The Survival Hunter in WotLK - Page 89

ankah · 04/14/09, 8:16 PM

@Pyroblade61

did you include the 1 point into wyvern sting for the Noxious stings numbers? If it is not used on a rotation, I would imagine we would have to take that single point into account, further decreasing the value of noxious stings on the per point scale

Somacruz · 04/14/09, 8:26 PM

I went with 1 pt in aimshot for my 3.1 surv spec, and having a hard time deciding 3/3 hunter vs wild, or 3/3 in hunting party. Anyone have a good way of deciding?

With about 1203 stam, I would either get 10% (120.3 ap)

or

with about 1435 agi, I would gain 1% (14.35 agi)

I am leaning towards 3/3 Hunter vs wild, Let me know if my assumptions are incorrect.

Edit: or do I choose only 2/3 resourcefulness?

Squinky001 · 04/14/09, 8:38 PM

Originally Posted by Somacruz

I went with 1 pt in aimshot for my 3.1 surv spec, and having a hard time deciding 3/3 hunter vs wild, or 3/3 in hunting party. Anyone have a good way of deciding?

With about 1203 stam, I would either get 10% (120.3 ap)

or

with about 1435 agi, I would gain 1% (14.35 agi)

I am leaning towards 3/3 Hunter vs wild, Let me know if my assumptions are incorrect.

Edit: or do I choose only 2/3 resourcefulness?

The spreadsheet is pretty much the only way to find out which is better DPS for your given gear. 2/3 Resourcefulness is probably a bad idea because of the reduced cooldown it gives to Black Arrow.

Rivkah · 04/14/09, 8:58 PM

Originally Posted by Somacruz

I went with 1 pt in aimshot for my 3.1 surv spec, and having a hard time deciding 3/3 hunter vs wild, or 3/3 in hunting party. Anyone have a good way of deciding?

With about 1203 stam, I would either get 10% (120.3 ap)

or

with about 1435 agi, I would gain 1% (14.35 agi)

I am leaning towards 3/3 Hunter vs wild, Let me know if my assumptions are incorrect.

Edit: or do I choose only 2/3 resourcefulness?

In order for hunting party to be better than hunter vs wild with those numbers, 1 agil would have to be worth at least 8.38 AP. It's not even close to that in any gear universe I can think of, so I think it's a safe bet to stick with hunter vs wild. Resourcefulness comes out ahead of hunting party as well for damage contribution everytime I've checked, so hunting party definitely seems the best target to drop. If you're concerned about uptime I wouldn't worry, 2 points in hunting party really should be sufficient uptime.

Epoch615 · 04/15/09, 1:32 AM

Well patch is up and I think I've found a great spec for maxing dps with the new Black Arrow spell.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Went from 2500 dps in H VoA pre-patch to 3500 dps post. Decent increase I think.

Veloraa · 04/15/09, 2:24 AM

I dont think i like throwing Aimed in my rotation seems like im losing DPS cause i alwasy find myself having to refresh black arrow-serpent and aimed at the same time(from time to time) and it drop my dps alot

Skybluesky · 04/15/09, 3:28 AM

Originally Posted by Epoch615

Well patch is up and I think I've found a great spec for maxing dps with the new Black Arrow spell.

Not that I see BA as the centerpiece of the current survival build, but I checked out your linked spec. Seeing as there are a total of 6 talent points you can use to buff BA, I find your decision to go 0/3 in Resourcefulness puzzling.

alienangel · 04/15/09, 3:29 AM

FWIW, I'll chime in to say that a 3/14/54 spec is working out Spreadsheet-Best for me by about 5 dps compared to the usual 1/15/55 and 0/15/56.

I have only 299 haste rating from gear though, which is probably what makes ImpHawk that much better. This is using pre-3.1 glyphs, but even with replacing the current Glyph of the Hawk with one of the new glyphs, the 3/14/54 spec is in the lead.

In the end though, I think I'm just speccing 1/15/55, since giving up aimed shot, replenishment and better scaling with gear doesn't seem worth it for ~5 dps

Helliox · 04/15/09, 3:44 AM

Have you taken into consideration that unlike Multi-Shot, Aimed Shot is buffed by Sniper Training ? With that in mind, does Hunting Party still come out on top of Aimed Shot or is it better to put 1 point in Aimed Shot ?

edq28w1982 · 04/15/09, 3:47 AM

I was serching on US armory for top guild hunters and almost all of them are using 0/15/56

But i think we will know for 100% which one build is the best on after servers will be up and we will try them on raid.

I think i will start with 0/15/56 and SS+KS+ES glyphs (offcourse if they will be avaidable).

