I don't see how so. Each point in, say, MT is essentially 1.8% crit (assuming 90% uptime.) You gain 1.8% crit from going from 0 points to 1 point. You gain 1.8% crit going from 1 point to 2 points, and from 4 points to 5 points. The value of the talent DPS wise should really not change depending on the points you have in it. Sniper training I'm sure would be the same.
I checked this on my spreadsheet and, unbuffed, each point in MT is worth about ~29 DPS, whether it's the 1st point or the 2nd or the 3rd, etc. In fact, possibly due to rounding, the last point seems to be worth slightly more than the 1st one is. Sniper training gives similar results.
You are correct and I'm an idiot, I should have listed talents like Imp Hawk and EW instead, where 1 point brings you a completely new buff, but later points just give you improvements to that buff that are equal to the initial gain. Question still stands about whether the point in Imp Hawk listed above was for the first or last point.
You are correct and I'm an idiot, I should have listed talents like Imp Hawk and EW instead, where 1 point brings you a completely new buff, but later points just give you improvements to that buff that are equal to the initial gain. Question still stands about whether the point in Imp Hawk listed above was for the first or last point.
Imp Hawk is more difficult to analyze in that way due to haste becoming less effective once steady shot reaches 1.5s. Even then, the only times where it matters whether you're looking at the first or fifth point are if you a) are using the iaoth glyph or b) are not at the soft-cap for haste before procs.
Based on current stats (BiS should soft cap with just ret/moonkin), it's*probably* alright to assume steady shot is at 1.5s. The glyph still makes it problematic, but it's also likely to fade away as superior glyphs come out in 3.1.
Last edited by mako : 03/20/09 at 3:59 PM.
Reason: Spelling error
It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
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12/13 [25] Heroic - Recruiting exceptional players.
Noxious is not a must, but you better have a damn good reason to pas up 3% free damage. Focused Fire is a good alternative, given the small gap and point cost (I'm assuming you were going for 5/5 IAotH anyway, so it's 2 points for 2% for FF, and 4 points - wyvern included - for 3% in case of Noxious) makes up for that. But 5/5 Mortal Shots is probably still a must have. Also, 2/3 Expose and 3/3 Hunting Party is probably better than the opposite, since they added agility to HP.
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
5/5 Mortal Shots pretty much a staple for any build and definitely a huge waste of DPS/talent points to take away from it just to cap 5/5 IAotH. Focus Fire just isn't going be nearly enough to justify going that far down the BM tree when there are too many new talent in the SV tree providing much more DPS benefit, i.e Resourcefulness and Trap Mastery (not to mention Noxious Stings). Looking at previous topics discussed today about the ridiculous amounts of crit a SV hunter gains during an encounter the value of Mortal Shots goes way up and having a 30% crit dmg boost over 18% crit dmg boost is a pretty big differnece over the course of an encounter.
Last edited by Mattaos : 03/20/09 at 4:45 PM.
Reason: Fixed wording
To clarify from my numbers earlier, most were taken from removing the last point, but imp stings and imp hawk were tested based on the first point (my default settings for hunting party tests started out with 2 pts). I did some checking and I found for almost every talent I listed previously that the dps gain per point was roughly even depending on which point I changed- imp hawk for some reason was showing a slightly lower gain for the first point than for successive points (19 vs 22 dps) which I find strange since I'd think it'd work the other way (don't know if this is a spreadsheet bug or if I misunderstand the talent).
Those numbers also came from a full suite of raid buffs but I didn't adjust the length of fight or anything like that in the sheet. One thing I did forget to do was switch the gear in the sheet from what it came with to what I'm wearing, but when I switched it to my gear and gems (it was setup initially with BM gems) the numbers came out practically the same- the one big difference is that hunting party went up in value from 20dps to 22dps per point.
I also forgot to mention my sniper training numbers came from having aimed shot, without aimed shot sniper training went down from 77dps per pt to 70dps per point, which is still a very high value per point compared to most talents.
