This may not be entirely correct: ... Viper translates 50% of your damage (after being reduced further through the aspect) into mana.
You were right, that isn't correct.
Aspect of the Viper does 3 things, which are not directly linked.
1.) It reduces the damage being dealt by the hunter by 50% (Autoshot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Serpent String tics, melee attacks, etc.)
2.) It regenerates 4% of max mana every 3 seconds.
3.) It regenerates ??% of mana per hit based off weapon speed. (I believe this is 1% per 1 second of your base weapon speed, so a 3.0 speed ranged weapon would regenerate 3% mana per shot, etc.)
Damage does not affect how much mana Viper generates, only your weapon's attack speed and the number of attacks you are making.
Sidenote: Thanks for that post Kiera, it was nice to see statistics supporting my belief of
a.) what was causing the crazy BM Hunter dps numbers
and that
b.) the pet adjustments + Readiness change should be enough to pull us back into Blizzard's target range without having to nerf Steady Shot
This may not be entirely correct: The damage reduction will have an impact on viper time, that is, it will increase the time spent in viper, but it will be very minimal. Viper translates 50% of your damage (after being reduced further through the aspect) into mana. It stands to reason that if the damage from one of the attacks in our rotation is further reduced, more time will have to be spent regenerating mana. Arcane shot is not replacing steady, it will be used in conjunction with - so for the 6-8s its on cool-down, you will be spamming steadies at reduced damage. The only thing that could alter this (and I'll do the math when I get home) is if the damage from arcane shot into our rotation compensates for the reduction in the damage from successive steady shots used between AS cool downs.
Shots fired while in Viper will give mana based on maximum mana, not damage of the shot.
Hmmm. It would certainly be nice to have ammo that procced magic damage, or maybe had a chance of applying a brief snare, or maybe did a small amount of AoE damage, gave a small amount of haste rating, or maybe even added a chance of a knockback (!!!), all instead of adding straight physical damage. The really good stuff, naturally, should be really expensive. You wouldn't want to use it every fight.
Conversely, it would be nice to have a quiver that did something other than add haste. Any standard hunter stat would be nice, especially attack power. This would make haste on other gear far more useful to Beast Mastery hunters.
Last edited by Kathucka : 12/15/08 at 5:54 PM.
Reason: Typo
The really good stuff, naturally, should be really expensive. You wouldn't want to use it every fight.
No offense, but I'm not really enthusiastic about suggesting anything that would increase our ammo costs. When the costs were first revealed for Timeless ammo, the initial consensus was that it would be specialty-use for all but the extreme high end players. Now, everyone I know who has access to it uses it constantly. Personally, I fire crafted ammo whenever I can, although the materials cost is frustrating.
If they introduce fancy "super-ammo" that costs 10g a stack and procs a poison dot or something, and it works out to be a significant dps increase, it will rapidly become a class expectation and we will be balanced around its assumption, much as happened to elixirs and then potions.
I'm pretty certain the mana on hit part of Viper is base mana, not maximum. Might just be a case of the tooltip being a lying liar. Also that would mean the addition of Arcane Shot to MM rotations might marginally increase Viper uptime due to one less 1.8sec Steady. I'm kinda struggling to wrap my head around this but... if a shot regenerates 2.8% base mana but costs 5% any increase in firing rate will up mana consumption right?
On the other hand, A Viper Chim seems a decent punch of 22% base mana on bosses with large bars. I forget what the mana costs were on the PTR but I don't think either changed. Probably worth it if AotV still permanently fubars Serpent Chim.
Edit: I hate to veer the topic fully into magical daydream land, but I can't imagine an ammo change in a patch that's got other PvP focused changes not being a cost reduction.
I'm pretty certain the mana on hit part of Viper is base mana, not maximum. Might just be a case of the tooltip being a lying liar. Also that would mean the addition of Arcane Shot to MM rotations might marginally increase Viper uptime due to one less 1.8sec Steady. I'm kinda struggling to wrap my head around this but... if a shot regenerates 2.8% base mana but costs 5% any increase in firing rate will up mana consumption right?
The arcane shot is 1.5 seconds itself because you have to include the GCD, and if you regen mana by firing steady shot during aotv (you do), you will regen mana if you replace a steady with an arcane, because they cost the same.
