Also I think this goes without saying; but please don't let Blizzard get your hopes up with the Explosive Shot buff. I am 100% certain it will be massively scaled back to maybe 12% scaling instead of 18%.
The amount of damage a 25 man raid Explosive Shot will be doing is just way too unreal... especially with the monstrous amounts of AP that Survival Hunters can pack fully buffed. My gear isn't really optimal for Survival and even I'm pushing close to 7,500 AP buffed (note; buffed, not procced... I could get up to 9,500 with procs + CotW).
Explosive Shot; 18% RAP + 476 Fire Damage
1,350 + 476 = 1,826 base damage
With CoE, Tracking, Noxious = 2,293 damage
Critial Strike damage (with Meta gem) = 6,140 damage
Crit rate is easily 65-70% on Explosive Shot... With SV spec and full raid buffs, this is no exaggeration;
You'll be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1750 Agility which puts me around 38% crit. LotP for 5%, 3% crit debuff, 3% Killer Instinct, 10% Master Tac. That puts my crit up to around 59%. Explosive Shot then receives another 13% from talents which puts it at a 72% crit rate. Take off 5% for the new supposed "crit tax" and you've got roughly a 2/3 crit rate on Explosive... which also brings the mana cost of the shot down significantly (thank you Thrill of the Hunt) to around 71 mana for an Explosive Shot.
Anyway we can see that the average damage per Explosive Shot in a 25 man raid setting is around 14,600 once everything is factored in. During an LnL proc if you just fire the Explosives back to back with perfect timing so as not to overwrite the last one (ie: Explosive Shot, wait 0.5s, Explosive Shot, repeat), you'll do 7,300 DPS in that 6 second window of time excluding pet, Serpent Sting, auto shots, etc.
Let's just do a little sample DPS rotation and see how overpowered Survival is shaping up to be:
Average Explosive Shot = 14,600
Average Steady Shot = 1,780 (33% armor penalty on physical damage)
Average Auto Shot = 2,686 (same armor penalty) and we'll say we're hasted from 2.9 base ranged speed to 1.9 which is fairly realistic... 15% quiver, 21% IAotH, 10% Haste
So Auto Shot DPS is ~1,343
Explosive Shot DPS is ~2,433
Steady Shot DPS is ~1,186
Serpent Sting DPS is ~222
Something is off about this rotation and I'm racking my brain here at 5am to figure it out... sadly I'm not working at 100% capacity at the moment, haha. So we'll just do a ballpark DPS estimate with no LnL procs, no trinket procs, no CotW and no Rapid Fire:
So there you have it... I'm going to estimate Survival DPS with 7,500 buffed AP at around 4,800. Add in the pet's DPS on top of this number, I think most do around 800-900 DPS. That'd bring you to around 5,600 DPS and that's estimating on the low side.
LnL procs temporarily boost your DPS in that 6 second period of time by a sizeable amount. If you've got an on demand AP usage trinket, you can boost that even higher. Rapid Fire boosts your Auto Shot DPS from ~1343 to ~1880 during the span that it's up.
Needless to say, you're always looking to replace a Steady in the rotation for a Serpent Sting. Explosive Shot is an ALWAYS PUSH THIS type button. In fact in a non aggro sensitive fight, just lead with Explosive and then get Serpent up after, the 3% damage isn't worth putting up right away if it means you've got another Explosive Shot ready sooner.
Using Shandra's spreadsheet I put in most optimal items for a survival hunter.
Fully raid buffed. Agility would be well over 2k (2072), stamina 1586, and int less than 700 (691).
Assuming the very best ammunition, mammoth cutters on a fully debuffed raid boss.
I'm thinking to go back to raiding sometime after the holidays, and I just couldn't bear the thought of being BM... I find the news about ES quite reliving.
After reading through this post, I came down to a spec like this: 1/18/52
The points in Focused Aimed are obviously to be moved somewhere else as my gear improves - although the build seems to have all it needs as it is.
Personally I'm all for trap dancing, and I like the idea of survival being 'close but not melee' spec. With a decent twohander, the raptor strike you do while putting trap, plus the trap's damage, might partially compensate for the loss of an auto and a steady.
I don't really see Disengage as a valid option to move away - it might be useful on some fights, but you gotta remember that the distance it tosses you back is the distance you'll have to run in to put another trap down.
The risks of staying in melee range don't seem that great to me either - after all, melee classes spend their lives there and so do our pets. With the new generation tanks, the switch to 110% aggro boundary doesn't seem too frightening either.