Anyhow- everyone's numbers are going to vary slightly depending on their own gear and settings, and the spreadsheet isn't perfect anyhow (I expect resourcefulness in particular loses some dps value in real world scenarios, since unless you refresh black arrow immediately you lose the value of the talent). But what I hoped to do by posting these numbers was to give people a more realistic idea about the relative value of the talents that they can use when sorting out their preferred specs, especially for those who for whatever reason can't use the spreadsheet.
I just took a 8 month hiatus from wow and just recently I decided to get back into it. I was raiding as a MM before I left. As I sit here and read this whole forum chock full of SV info. I was really hoping one of posters here would take a look at my Spec? And since they buffed SV during my abscense, Am I going all Haste/Crit as a SV hunter? I know I am trying to get to the SS soft cap. Do I need to focus more on AP?
Well from the info we have right now, it seems like if you really want to min/max dps this build would be the way to go. It lets you dump hunter party in favor of aimed shot (added benefit from sniper training) and supposedly imp stings is more dps per point than hunting party.
This assumes your raid doesn't need replenishment from you and you're already at soft-haste cap raid buffed.
Koijia, your gear in armory is all PvP gear so it's hard to give you useful advice, but the short answer is here are your priorities:
1) Get hit capped (8% hit is the cap) - if you don't have the gear to get there without focused aim you can spec into it- typically it's good to make your way out of it as your gear improves but when your gear is weak it's helpful
2) Focus on agility and crit as your primary stats once you have reached the hit cap - agility is your most powerful stat and should be gemmed for typically but you will want a healthy amount of crit, most of that will come from gear. Haste is actually not a terribly great stat since the steady shot nerf and although having some on your gear is useful, you are pretty much never going to want to gem or scope for it, and gear that has more crit and agility instead of haste tends to give you more benefit (sacrificing other stats to get to the haste soft cap is really not worth it). You'll really want to use the spreadsheet to get more detailed information on how various stats will affect your dps. Stamina actually gives you some dps contribution due to the hunter vs wild talent but it's not going to be huge- just enough that it may affect the final dps comparison on some pieces. You'll also never want to gem AP over agility- you get pretty significant bonuses to your agility from your talents so its itemization value is far higher for you
3) The 3.1 patch is coming very soon and they are changing some talents around- the basics of the spec and gearing won't change much but keep in mind whatever spec you pick will need to be revamped in a few weeks
5/5 Mortal Shots pretty much a staple for any build and definitely a huge waste of DPS/talent points to take away from it just to cap 5/5 IAotH. Focus Fire just isn't going be nearly enough to justify going that far down the BM tree when there are too many new talent in the SV tree providing much more DPS benefit, i.e Resourcefulness and Trap Mastery (not to mention Noxious Stings). Looking at previous topics discussed today about the ridiculous amounts of crit a SV hunter gains during an encounter the value of Mortal Shots goes way up and having a 30% crit dmg boost over 18% crit dmg boost is a pretty big differnece over the course of an encounter.
Based on your comments and others, I went back and tried the 0/14/57 build, and the one I proposed again, and a few other variations, and, with my macro'ed rotation, I'm actually seeing more benefit from going with hawk/FF than Noxious (~100dps or so and longer uptime before OOM). I'm just testing on the dummies, but I've ran enough to get an idea of what it's gonna do. Perhaps it's because I'm not at the soft haste cap either. (I did go to 1 GFtT and 4/5 Mortal)
I'll be first to admit that I'm terrible at timing shots, esp the 6-sec cooldown choices, so I am experimenting with macros to manage the basic rotation, and then manually include the other stuff.
(and yes, I know, manual weaving is optimal dps, so please don't start that argument.. :-)
One other thing I noticed... when Rake was on, even in my BM build tests, it was doing PITIFUL damage.. don't know why.. it was like 4% overall. Should it be that low?
Keep in mind that training dummies are not going to give you a realistic idea of damage differential compared to a raid environment. Raid buffs scale differently with different talents and shots, so when you're in an environment with no raid buffs some talents may be better (or worse) than they would be in a raid dummy environment. For example, you'll hit the soft cap on haste more easily in a raid environment due to the presence of a haste buff. You'll also go OOM far slower in a raid envirornment due to the presence of judgement of wisdom and blessing of wisdom.
