Comparing my SV specs DPS to rogues,mages and locks in our guild made me think i was doing something wrong. It's miracle to be in top 5, while the rest are pulling 5k-7.9k easily i barely can compete with them.
You stated some of the bugs after 3.1, yet fixing these bugs won't push hunter to be in top 5 at max in any ulduar boss fight.
Suggestions that will help PvE issue and not breaking PvP balance:
1- revert windfury change to affect ranged again.
2- mortal shots affect auto shots again.
3- improved tracking affect periodic dmg from BA and SrS.
Black Arrow and Serpent Sting are Ranged damage - they already get bonus from IT. Previous wording was "all non-periodic damage"
I wanted post a parse from the only encounter I was able to stay on a single target for an entire fight to show some results from a spec I tried last night. 3/15/53 DPS Parse - Damage Done Comparison w/ MM Hunter
Ignis still requires some movement, but is far less than most fights in Ulduar. We only cleared the Siege Wing last night and the other 2 parses for Razor & XT-002 were not a good reflection on single target DPS with the number of adds I am handling.
Obviously, me having Hawk Eye was not a DPS factor for this particular parse, but IAotH was a DPS boost by allowing a more Steady Shots & Autos to fire during Quick Shot procs while I was able to stay stationary. I do not want to call this the ideal spec, but maybe this parse can be compared to some others that are using other SV variations. I was not overly impressed with the 0/15/56 build the first week of Ulduar, but I also had some lag issues that played a factor.
I also wanted to note the effectiveness of the Kill Shot glyph, since it came up late yesterday on this thread. I was able to get off 7 KS on Ignis, as opposed to only 4 possible KS unglyphed. I would have to go back and look deeper, but I believe Ignis was only below 20% for about 60 sec or so.
I believe the original debate over hawk eye vs trap mastery and imp AotH and Imp Sting was for the last 3 bosses. Ignis is a pretty melee friendly fight where everyone (at least in my guild) stays very close for AoE heals directly behind the boss to dps as much as possible. I would be hesitant to use it to compare the effectiveness of the two talents. Personally I haven't even seen Mimiron, General, or Yoggy, but when people reported how important hawk eye was for these fights, I have to question how much up-time quick shots is going to be compared to imp. sting's steady performance.
Here is the report from our Tuesday raid, unfortunately we don't raid again till Sunday (we are a Hard-Core-Casual guild). Ignis Kill Shots and XT kill shots.
First of all you should know the tooltip is wrong on the rocket. The CD is 45 seconds not 1 minute. Napkin math tells us... ((1440+1760)/2)/45 = 35.555 dps and it can crit (not sure how to calculate this). I have chosen to use the rocket, and have it on the same gcd as aimed shot. I 'pull' for the boss fights so I find it rather convenient.
I'm debating taking GftT 2/2 for now because of these reported bugs. With over 35% of our Shots not even potentially returning focus(BA, SrS, ExS) it seems that 1/2 isn't sufficient to keep my pet from being focus starved. Heres the bugs being reported:
1. Sniper Training does not affect BA damage(true or no?).
2. ES is not proccing Thrill of the Hunt anymore.
3. ES is not proccing Go for the Throat anymore.
4. ES is not proccing Fury of the Five Flights.
5. ES is not proccing HaT(for rogues)
These are also reported in the 3.1 upcoming changes thread but until Blizz acknowledges and/or fixes them I think they're relevant to this discussion.
I'm wondering about point 4 its intended change or its bug ? Because looks like now Mirror of truth is better than Fury of the Five Flights. Its confirmed as bug?
I'm wondering about point 4 its intended change or its bug ? Because looks like now Mirror of truth is better than Fury of the Five Flights. Its confirmed as bug?
I think only physcal damage gains stacks on that tricket, which means only Autoshots, steadyshots and...LOLmelee. I believe ES is Fire damage so it will not count (which is also why some PvP SV hunters go for some Spell Penetration to boost it).
One pleasant little "quality of life" surprise I've noticed is you can MD pull with Explosive Shot now. The initial hit and 2 tics push all threat to the tank.
I just tested this at the dummies and Misdirection faded right after the 1st tick, so 1 second before the 2nd tick.