What would really help, is to replace Sniper Training with some talent helping on the trap dance. Either:
Trap Toss: you place traps 2/4/6 yards in front of you (this might be quite annoying on non-raid occasions)
Sensitive Traps: increases the trap activation range of your traps by 1/2/3 yards.
Real problem, however, is that as soon as blizzard realizes what numbers can be crunched through trap dancing, they will nerf it to bits. From what I read, results without trap dancing are still quite interesting, so maybe it would be better if L&L was changed to have higher chance of procing off SS, but didn't have the trap part.
I simply do not see Blizzard making survival in a way that it stays on par with othr specs with no trapdance, while keeping trapdance as an option - it seems to be giving too huge benefit at the moment.
I've been SV for a long time during TBC but respecced BM for the T6 content, i'm looking at the incoming changes for my old beloved spec and have been running dummies test on the PTR.
While i was testing trap dancing i noticed some sort of internal cooldown on LnL, it seems that sometimes the immo trap get activated but doesn't proc LnL. It seems to me that this is occuring when you set up a trap right after a sting based proc of LnL. I've browsed through this post and the one about the 3.0.8 changes but noticed nothing about this.
Have someone also noticed this or have a tip about it?
Didn't want to post this in the 3.0.8 related thread as i'm not sure this is actually something new.
Ho, and as it is my first post i would like to thanks all the hunters here for they much valued contributions. And please forgive my poor english, i'm not a native speaker.
EDIT: Sorry, i ran another test with a WWS running, seems that the dummy simply resisted the trap, sorry for the mess :/
Piège d’immolation VIII Effet de Piège d'immolation misses Mannequin d’entraînement héroïque.
Ok simple question: How is 'Efficiency' working together with 'Thrill of the Hunt'?
In case TotH does not use the unmodified base manacost, Efficiency might significantly lower the value of TotH. Otherwise, this is a real solution to mana problems and it grants quite some additional time staying out of viper.
Nam, I think you misunderstood my post. Those dps figures were written additively. Steady Shot wasn't 4803 dps, it brought the dps total to 4803. The next line I say that I estimate SV personal dps at 4800 or so.
Also I believe Efficiency will simply reduce the mana gained from TotH by 10% as well since it is worded as 'restores 40% of the mana cost of any shot that critically hits'. If it reffered to base mana cost then I think you'd have a case.
Also I believe Efficiency will simply reduce the mana gained from TotH by 10% as well since it is worded as 'restores 40% of the mana cost of any shot that critically hits'. If it reffered to base mana cost then I think you'd have a case.
Christmas holidays so I can't get on to test, but I actually strongly believe this not to be the case.
Thrill of the Hunt is basically a clone of the Holy Paladin talent "Illumination," which as you know restores 60% of the mana cost of any paladin healing spell when it crits. But here's the really interesting thing we've found out over in the Holy Paladin thread--when mana reductions are applied to the costs of healing spells, Illumination returns 60% of the original cost, not the reduced cost. We've noticed this occuring through three sources: 1) Glyph of Seal of Wisdom, which reduces the mana cost of our heals by 5%; 2) Libram of Renewal, which reduces the mana cost of Holy Light by a flat 113; and 3) the 4PT7 bonus, which reduces the mana cost of Holy Light by 5%. Stacking all of these effects, it's been proven that Illumination still returns 60% of the un-reduced mana cost of Holy Light. It actually works out to returning 75% of the "real" mana that Holy Light ends up costing.
We need field testing to confirm, but the Illumination phenomenon does show precedence for this type of thing. If TotH works the same way, Efficiency would actually INCREASE the effectiveness of that talent.
However, it is worth mentioning that Holy Paladins don't actually have any way to reduce the mana cost of spells via talents--only through glyphs and gear. Things could behave differently with talent-based mana reductions. Let's find out!
Nam, I think you misunderstood my post. Those dps figures were written additively. Steady Shot wasn't 4803 dps, it brought the dps total to 4803. The next line I say that I estimate SV personal dps at 4800 or so.
Well in which case your guessestimate looks pretty good.
Well in which case your guessestimate looks pretty good.
ToTh returns base mana, so eff doesn't affect it.
It's easy to say that, but have you actually tested it?
Thrill of the Hunt
Gives you a 100% chance to regain 40% of the mana cost of any shot when it critically hits.
Illumination
After getting a critical effect from your Flash of Light, Holy Light, or Holy Shock heal spell you have a 100% chance to gain mana equal to 60% of the base cost of the spell.
This implies that if Thrill of the Hunt IS base mana (like Illumination), then it should behave like Illumination and return 40% of the base, unmodified mana cost.