I would expect that noxious stings and focused fire would be worth roughly the same amount per talent point (focused fire getting a slight edge from kill command and slightly higher uptime) but the talent points required to get there in hawk are the weak spot (and you can't get the 2nd pt in focused fire without scavenging a point from marks). Where are you taking your points out besides noxious stings?
I would expect that noxious stings and focused fire would be worth roughly the same amount per talent point (focused fire getting a slight edge from kill command and slightly higher uptime) but the talent points required to get there in hawk are the weak spot (and you can't get the 2nd pt in focused fire without scavenging a point from marks). Where are you taking your points out besides noxious stings?
Going 1/2 GFtT, 4/5 Mortal, 2/3 EW, 2/3 Resourcefulness, and 2/3 HP (and skipping Wyrnn//Noxious)
Like I said, limited testing on the dummys, but, with my macro'ed rotation (ES seems to be firing on time, LnL procs I'm still working on the timing) this spec seems to be giving the best sofar.
I figure I'll need 2/3 HP since I won't know what my raid comps usually are.
Like I said, limited testing on the dummys, but, with my macro'ed rotation (ES seems to be firing on time, LnL procs I'm still working on the timing) this spec seems to be giving the best sofar.
I figure I'll need 2/3 HP since I won't know what my raid comps usually are.
There is no such thing as using a macroed shot rotation to max your DPS, i think that has been told ages ago.
Specialy for a SV build u dont rly have a specific shot rotation since u wanna use ES whenever its up and it has absolute priority over Multishot, black arrow or Serpent sting..Also every haste buff like BL will screw ur shot rotation and u will lose alot of DPS.
There is no such thing as using a macroed shot rotation to max your DPS, i think that has been told ages ago.
Specialy for a SV build u dont rly have a specific shot rotation since u wanna use ES whenever its up and it has absolute priority over Multishot, black arrow or Serpent sting..Also every haste buff like BL will screw ur shot rotation and u will lose alot of DPS.
How exactly do haste buffs make you lose DPS? I could understand how this could be the case pre-3.0, but with how shots have become unlinked with the autoshot timer, I don't possibly see how you lose DPS by getting more haste unless your rotation/shot priorities are incorrect.
How exactly do haste buffs make you lose DPS? I could understand how this could be the case pre-3.0, but with how shots have become unlinked with the autoshot timer, I don't possibly see how you lose DPS by getting more haste unless your rotation/shot priorities are incorrect.
He's probably referring to the cases where people create set rotations through castsequence macros. If you design a macro to fire a specific number of steadies at any point, then you decrease your potential DPS while under the effects of haste.
Everyone just needs to realize that our shots are not part of a rotation, they are just based on priority/weight.
Hi guys im new here, so first i would like to say hello to everyone
Now lets get back to business :P I have a wow char:lvl 80 MM hunter pre-naxx geared from proffessions and heroics.I tryed to get the gear with the best dps according to maxdps.com and my dps is still low 1200-1400 in Heroics(1200 in UK heroic :|).Since i have such a low dps i tought i would change my tallent points to survival since i heard it has better dps...my questions are:
1.is my current gear appropriate for a SV hunter should i see increases in dps using a SV tallent build ?
2.When the patch 3.1 arrives will the SV hunter still have the best dps?(im asking this because i think some of you guys played on the PTR and might have seen some differences)
3.where can i see hunter gear ratings besides maxdps.com?
4.according to WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings i am ready to try naxx 10 man but im affraid my dps is too low for it...should i try it or wait to get better gear?
Also i tryed using Rawr since i find the spreadsheet way to complicated and my dps was lower with e SV hunter build using my currently gear...is it a bug or is it true?
Hope i dont sound too noobish and you will try to help me.Thx guys
Hi guys im new here, so first i would like to say hello to everyone
Now lets get back to business :P I have a wow char:lvl 80 MM hunter pre-naxx geared from proffessions and heroics.I tryed to get the gear with the best dps according to maxdps.com and my dps is still low 1200-1400 in Heroics(1200 in UK heroic :|).Since i have such a low dps i tought i would change my tallent points to survival since i heard it has better dps...my questions are:
1.is my current gear appropriate for a SV hunter should i see increases in dps using a SV tallent build ?