Combatlog:
15:33:05.615 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Soulcow","Soulcow"34477,"Misdirection",0x1,BUFF
15:33:05.615 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,"Soulcow","slack",0x1111,34477,"Misdirection",0x1
15:33:05.615 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Soulcow","slack",0x1111,35079,"Misdirection",0x1,BUFF
15:33:08.123 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,"Soulcow","Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,60053,"Explosive Shot",0x4
15:33:08.796 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Soulcow","Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,60053,"Explosive Shot",0x4,DEBUFF
15:33:09.492 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,"Soulcow","Soulcow"34501,"Expose Weakness",0x40,BUFF
15:33:09.496 SPELL_DAMAGE,"Soulcow","Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,53352,"Explosive Shot",0x4,3055,2453,4,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
15:33:10.023 SPELL_DAMAGE,"Soulcow","Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,53352,"Explosive Shot",0x4,1285,1284,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
15:33:10.026 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Soulcow","Soulcow"34477,"Misdirection",0x1,BUFF
15:33:10.026 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Soulcow","slack",0x1111,35079,"Misdirection",0x1,BUFF
15:33:10.787 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,"Soulcow","Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,60053,"Explosive Shot",0x4,DEBUFF
15:33:11.052 SPELL_DAMAGE,"Soulcow","Heroic Training Dummy",0x10a28,53352,"Explosive Shot",0x4,1156,1155,4,128,0,0,nil,nil,nil
(removed some hex numbers to make it a bit more readable)
I believe the original debate over hawk eye vs trap mastery and imp AotH and Imp Sting was for the last 3 bosses. Ignis is a pretty melee friendly fight where everyone (at least in my guild) stays very close for AoE heals directly behind the boss to dps as much as possible. I would be hesitant to use it to compare the effectiveness of the two talents. Personally I haven't even seen Mimiron, General, or Yoggy, but when people reported how important hawk eye was for these fights, I have to question how much up-time quick shots is going to be compared to imp. sting's steady performance.
Here is the report from our Tuesday raid, unfortunately we don't raid again till Sunday (we are a Hard-Core-Casual guild). Ignis Kill Shots and XT kill shots.
Hawk Eye was not what was being looked at when i posted, it more directed at IAotH. I believe Hawk Eye has already been established as a benefit for a majority of Ulduar encounters. Ingis was the best parse to use since it shows more "single" target damage vs. a heavier add fight like XT or Razorscale. I am not really sure your point about AoE healing and being a melee friendly boss. My post was not intended to draw out others into a pissing contest over DPS, but to provide data. Raw data the WWS reports provide is the best tool we have to determine best practices, i.e. spec, shot priority, etc...
Here is a report from last nights Iron Council showing a side by side comparison where I emphasized ES as my main priority. My counterpart looked to reapply BA first. Something else to note is she uses the Glyph of Hawk vs. my Glyph of Serpent Sting. The report shows us neck-n-neck in DPS, but her number of Auto Shots (and damage done) out weighted my SrS damage.
The spreadsheet doesn't include the 6% damage bonus, my black arrow ticks for something in the low 1000s for five ticks which matches with the 6k total damage number.
I realize not all of our damage is affected by the 6% multiplier, which is why I used 5k (your personal dps may vary, which will change the numbers somewhat but not by a whole lot) instead of the theoretical 7k dps according to the spreadsheet.
Actually I have to come back to this, because basically you are right, you just had all the numbers wrong, so I discarded it too early.
So while the damage of the shots on the shots tab in the sheet already includes all of the damage added to them, also BS and noxious stings boni, depending on your rotation, you are right when you say that it actually makes sense to rethink some of the approaches to damage per gcd per special shot. In BC there was nothing like that, so we are not used to it, and noxious stings alone really didnt got the big attention, at least not from me.
But if you want to be sure to really calculate the value of each shot per cooldown (if it reaches its full duration), its true that you actually have to remove the bonus damage of the other special shots and add it to either serpent sting and black arrow.
All the damage gained by the 6% bonus of black arrow should be substracted from all other shots and put on black arrows account. The same is true for serpent sting and its 3%, and also even the 10% of steady shot if you have the glyph.
I havent done it yet, but I imagine it can change their value by a good margin and might even let some rethink their priorities.
Why should you add all this damage to SS/BA? What you are deciding isn'T (shouldn't be) IF you use these shots, but WHEN, so you just have to add the difference between a normal ES and a buffed ES depending on your use before or after the buffing shots. If I just miss something please point me to it.
Hawk Eye was not what was being looked at when i posted, it more directed at IAotH. I believe Hawk Eye has already been established as a benefit for a majority of Ulduar encounters. Ingis was the best parse to use since it shows more "single" target damage vs. a heavier add fight like XT or Razorscale. I am not really sure your point about AoE healing and being a melee friendly boss. My post was not intended to draw out others into a pissing contest over DPS, but to provide data. Raw data the WWS reports provide is the best tool we have to determine best practices, i.e. spec, shot priority, etc...
Here is a report from last nights Iron Council showing a side by side comparison where I emphasized ES as my main priority. My counterpart looked to reapply BA first. Something else to note is she uses the Glyph of Hawk vs. my Glyph of Serpent Sting. The report shows us neck-n-neck in DPS, but her number of Auto Shots (and damage done) out weighted my SrS damage.