Zeel · 04/15/09, 4:04 AM

Originally Posted by edq28w1982

I was serching on US armory for top guild hunters and almost all of them are using 0/15/56

I assume you are referring to http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...0&version=9767
I ran some tests with spreadsheet and it is indeed the build that nets best dps at the moment.
Dropping imp. aoth and getting aimed and 2/3 hunting party were such a dps increase that it couldn't be passed.
Assuming those "top guild hunters" were running spreadsheets too it's no wonder they came up with same results.

Pootch · 04/15/09, 4:16 AM

Originally Posted by edq28w1982

I was serching on US armory for top guild hunters and almost all of them are using 0/15/56

But i think we will know for 100% which one build is the best on after servers will be up and we will try them on raid.

I think i will start with 0/15/56 and SS+KS+ES glyphs (offcourse if they will be avaidable).

I will also start using 0-15-56 built (2 pts @ hunting party)
+ Serpent / KS / ES glyphs...

The spreadsheet says SS glyphe is doing better dps, but serpent glyphe is more practical on many situations.
Steadyshot is the lowest priority shot as survival hunter.

edq28w1982 · 04/15/09, 4:27 AM

But dont You think that SS glyph witch gives You +10% dmg from SS and Sniper traning witch gives You +6% dmg from SS is better then Serpent Glyph witch only makes Your Serpent String 6 sce longer?I dont think so and thats why SS glyph>Serpent glyph.

Phanuel · 04/15/09, 4:54 AM

Probably ordinary knowledge for most here, but [Mirror of Truth] and [Pyrite Infuser] will proc following each other and don't appear to share a combined 45 sec cooldown together.

alienangel · 04/15/09, 5:01 AM

Originally Posted by Helliox

Have you taken into consideration that unlike Multi-Shot, Aimed Shot is buffed by Sniper Training ? With that in mind, does Hunting Party still come out on top of Aimed Shot or is it better to put 1 point in Aimed Shot ?

I didn't have to take anything in particular into consideration, since the spreadsheet does so long as I enter talents and shot rotation correctly. For my gear, which is slightly lower haste than BiS, the spec with 3 points in Imp Hawk, 0 in aimed and 0 in hunting party came out ahead in spite of Sniper Training, yes.

Assuming that I don't want to spec that way though, a point in aimed worked out better than a 2nd point in HP.

As with most things, this is dependent on gear; as you can see for several people above the same spreadsheet is finding 0/15/56 to be the highest DPS, which it definitely wasn't for me (it was the lowest of the lot, although it had the highest AP/Crit numbers).

lifesense · 04/15/09, 6:07 AM

I'm also now wondering whether the newly-buffed [Darkmoon Card: Death] is competitive for us, now averaging 2000 damage per proc.

I ask because it's not at all clear to me how close to the 3.1 on live v86e of the spreadsheet is.

Nakaya_kilrogg · 04/15/09, 7:38 AM

After a night in Ulduar, I found the new survival shot priority to be a bit clunky. Not that I want to go back to the days of steady shot spamming all through the fight, but BA being added in and KS on the GCD just seems really hectic, especially when a mob gets below 20% (I admit, I had KS on my steady macro and loved it that way). I found myself either staring at timers and missing part of the fight, or staying out of fire and missing shots. If any of you had the same problems, what did you do to tighten your shots up?

Corbetti · 04/15/09, 8:01 AM

Originally Posted by Nakaya_kilrogg

After a night in Ulduar, I found the new survival shot priority to be a bit clunky. Not that I want to go back to the days of steady shot spamming all through the fight, but BA being added in and KS on the GCD just seems really hectic, especially when a mob gets below 20% (I admit, I had KS on my steady macro and loved it that way). I found myself either staring at timers and missing part of the fight, or staying out of fire and missing shots. If any of you had the same problems, what did you do to tighten your shots up?

In 3.0.9 I had Aimed and Serpent on a macro (to prioritise and reduce keybindings, not for single button spam) something like:

#showtooltip
/cast [mod:shift]Serpent Sting
/castsequence reset=10 Aimed Shot, Serpent Sting

I.e. I'd shoot Aimed whenever it was up at the right point in my priority sequence. The shift modifier is necessary for if you are switching targets. {Caveat: took this from my macros-cache.txt as waiting for EU servers to come up so can't check it right now}

I'm hoping to be able to do something similar with Black Arrow (possibly even adding it to the same castsequence, though that'd require yet another modifier...) - maybe you could have a play with that, see what you come up with?

Kill shot I'll probably put on a shift modifier with Steady or Explosive. I'll still end up relying on TellMeWhen more than I'd like though.

CrowneVict · 04/15/09, 8:59 AM

I had to edit KS from my macros on the fly, and dumped most of them until I get more time to adjust my binds.
For now, because I'm out of keybinds, I'm using something like this to replace my serpent keybind:

/castsequence reset=target serpent sting, black arrow

Basically, I want to string them together temporarily... and be able to still sting certain mobs on re-target. Not optimal, but with sting glyphed still, basically I hit this twice whenever BA cd is up, then go back to my rotation. I was literally being summoned into the raid 1 minute after the servers were up... no time to play with stuff and fix broken macros and/or mods (Quartz was giving me headaches with all of the buffs filling up my screen, most others have now been updated... waiting on AG_Unit).