Your theory is correct that if a shot regenerates 2.8% base mana but costs 5% base mana then your mana consumption is increasing. But that would apply just as much to steady, and it would mean that you regenerate mana faster by not firing any steady shots during Viper. Steady shot still seems to regen more mana than it costs, which suggests that the return is based on max mana.
It should be pretty easy to test, though. Measure time to regen mana while firing steady, and without. If shooting steadies fills you faster, then it can't be costing more than it returns, and we know which formula it's based on.
Iwkyb of Dethecus is doing a statistical analysis of damage across classes in WWS reports, and what his data is showing is that the "crazy hunter damage" is largely owing to the 51/20 Readiness/BW build+ cat rake + CotW stacking:
This data largely supports what many of you have said here.
Interesting... interesting indeed. I didn't expect it to be that close. But then again I only looked at the top 10 reports.
It's sad though that the Mages try to ruin it by nitpicking on the less important parts (specific Mage DPS) when the statistical work shows a general tendency among top-DPS specs/classes. I do however believe that our loss (for BM) is beinf overestimated at 20%, though with the stacking CotW and Readiness changes already contributing a lot of DPS, it could hurt.
The sad fact likely remains that only the PTR can influence anything, and with a limited population, heavy lag and what not, chances are that there will be few real raids where everyone is wellgeared and good players, trying to do well. I imagine it will be a lot of 5-mans and some 10-mans. And those types of play favour Hunters, so overall we will look good enough, if not OP still.
There was mention of a Frenzy nerf? Didn't see anything on MMO-champ so I guess it is a rumour, but still it wouldn't surprise me.
The sad fact likely remains that only the PTR can influence anything, and with a limited population, heavy lag and what not, chances are that there will be few real raids where everyone is wellgeared and good players, trying to do well. I imagine it will be a lot of 5-mans and some 10-mans. And those types of play favour Hunters, so overall we will look good enough, if not OP still.
Hopefully Blizzard recognizes this and doesn't rush the patch before it's been tested thouroughly. And if they are balancing around 5/10 mans then I guess I will reverse my earlier mentality and lose hope in their judgement.
Scaling is our biggest problem. Buffs like BoMight, MotW, SoEarth are static and give us a head start when starting raiding, but with time and loot passing our pets only receive a little AP.
Can't they just nerf the base stats of our pets a little harder and let full BM specced pets scale of the hunter's haste and crit and so on? This way our pets would start weaker but get stronger with gear.
I am all for nerfing steady shot compared to other shots, provided we are retuned so that a well played hunter can still be topping the dps charts provided he play better than the other pure dps’ers at equal gear level. Same for mages, locks and rogues. All pure dps classes should have a few percent edge over hybrids, maybe 10% or so.
What I’d really like to see, is a retuning of the talent imp. steady shot (higher proc chance, less effect) so that depending on when it procs, optimal MM dps depends on deciding whether to spend it on an aimed/arcane shot and hope to get a new one before CS, or just keep doing steady until CS is off cooldown. My rotation today is pretty much spamming steady shot between CS cooldown – too simple for my taste. If arcane/aimed is retuned compared to steady shot and CS so that you always use them when off cooldown and steady only in between, that’s a bit better but still doesn’t require much effort. To really separate the good players from the average ones, there must be an element of decisionmaking in the “rotation”, based on something that is not predetermined. The improved steady shot buff can be excellent for that if retuned, but currently CS is so much better than other shots, and the proc chance of imp. steady shot so low, that it won’t affect the rotation. If it doesn’t proc, I keep spamming steady until CS. If it procs, even on the first steady, I do exactly the same. The only difference is that CS hits harder and cost less mana.
To really separate the good players from the average ones, there must be an element of decisionmaking in the “rotation”, based on something that is not predetermined
To change the uptime of improved steady shot, and reduce the effect, you'll probably find (depending on which shots you've specced into improving) that your rotation will still be, more or less, static. Your best returns are going to be coming from an improved Chimera shot, and with CS on a 10 second cool down, using the proc on an Arcane shot or Aimed Shot seems like a waste.
Any more uptime than once ever 10 seconds seems improbable.
I am all for nerfing steady shot compared to other shots, provided we are retuned so that a well played hunter can still be topping the dps charts provided he play better than the other pure dps’ers at equal gear level. Same for mages, locks and rogues. All pure dps classes should have a few percent edge over hybrids, maybe 10% or so.
