many we have online and we'll pug the rest, so nothing is really guaranteed. I just want to get 4k dps.
Firstly, 3600 DPS on 10men patch with no physical crit buff and a single pally buff is no bad (You surely don't need to L2p). Don't expect to end the fight full on mana with 10mens. There are big difference between a 10men and 25men raid buff profile and that is really significant.
Things that your are currently doing fine:
1: Spec is correct
2: Shot percentages looks good
3: Didn't look like you overwritten any explosive shot ticks (I might be wrong and the number just worked out by chance)
Things affecting your DPS:
1: Gear: Still lots of room for improvement there, hit rating can still be higher and you will also need 25men gear.
2: Buffs: You will be lacking critical buffs in 10men, so don't expect to see numbers anywhere near 25men.
3: Kill time: As kill time improves, your DPS should go up due to higher % of time under haste CDs and buffs.
These things will make the majority of the DPS differences, then in addition:
4: You didn't fire ES on every possible CD, since you fight went on 3:52, you potentially could have fired 38 + 6 ES (due to LnL) where you only fired 34 (once again, you could have over written ES ticks)
5: You were in Viper for 19 seconds, lost DPS there
6: You had to pot mana instead of haste, minor loss there again.
Don't expect to end the fight full on mana with 10mens. There are big difference between a 10men and 25men raid buff profile and that is really significant.
I'd like to correct this to "don't expect to end the fight full on mana without Judgment of Wisdom."
Because that's all there really is to it.
03/16/09, 6:11 PM
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