Corbetti · 04/15/09, 9:20 AM

Simulationcraft output to back up previous post regarding a castsequence priority-macroing of aimed/BA & SrS:

0.00     Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs black_arrow
3.23     Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs serpent_sting
4.83     Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
16.36    Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
24.60    Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs black_arrow
29.47    Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
42.61    Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
49.24    Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs black_arrow
50.88    Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs serpent_sting
55.79    Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
68.85    Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
72.05    Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs serpent_sting
73.64    Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs black_arrow
80.28    Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
93.42    Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs serpent_sting
96.76    Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
98.38    Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs black_arrow
110.07   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
116.75   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs serpent_sting
123.31   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs black_arrow
124.89   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
136.37   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
137.97   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs serpent_sting
147.85   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs black_arrow
151.18   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
161.06   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs serpent_sting
164.40   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
172.50   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs black_arrow
177.33   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
183.96   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs serpent_sting
190.65   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
197.27   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs black_arrow
203.84   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
205.42   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs serpent_sting
216.88   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
221.83   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs black_arrow
226.60   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs serpent_sting
228.31   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
239.88   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
246.56   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs black_arrow
251.54   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
261.62   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
271.58   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs black_arrow
273.27   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs serpent_sting
274.93   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
286.53   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs aimed_shot
294.71   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs serpent_sting
296.30   Corbetti_01_15_55_2H performs black_arrow

In total, I cast
BA x 13
SrS x 12
AiS x 23

There is a sequence inversion at ~72 seconds which means we'd lose a couple of seconds of SrS uptime, i.e an imperfection (shock, horror). After that the model will no longer show our hypothetical castsequence, but the numbers of shots cast is still useful.

In conclusion, I believe its not going to lose that much DPS overall to do BA, SrS, 2xAiS on rotation provided its weaved in behind KS & ES in priority and ahead of SS. If it keeps you out of the proverbial fire, it might work for you.

Edit: Tried on some normal mobs, due to the variance in cooldowns this doesn't really work. I agree with Nakaya_kilrogg, at first try it seems clunky and overly hectic. I guess I'll do what I normally do after any mechanic change and ditch all addons/macros until I have it working manually, then try to optimise for minimum RSI...

Spatrick · 04/15/09, 9:23 AM

I know this is not the macro thread but like many survival hunters I had kill shot macroed in all my shots to go off if it was available. I assumed since Black Arrow was instant I could just replace black arrow where kill shot was but it doesnt work at all.

Did Bliz change something with how macros work or I am I missing something? The macro was something like this:

old:
/cast Kill Shot
/cast Explosive Shot

new:
/cast Black Arrrow
/cast Explosive shot

The new macro doesn't work at all and I can't figure out why it wouldn't. Thanks in advance for replies.

Celfydd · 04/15/09, 9:27 AM

Originally Posted by Spatrick

I know this is not the macro thread but like many survival hunters I had kill shot macroed in all my shots to go off if it was available. I assumed since Black Arrow was instant I could just replace black arrow where kill shot was but it doesnt work at all.

Did Bliz change something with how macros work or I am I missing something? The macro was something like this:

old:
/cast Kill Shot
/cast Explosive Shot

new:
/cast Black Arrrow
/cast Explosive shot

The new macro doesn't work at all and I can't figure out why it wouldn't. Thanks in advance for replies.

Macros work in the same way. The reason it does not work is that Black Arrow causes a global cooldown. If an ability causes (read: can cause if it succeeds) a global cooldown then only the first such ability will be executed in a macro. Subsequent GCD-provoking abilities will be silently ignored. So your macro will only ever cast Black Arrow.

Note that in 3.1 Kill Shot has also been put on the global cooldown so the first macro won't work any more either.

Tharia · 04/15/09, 9:28 AM

Kill Shot was not on the Global Cooldown before 3.1 so you could shoot both shots at once.
Black Arrow (and Kill Shot post 3.1) is on the Global Cooldown and the macro system doesnt allow two abilities which trigger the GCD in one macro.

Spatrick · 04/15/09, 9:30 AM

Ahh ty, thats where I was wrong.

I thought Black Arrow was not on the GCD.

Thanks

Luckyshot · 04/15/09, 9:36 AM

Has anybody noticed yet that aim shot is resetting the auto shot timer? I saw this mention on the hunter forums, and tested it myself. I thought this was remove with the introduction of Wotlk. I am wondering how much this will effect shot rotation tests in the spreadsheet and simcraft if this isnt taken into account? If I am wrong and this is factor in forgive me, but I was shocked that this was still the case.