2.When the patch 3.1 arrives will the SV hunter still have the best dps?(im asking this because i think some of you guys played on the PTR and might have seen some differences)
3.where can i see hunter gear ratings besides maxdps.com?
4.according to WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings i am ready to try naxx 10 man but im affraid my dps is too low for it...should i try it or wait to get better gear?
Also i tryed using Rawr since i find the spreadsheet way to complicated and my dps was lower with e SV hunter build using my currently gear...is it a bug or is it true?
Hope i dont sound too noobish and you will try to help me.Thx guys
survival still should be best but by a small margin, other than max dps try plugging gear into shandras spread sheet found in a thread on the hunter forums.
you can easily be carried through naxx 10 by a good group, for progression you'll want 2k dps or so.
for survival you'll want all agility sockets while keeping set bonus, for now i'de say run 5 mans to get better blues/epics.
survival still should be best but by a small margin, other than max dps try plugging gear into shandras spread sheet found in a thread on the hunter forums.
you can easily be carried through naxx 10 by a good group, for progression you'll want 2k dps or so.
for survival you'll want all agility sockets while keeping set bonus, for now i'de say run 5 mans to get better blues/epics.
I'm going to have to disagree. For survival, I have found that stacking crit is far superior than agility. I have 10 best in slot items [according to Rawr] and they have all the agility I need[1355], as well as hit[267]. My haste [326] is suffecient enough, as a matter of fact Rapid fire and Improved Hawk lower my dps. Survival[and 3 points in careful aim] give you RAP via agi, stam, and int. So, with hit, agi, haste, ap, out of the way I chose to stack crit. 39.13% with a mere food buff.
I'm going to have to disagree. For survival, I have found that stacking crit is far superior than agility. I have 10 best in slot items [according to Rawr] and they have all the agility I need[1355], as well as hit[267]. My haste [326] is suffecient enough, as a matter of fact Rapid fire and Improved Hawk lower my dps. Survival[and 3 points in careful aim] give you RAP via agi, stam, and int. So, with hit, agi, haste, ap, out of the way I chose to stack crit. 39.13% with a mere food buff.
Just to clarify a few things.
1. You only have 7 BiS pieces.
2. Your point about crit while valid is not totally correct. You have not socketed crit gems per say. Instead you have socketed crit/stam gems and have enabled your socket bonus on a couple critical pieces.
For example on your legs there is a +12 AP bonus. Quite rightly, I do not see anyway that an agi gem could beat that bonus along with the crit bonus and the AP bonus from stamina. However, many people use the spreadsheet provided in these forums to evaluate for themselves what gem choices are best for them and their gear. Gem choices can vary depending on your raid buffs, socket bonuses, and the gear pieces that you have.
For example on the Blue Aspect Helm there is no way that a crit/stam gem is going to provide more of a bonus than an agility gem, because the socket bonus is terrible.
I doubt this has already been discussed in this thread. Since the buff of Potion of Wild Magic giving +200crit, doesn't it make better than Potion of Speed? especially as SV.
I tried entering in hand adjust on the spreadsheet and for me it says the haste pot (500 haste rating) increases dps by 228, the wild magic pot (200 crit rating) increases dps by 155. That's over the course of a whole fight so it could be that the situation is different for only the 15 second increment, but given that you get 2.5x more haste and you get less %crit per crit rating than %haste per haste rating, it seems logical that it would be better even if haste is weaker for survival.
If you're already riding the haste soft cap, perhaps Wild Magic is better. Even if you're not, you can still consider using those, depending on when you use the potions (i.e during Bloodlust/Heroism, Rapid Fire, or if IAotH is up)
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
I've done the same thing as Rivkah in the spreadsheet, trying to figure out if it's better to spread out speed potions and rapid fire, combine speed potions and rapid fire, or use wild magic and rapid fire. Stacking speed and rapid fire always came out ahead; I guess auto shot DPS is more powerful than increasing soft-cap (overrated in my opinion) time. Surely this will depend on how good your ranged weapon is though.
03/20/09, 3:37 PM
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