It's easy to say that, but have you actually tested it?
Thrill of the Hunt
Gives you a 100% chance to regain 40% of the mana cost of any shot when it critically hits.
Illumination
After getting a critical effect from your Flash of Light, Holy Light, or Holy Shock heal spell you have a 100% chance to gain mana equal to 60% of the base cost of the spell.
This implies that if Thrill of the Hunt IS base mana (like Illumination), then it should behave like Illumination and return 40% of the base, unmodified mana cost.
Yes, I have tested it. It has been this way for a very very long time. I do not see any point however in using efficiency myself since I end most fights with 90-100% mana
Also I believe Efficiency will simply reduce the mana gained from TotH by 10% as well since it is worded as 'restores 40% of the mana cost of any shot that critically hits'. If it reffered to base mana cost then I think you'd have a case.
No, you're misunderstanding the talents and how they work. Efficiency reduces the mana cost of the shots/stinsg you're using. So, if you're using max rank Steady Shot and it costs you 500 mana, max rank of Efficiency would drop it down 10% to 450 mana per shot fired. Thrill of the Hunt refunds the mana cost by 40% of any special shot that crits. The mana cost refunded is calculated off of the base unaltered cost of the shot. So, taking the above example, if your Steady Shot crit, you'd sped 450 mana to fire it BUT you'd be returned 200 mana (500 x 0.4). Your total mana cost, in this example, is 250.
Thats the macro I use while I'm survival, but I was wondering if anyone had any idea as to how to tack on a Serpent sting in there that doesn't spam Serpent, but puts it up regularly. Any ideas?
Thats the macro I use while I'm survival, but I was wondering if anyone had any idea as to how to tack on a Serpent sting in there that doesn't spam Serpent, but puts it up regularly. Any ideas?
First of all, is there a particular reason you have Explosive Shot after the steadies? It's not a big deal once you settle into a 5-minute rotation for a boss, but for trash definitely you could get better mileage from throwing your best shot first.
To add strictly the functionality you're looking for, you would want to modify your macro as follows:
Be mindful however. There are several quid pro pros to a macro like this:
1) It's configured for Glyphed Serpent Sting, which is currently an 18-second duration. 3.0.8 will boost this to a 21-second duration, meaning you could land another steady or two before looping back to the start.
2) It doesn't take into account haste effects (personal or buffs). This macro basically assumes you have already haste-capped your Steady Shots. If you haven't, then Explosive Shot will actually be ready a little sooner in your cast cycle and you may end up "wasting" a GCD on Steady Shot instead of Explosive Shot.
3) Be careful about allowing the macro to reset if you applied Serpent Sting with any sort of AP buff. This is why I would recommend increasing the reset time to something more cushy like 5 seconds, or even longer. If you cast Serpent Sting while under the effects of an AP buff (orc racial, trinkets, blah blah blah) and then for some reason the macro resets (moving during a fight, LNL proc), then the macro will hang up on casting Serpent Sting and won't go any further until the AP-boosted Serpent Sting wears off. This is because it will not overwrite a more powerful Serpent Sting with a weaker one.
Personally, I use a combination of two macros for my rotation. The first is my "standard" shot macro, bound to 3. The second is my "LNL proc" shot macro, bound to Shift+3. This makes it very simple to alter your rotation for LNL procs by simply holding down Shift and spamming the same button you previously were, so I highly recommend it.
Got on the PTR, 3900-4000 DPS self sustained against target dummies as SV spec on a character I copied several weeks ago.
This is without a single buff.
There is not a chance in hell that Explosive Shot in its current iteration is going live.
Also, I'm able to kill people before they can react with LnL setup bursts. I've had Pallies who can't even hit Bubble fast enough before they realize what's happened. One second you're beating on me, the next you're in a Frost Trap while I'm flying backwards and quite literally 2-3 shotting you with chain Explosive Shots hitting for an average of 3.1k per tick. Roughly 18,600 damage delivered in the first 4 seconds with another 9,300 on its way... and if you really want to surprise people, let your LnL tick away for a couple seconds while you DPS them with a couple Autos + Aimed -- get them down to 70% HP before you 'outplay' them. The broken up damage is so fast and so sneaky that often times people don't even realize it.
Got on the PTR, 3900-4000 DPS self sustained against target dummies as SV spec on a character I copied several weeks ago.
This is without a single buff.
There is not a chance in hell that Explosive Shot in its current iteration is going live.