Sorry didn't mean for my tone to come off as a dps pissing contest. What I meant was that due to high mobility needed (such as running away in iron council, but again more importantly the last 3 bosses) would decrease the number of Auto Shots and Steady Shots substantially while your Serpent Sting continues to tick. It is amazing how close you and the other hunter were! I noticed your other hunter has 1 point in Imp. Stings and Only left 1 point in TotH along with having slightly better gear/stat allocation. I also noticed you had a much longer kill time then my group so it would be hard to concentrate on the Stings vs Auto/Steady dmg that we are both trying to decipher.
At a side glance however I noticed quick shots is up 37% of the time during that fight and serpent sting contributed 73,943 damage. Since Quick shots would have only effected Autos and Steadys, it would have 'enhanced' (574,808+278,756)*0.37=315,818, and would have only buffed 9% of this damage for 315,818*0.09=28,423 and that is assuming you were never moving while it was active. Had you had Improved stings you would have seen 30% more damage from the 73,943 you did which would be 23,682. As you can see these damage contributors are very close, and if you were moving during Quick Shots up-time then it would not have even contributed as much, negating my 28,423 estimate. Again this is only my 'guesstimate' and please correct me if my math assumptions are wrong.
The reason why I use the best possible gear as a baseline in the spreadsheet as opposed to my current gear is because this is all a preparation for hard-mode where these choices are gonna really count. With the spreadsheet dead even in dps between the two, I can only be concerned with loss to my dps because I am moving, and at that point losing 2 gcds (or more) worth of 'stand still' dmg would have me to believe serpent sting is better then Imp AotH. I prefer to get used to a set rotation I can mindlessly perform (I use shot proc that makes a sound effect to pump out those extra explosives) while I pay attention to the more important things like the environment around me. Should a situation occur that quick shots procs and I am forced to move, I would be kicking myself in the ass for missing that extra dps time.
Why should you add all this damage to SS/BA? What you are deciding isn'T (shouldn't be) IF you use these shots, but WHEN, so you just have to add the difference between a normal ES and a buffed ES depending on your use before or after the buffing shots. If I just miss something please point me to it.
You are right, its not about exchanging, only about prioritizing, but that doesnt change the fact that you still need to know which shot gives you the best damage result per cooldown, because you will probably use it first then. Its just the same logic as why you use ES first. It gives the most damage (after KS) if it can tick out.
If you were to say you can only apply 1 second of damage, then actually ES is lower then AS, but thats not really likely to happen often.
Hawk Eye was not what was being looked at when i posted, it more directed at IAotH. I believe Hawk Eye has already been established as a benefit for a majority of Ulduar encounters. Ingis was the best parse to use since it shows more "single" target damage vs. a heavier add fight like XT or Razorscale. I am not really sure your point about AoE healing and being a melee friendly boss. My post was not intended to draw out others into a pissing contest over DPS, but to provide data. Raw data the WWS reports provide is the best tool we have to determine best practices, i.e. spec, shot priority, etc...
Here is a report from last nights Iron Council showing a side by side comparison where I emphasized ES as my main priority. My counterpart looked to reapply BA first. Something else to note is she uses the Glyph of Hawk vs. my Glyph of Serpent Sting. The report shows us neck-n-neck in DPS, but her number of Auto Shots (and damage done) out weighted my SrS damage.
Even though she was prioritizing BA your average ES was hitting harder. Also, Glyph of Serpent Sting is more likely to increase steady shot damage than serpent sting damage, due to freeing up more GCDs. You've also got a disparity of 41 auto shots cast. If she had 5/5 IAotH and Glyph of the Hawk, that's 21% haste. With an uptime of 37% for her, that's a 7.77% increase in auto shots, right? 1.077*194~=210. It looks like she was able, through RNG or whatever, to spend a lot less time moving, which is going to skew some of the numbers you're lookingat here.
The real killer is that it looks like your pet's focus dump was accidentally turned off auto cast? WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish You have no counterpart to Gizmo's 125k bite damage, which is over a 200 dps loss.
The real killer is that it looks like your pet's focus dump was accidentally turned off auto cast? WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish You have no counterpart to Gizmo's 125k bite damage, which is over a 200 dps loss.
I noticed that also and I am not sure if it was completely left out of the combat parse upload or if it was truly "turned off." I do not think it was turned off simply because I never pay attention to that kind of thing. It is a given that my Bite is always on.