What I’d really like to see, is a retuning of the talent imp. steady shot (higher proc chance, less effect) so that depending on when it procs, optimal MM dps depends on deciding whether to spend it on an aimed/arcane shot and hope to get a new one before CS, or just keep doing steady until CS is off cooldown. My rotation today is pretty much spamming steady shot between CS cooldown – too simple for my taste. If arcane/aimed is retuned compared to steady shot and CS so that you always use them when off cooldown and steady only in between, that’s a bit better but still doesn’t require much effort. To really separate the good players from the average ones, there must be an element of decisionmaking in the “rotation”, based on something that is not predetermined. The improved steady shot buff can be excellent for that if retuned, but currently CS is so much better than other shots, and the proc chance of imp. steady shot so low, that it won’t affect the rotation. If it doesn’t proc, I keep spamming steady until CS. If it procs, even on the first steady, I do exactly the same. The only difference is that CS hits harder and cost less mana.
It is amazing how Michael Jordan was never able to dunk from half court despite how "hard" he tried, honed his skills or was proven the a better basketball player. A little roadblock that kept him from accomplishing this feat was the Laws of Physics aka Mathematics.
Also, funny how WoW is centered around an invisible RNG to power the mechanics of this game creating certain limits as to what a player can make his character do in-game. I am not saying there not players with far less knowledge of the game (or in this case, the hunter class), but even a skilled player is not going to be able to achieve Top DPS based on his own self proclaimed prowess to play a hunter when the RNG and pure mathematics says otherwise.
The nerf to Steady Shot is more of a way to control hunter DPS than a nerf to encourage hunters to use more shots. The option to use other shots has always been there, but was never exercised because "Math" proved that was not the best way to max DPS.
I cannot truly speak for MM or SV, but for a BM on fights like Sath 25 w/ 2-3 drakes up, I do not need to add one more shot to my rotation to prove my ability to multi-task. Try keeping your pet alive (or it dying more than once) for the duration of that encounter.
On the other hand, [reply to #335] I would rather see good players separated from the other on the basis of the former being able not to stand in the fucking fire.
What i mean is that doing your basic job - in this case DPS - should not require too much focus during the event, so that people can remain concentrated on things that actually make events interesting / challenging.
If squeezing good DPS out of your character means staring all the time at your UI then, in my sense, the class is broken.
For any DPS class, most of the work is (or should be, IMHO) done beforehand, through intelligent gear and talent optimisation. What's left is more or less the ability to play a video game : push the right buttons (not too many of them - NES controllers had 2 and the games still managed to be fun) at the right time, and good positioning and longer cooldowns (trinkets and such) management.
That does not mean that mashing a single button / macro to achieve optimum DPS is the way to go, but frankly, after a while, pressing 1 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 1 or 1 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 1 instead is not what high end PVE encounters should be about.
Clearly Blizzard does feel that PvE difficulty should include more difficult rotations as an element in determining skill. In fact one of the stated reasons for nerfing steady shot was so that BM would have the option of using other shots to increase dps thus making the BM rotation more complex.
The fact is that so far through raiding as BM in TBC and WotLK PvE rotations have proven to be extremely simple, spamming a macro or just plain spamming steady shot now is not only boring but also allows players that have no business topping meters, to absolutely dominate them. The only element of playing a BM that has actually proven somewhat skill intensive is pet micro and positioning, something that I hope continues in future instances and expands into other areas of our class.
On the other hand, [reply to #335] I would rather see good players separated from the other on the basis of the former being able not to stand in the fucking fire.
What i mean is that doing your basic job - in this case DPS - should not require too much focus during the event, so that people can remain concentrated on things that actually make events interesting / challenging.
If squeezing good DPS out of your character means staring all the time at your UI then, in my sense, the class is broken.
For any DPS class, most of the work is (or should be, IMHO) done beforehand, through intelligent gear and talent optimisation. What's left is more or less the ability to play a video game : push the right buttons (not too many of them - NES controllers had 2 and the games still managed to be fun) at the right time, and good positioning and longer cooldowns (trinkets and such) management.
That does not mean that mashing a single button / macro to achieve optimum DPS is the way to go, but frankly, after a while, pressing 1 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 1 or 1 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 1 instead is not what high end PVE encounters should be about.
This is how I feel. Sure, a single button is too little, but I like MM the way it stands now. I have to pay some attention to my shots; when to cast CS, when to refresh Serpent because it dropped due to my dealing with other factors, when to control my pet and how (heal, attack, call back, etc), and the like. But most of my attention can be focused on the environment... not on playing Guitar Hero Wow Edition.