Also, I'm able to kill people before they can react with LnL setup bursts. I've had Pallies who can't even hit Bubble fast enough before they realize what's happened. One second you're beating on me, the next you're in a Frost Trap while I'm flying backwards and quite literally 2-3 shotting you with chain Explosive Shots hitting for an average of 3.1k per tick. Roughly 18,600 damage delivered in the first 4 seconds with another 9,300 on its way... and if you really want to surprise people, let your LnL tick away for a couple seconds while you DPS them with a couple Autos + Aimed -- get them down to 70% HP before you 'outplay' them. The broken up damage is so fast and so sneaky that often times people don't even realize it.
I'm willing to bet that they'll either push it to a single burst shot of 18% RAP + X or they'll keep it in its current form and push it to a 10s cool down. But you're right, the insanity that is the current Explosive Shot won't make it to live. If it does, it is going to get slapped down fast.
I'm willing to bet that they'll either push it to a single burst shot of 18% RAP + X or they'll keep it in its current form and push it to a 10s cool down. But you're right, the insanity that is the current Explosive Shot won't make it to live. If it does, it is going to get slapped down fast.
I'm not even sure about the 10 second thing, it would still allow for triple Explosive Shots back to back that can instantly kill anyone.
If I were a betting man, I'd say it gets nerf batted down to 12% scaling per tick.
At least I know Blizzard well enough at this point to be able to figure out when they're dangling a ball of yarn above me with no intention of ever letting me have it.
I just tested out my usual 7/57/7 spec on the PTR actually and it's not clocking in THAT much lower than Survival's DPS.
Was around 3650-3750 DPS compared to 3900-4000 as Survival.
Got on the PTR, 3900-4000 DPS self sustained against target dummies as SV spec on a character I copied several weeks ago.
This is without a single buff.
There is not a chance in hell that Explosive Shot in its current iteration is going live.
Also, I'm able to kill people before they can react with LnL setup bursts. I've had Pallies who can't even hit Bubble fast enough before they realize what's happened. One second you're beating on me, the next you're in a Frost Trap while I'm flying backwards and quite literally 2-3 shotting you with chain Explosive Shots hitting for an average of 3.1k per tick. Roughly 18,600 damage delivered in the first 4 seconds with another 9,300 on its way... and if you really want to surprise people, let your LnL tick away for a couple seconds while you DPS them with a couple Autos + Aimed -- get them down to 70% HP before you 'outplay' them. The broken up damage is so fast and so sneaky that often times people don't even realize it.
Just curious, was this with trapdancing or just sitting back and plugging away?
just a thought, but if your trap dancing then hawk eye kind of loses its usefullness. so i thought about taking savage strikes to help raptor strike when trapping. also, i cant test it right now, but trap mastery seems like a good payout for 1 point since well use immo trap every cd, and it gives a little more utility to boot.
also, i dont know if its been noted. but it seems that the LnL proc from SS and traps can stack. I was playing around with the test dummies, shot a serpent as i ran to melee, dropped my trap, and both had proced giving me 6 ES in a row. maybe im just behind the times and didnt know that was possible. can anyone confirm this? ill keep playing around with it to verify it if not.
Got on the PTR, 3900-4000 DPS self sustained against target dummies as SV spec on a character I copied several weeks ago.
This is without a single buff.
There is not a chance in hell that Explosive Shot in its current iteration is going live.
Your numbers are twice mine, so I wonder about them. I'm able to get 3k dps, but only on the level 60 training dummy, and only with trapdancing. On the boss dummy, I'm at 2200 dps trapdancing. Both cases selfbuffed with dragonhawk.
Your numbers are twice mine, so I wonder about them. I'm able to get 3k dps, but only on the level 60 training dummy, and only with trapdancing. On the boss dummy, I'm at 2200 dps trapdancing. Both cases selfbuffed with dragonhawk.
I'm pulling same numbers as Him on the 80 Boss Dummies. Only Hawk.
I'm pulling same numbers as Him on the 80 Boss Dummies. Only Hawk.
I'm not sure how you're doing this. My Explosive Shot is hitting for 1250 a tic. The best that I got was low 3k DPS and that was against the lvl 60 dummy. But then I went to tinkering with macros and trying to include Aimed Shot and everything went to pot.
SO, for the sake of testing, while your gear is edging mine, thos that are curently testing on the PTR, give us a run down of what you're doing.
- Are your numbers on the 80 dummy?
- Are you trap dancing?
- What is your spec?
- What macro, if any, are you using?
On the side note, Steady Shot hits for absolute garbage. My non-crit SSs, with 4500 self buffed RAP, are running aroung 650-750 damage. My auto shots hit harder than this. What a waste for an attack that has a base 2.0 casting speed.