She was spec'd 3/5 IAotH with the Hawk glyph, but she does have more passive haste than me. The argument for Imp Serpent Stings is interesting though and makes wonder if dropping Trap Mastery all together was wise. Though BA has less ticks it does more damage. The spreadsheet shows me an approx. 25 DPS increase dropping down to 2/5 IAotH, taking 1/3 Imp Stings (10% dmg boost), 1/3 Trap Mastery (10% BA dmg boost) and reducing Hawk Eye to 2/3 (4 yard increased range). I have never been a big fan of not maxing out talents, but in this case it seems that there is a better balance. 2/16/53
Last edited by Mattaos : 04/23/09 at 3:43 PM.
Reason: Fixed Link
I'm working on some modeling for some of what we're discussing here. Before I do too much though, would someone mind telling me how I insert my data similar to how Soulcow did so that I'm not taking up an entire freaking page?
I'm working on some modeling for some of what we're discussing here. Before I do too much though, would someone mind telling me how I insert my data similar to how Soulcow did so that I'm not taking up an entire freaking page?
I found BA to be a very small percentage of my overall damage. My last recount showed less than 7% of my overall damage.
I found it to be a small % as well, are any hunters finding Hawk Eye to be a better investment than Trap Mastery? While a slight dps loss i find HE to be a much more useful talent than TM in Ulduar.
I found it to be a small % as well, are any hunters finding Hawk Eye to be a better investment than Trap Mastery? While a slight dps loss i find HE to be a much more useful talent than TM in Ulduar.
The total percentage done by a shot has just about nothing to do with the usage. If you do 10 million damage in a 10min fight, and a shot with a cd of 3min does 100k damage per shot, will you discard it as an unimportant shot, because it only does 3% of your total damage or will you use it with the highest priority?
I found BA to be a very small percentage of my overall damage. My last recount showed less than 7% of my overall damage.
Keep in mind that BA also increases the damage of your other attacks while its up, which is something that isn't taken into account in that 7% done by the dot itself.
The point is that Trap Master is not adding a lot of DPS - if BA is 3% of total damage, than trap mastery is an additional 0.3% damage, which is pretty poor for 3 talent points.
Thus, Hawk Eye over Trap Mastery is a barely a DPS loss even on a Patchwerk type boss, and likely to be a practical DPS upgrade on some of the add/movement fights.
The point is that Trap Master is not adding a lot of DPS - if BA is 3% of total damage, than trap mastery is an additional 0.3% damage, which is pretty poor for 3 talent points.
Thus, Hawk Eye over Trap Mastery is a barely a DPS loss even on a Patchwerk type boss, and likely to be a practical DPS upgrade on some of the add/movement fights.
True, but BA is a fixture in a SV priority rotation nonetheless. The damage modifier portion makes it a must DoT to keep refreshed. Same goes for SrS so long as Noxious Stings is taken. The question is whether it is worth assigning 1-2 points into either Imp Stings, Trap Mastery or split between both to boost the damage those talents do during an encounter? What points are able to be moved without hindering DPS, if any?
The point is that Trap Master is not adding a lot of DPS - if BA is 3% of total damage, than trap mastery is an additional 0.3% damage, which is pretty poor for 3 talent points.
Thus, Hawk Eye over Trap Mastery is a barely a DPS loss even on a Patchwerk type boss, and likely to be a practical DPS upgrade on some of the add/movement fights.
Trap mastery is 10% per point, 30% total.
From my limited review of recent fights, I'm seeing BA as ~6.5% of my damage (don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing...), so that's a little under 2% increase in DPS for 3 points.
Not stating that this necessarily changes the outcome, but it is a little better representation of the situation.
I noticed that also and I am not sure if it was completely left out of the combat parse upload or if it was truly "turned off." I do not think it was turned off simply because I never pay attention to that kind of thing. It is a given that my Bite is always on.
There have been some major bugs with pet skills turning themselves off and on without user intervention since 3.0 came out. I'm not sure if they were fixed in 3.1 but I had this issue as well so it's good to doublecheck periodically if you notice your damage is low. I had a Naxx a few months ago where my pet's claw just turned off for no reason, and my first day raiding in Ulduar my wolf's bite was also not turned on (it may have gotten somehow disabled while leveling it prior to 3.1 though so that's why I can't say if it's still broken)
Ok because of the problem with Explosive not proccing GftT I'm going to stick a 2nd point in it. Does anyone have an opinion on where to pull points out of for it? Taking out the obvious one - Hunting Party, I'm thinking of going one less on Noxious Stings. While Master Tactician 4/5 would actually be better by about 6 DPS for me according to the spreadsheet, there seems to be enough of Ulduar spent fighting adds that in the end I do a lot of DPS without the target being under SrS effect. End result I'll do more DPS going 2/3 NS rather then 4/5 MT while taking a very slight hit on my 'burn down' dps. Anyone else care to chime in with suggestions?
04/23/09, 9:22 AM
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