If you really think that having an uber complex shot rotation with multiple twitch reaction abilities is a good thing, just look at how annoying most people think healing is. They spend all their time staring at their raid frames and don't get to pay any attention to the fight as "an event".... and many complain constantly about it not being fun.
If you really think that having an uber complex shot rotation with multiple twitch reaction abilities is a good thing, just look at how annoying most people think healing is. They spend all their time staring at their raid frames and don't get to pay any attention to the fight as "an event".... and many complain constantly about it not being fun.
Big difference between having to devote a lot of attention to the UI for a healer and for a dps. The healer have to do it or people die. A dps'er can choose to play safe by devoting most of his attention to the surroundings and give up a few percent of his dps by running a simple rotation, or he can try to squeeze out the potential the game mechanics and RNG allows. There are also fights and phases where optimizing rotations and cooldowns is the only thing to do, there is nothing else to be aware of (Patchwerk). Even on such simple fights, there should be something more than gear to determine dps.
I can understand where these changes are coming from now firsthand.
I pulled 3.8k dps and highest damage on Patchwerk the other night and was quite happy with it. However seeing the 2nd place damage/dps so far behind me was a serious wake-up call.
My main concern right now is if these nerfs have gone too far. Blizzard nerfs with a very strong bat sometimes and then is very slow to come back and revise their changes. Granted the longtime hunter playerbase, versus the FOTM players, have taken Blizzard nerfs in the past in stride and have still made it a viable raiding class. I hope we get some good testing in PTR with solid numbers to either back up the changes or modify the changes to bring us more in line with other dps classes on the meters.
As it is right now, I think they might have gone to far in a typical knee-jerk reaction to whiners and other dps class QQ.
Nerfing hunter damage is not "knee jerk" in this instance. The devs have been worried that it is too high since BETA, and said as much on several occasions. They have been collecting data for months now ("keeping an eye on it" to use their term), and really haven't done anything (aside from small steps -- boss armor increases, windfury not affecting ranged, etc. that didn't do enough). Eventually they have to pull the trigger. Just because something happens after QQ, doesn't mean it happened because of QQ. People are always QQing. It never stops. Some nerfs (probably all of them, actually) are bound to occur after someone QQs if for no other reason that people are always QQing in the background about nearly everything.
Whether the nerfs when too far is a perfectly valid inquiry to make, and we can be pretty good at teasing that kind of thing out from new (PTR) data that we collect post-nerf. The armchair speculation about the design process isn't useful at all, and we're absolutely horrible at it anyway.
Switching gears to another point re: rotations, I see the issue as less about skill, and more about variety keeping the game a little more interesting for the player (one common thread of feedback about DKs is that people enjoy having to decide which abilities to use and when) and it makes less of their design work "wasted." Whatever work they put into new ranks of arcane shot and glyphs and set bonuses and class items and talents and so on is useless if players won't use the shot anyway. If the hunter class boils down to: use steady shot, get a scorpid/cat, and stack agi (I'm not saying that it has, mind you) then all the work they put into everything else was pointless.
In support of #335, RNG has no impact on raid enviroments DPS or total DMG. 0% Misses, 0% Crits, life totals in the millions and scriped fights make sure of it. It's all about long run and sustained effects. this beeing said, what he said makes perfect sense... Deciding when to avoid danger areas AND beeing able to compensate your loss in DPS with fast decisions should be rewarding. Beeing able to keep your pet alive, knowing when to use your trinkets/CD in the best possible way on a specific situation is important.
Let me give you guys an exemple:
Earlier this week on Grobullus the fight was going badly for us... the boss was at 1% and we have 4,5 players alive... I was dead and I see a couple of guys still running to get that poison ring away from the raid. WHAT RAID?!?!?!? they are both good palyers but on that situation they where too scripted.
I believe this was what he wanted to convey on his post, math/specs/min-maxing before raid and fast decision making during the raid.
Interesting... interesting indeed. I didn't expect it to be that close. But then again I only looked at the top 10 reports.
It's sad though that the Mages try to ruin it by nitpicking on the less important parts (specific Mage DPS) when the statistical work shows a general tendency among top-DPS specs/classes. I do however believe that our loss (for BM) is beinf overestimated at 20%, though with the stacking CotW and Readiness changes already contributing a lot of DPS, it could hurt.