@harmann earlier in the thread you have mentioned you are doing 4k DPS on the dummies. Silly question really what is your spec buildup along with these specifics so i can see what i am doing wrong on my own hunter. I thought i was fairly well geared and find that i am nowhere near your level of dpss so if ya don't mind answering
1) Total RAP
2) Pet Used
3) Shot rotation
4) Glyphs
If i am just being too presumptious here.. please excuse me but im just curious. i started raiding as a hunter only recently and still trying to learn the in-outs of min/maxing. Was a warlock/sp last expansion
Here is my info, I wanted to post this but had to rush out for a Christmas dinner, you know how it is...
I test against level 60 or 70 dummies. Testing against the Boss dummy is completely unrealistic and quite frankly even the 80 dummy is as well.
Boss dummy partially resists most spells, in raids CoE takes care of this completely. As a Survival Hunter I provide 0 throughput buffs to myself or anyone which means that the amount my damage should shoot up once I have: 10% AP, Might/BShout, Horn/SoE, MotW, Arcane Int, Fort, LotP/Rampage, etc, etc, etc is astronomical. The 60/70's lack of mitigation against my attacks doesn't even begin to come close to matching the amount my power ramps up with 25 man buffs, but it comes closer then the 80 or Boss dummy does.
For example, when I test my DPS on my Fury Warrior, I use either the Boss dummy or the 80 because I'm already giving myself 2 of the best melee buffs available and thus I won't scale THAT much higher in a 25 man setting.
For the last month or so I've taken to only testing my DPS against the 60 and 70 dummies and the numbers I get still fall way short of what I can expect to hit in raid settings.
There is a screenshot taken during one of my DPS trial runs. This test was abnormally high which warranted the screenshot, but you'll notice my damage sample is almost into the 300,000's and that DPS figure you're seeing is an overall average.
I was trap dancing, but not specced to lower the trap cooldown.
No macros used.
3/17/51 Spec.
ilevel 200-213 gear.
Serpent Sting, Steady Shot, Rapid Fire Glyphs (would have used Imp AotH Glyph instead, but didn't have one on me and none on the AH).
Here is my info, I wanted to post this but had to rush out for a Christmas dinner, you know how it is...
I test against level 60 or 70 dummies. Testing against the Boss dummy is completely unrealistic and quite frankly even the 80 dummy is as well.
Boss dummy partially resists most spells, in raids CoE takes care of this completely. As a Survival Hunter I provide 0 throughput buffs to myself or anyone which means that the amount my damage should shoot up once I have: 10% AP, Might/BShout, Horn/SoE, MotW, Arcane Int, Fort, LotP/Rampage, etc, etc, etc is astronomical. The 60/70's lack of mitigation against my attacks doesn't even begin to come close to matching the amount my power ramps up with 25 man buffs, but it comes closer then the 80 or Boss dummy does.
For example, when I test my DPS on my Fury Warrior, I use either the Boss dummy or the 80 because I'm already giving myself 2 of the best melee buffs available and thus I won't scale THAT much higher in a 25 man setting.
For the last month or so I've taken to only testing my DPS against the 60 and 70 dummies and the numbers I get still fall way short of what I can expect to hit in raid settings.
There is a screenshot taken during one of my DPS trial runs. This test was abnormally high which warranted the screenshot, but you'll notice my damage sample is almost into the 300,000's and that DPS figure you're seeing is an overall average.
I was trap dancing, but not specced to lower the trap cooldown.
No macros used.
3/17/51 Spec.
ilevel 200-213 gear.
Serpent Sting, Steady Shot, Rapid Fire Glyphs (would have used Imp AotH Glyph instead, but didn't have one on me and none on the AH).
There are a lot of red flags I'm seeing here. Using a level 60 heroic dummy is basically cheating. I believe there's a 0.2% crit change depending on level? So you're getting about 4.6% more crit than vs a level 83? You're also very well below hit cap; but this is not a factor against a level 60.
The warrior comparison makes no sense - how do warrior buffs compensate for level difference? Why do we assume they are equal?
I don't see the problem with testing against a level 83 at all. Do you have screenshots of partial resists for explosive shot? As far as I can tell it's a physical attack that does fire damage; meaning it's still on the physical attack table and not subject to partial resists. I'm also under the impression that boss resist levels, except for specific bosses that actually have resistance (Supremus), are due to level discrepancies and cannot be overcome by spell penetration or CoE.
12/23/08, 9:57 AM
so if ya don't mind answering 
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