The sad fact likely remains that only the PTR can influence anything, and with a limited population, heavy lag and what not, chances are that there will be few real raids where everyone is wellgeared and good players, trying to do well. I imagine it will be a lot of 5-mans and some 10-mans. And those types of play favour Hunters, so overall we will look good enough, if not OP still.
There was mention of a Frenzy nerf? Didn't see anything on MMO-champ so I guess it is a rumour, but still it wouldn't surprise me.
Viper shot procs are definately max mana based.
Here is GC's response to this thread on page 14:
I really hope GC sees this and reconsider the nerf.
The current DPS difference between hunters and other class CAN ALL be accounted for by the usage of Readiness/double BW spec + heroism + Rake.
The nerf will make hunters totally uncompetitive in end game raids as the current data suggests.
I appreciate what the OP is trying to do here. Statistics can be complicated and tends to use some very precise language. One of the best things about stats in general is the assumptions and limitations are very well laid out.
T-tests are most useful when you have two groups. The OP is correct in pairing off the various groups, but in reality we have more than two groups. A great way to use a t-test would be to compare hunter mean dps before and after the Steady Shot change. Then you are comparing two groups, trying to see if the change caused a significant difference (I would be surprised if it did not, since that was the whole point).
If you have a general hypothesis overall (in this case that hunter dps is not statistically significant than other classes), you are probably better off using an analysis of variance, often called ANOVA. Briefly, a t-test compares two means, while an ANOVA can compare the variance of multiple groups. Because there are several classes involved, we have multiple groups.
Also note that ANOVA is only good at detecting if differences exist. If you want to figure out what the differences are, you need some sort of follow up test, like a Tukey.
Please remember that WoW tends to generate very complicated data sets. What I mean is that it is difficult to predict what a given player’s dps will be. It varies enormously depending on skill, gear and the other classes (and their players) in the group. For example, you might find that below a certain gear level a spec is not competitive, but above a certain gear level they dominate. You might find that class X performs well only when specific buffs are present. I’m not confident the data are always normally distributed. All of those confounding factors can make simple statistical tests suggest trends that are not actually there. The tricky part is not in running the actual test but in deciding which points to throw out. Do you only include players who clearly know their class? Do you only throw out certain gear levels? Do you include groups with different numbers of healer or buffs? Which data you analyze is everything.
None of that is to say you should discount these data. We ask for numbers a lot, so it is awesome when players can deliver them. But you have to be very, very careful to not over-analyze them.
On the actual topic, we chose the new Steady Shot number after a great deal of research. But we also know that sometimes even the best statistical models and predictions routinely fail to represent reality, which is why we provide a PTR in order to collect additional information. Is it possible we nerfed hunter dps too much? Of course. We have some confidence in our numbers, but rarely certainty. Certainty is a conversation ender. That’s not what we are about.
Stats are never worthless. I think GC is a stats nut, to be honest.
Are statistics EVERYTHING? No, far from it. But numbers are helpful.
I can use my lvl 80 hunter on the PTR so I double checked Rake (my scorpid is only lvl 77 so I can't test the lvl 80 Scorpid Poison rank)
NOTE: The tooltip for Rake on the PTR is different than on Live. The DoT component on the PTR says "18 to 24 damage over 9 sec" whereas live is "22 to 28 damage over 9 sec"
Read through all of this and basicly im 100% in line with what my guild mate Bellin said a couple of pages ago, but I had something nagging after reading this so here it comes:
I see many here say that hunter mechanics are to simple now and some even think that some of the incoming changes look good and while I to some extent can agree that one button mashing isnt really something that require a lot of skill I just fail to realise why you can mean this?
The thing is that the current state of huntering comes 100% from something we have asked blizzard to do for a very long time, to unlink autoshots from our specials and that will by all means make it far easier to perform far better than before, perhaps not so much for the majority on these boards since im pretty sure all here was and are fairly well into theory crafting and new which macro to use for optimal performance.
But these days every hunter should be able to perform a lot better and its by far easier for casual joe to do well, before it was simply down to how good we where to avoid clipping autoshots.
If my guild is any indication on how things will be then we are in for a very rough time when these changes hit, hunters have been topping in the hunter friendly fights, but the gap have closed a lot as other DPS classes get gear and over a full 25 man clear we see several classes top the different fights, so at least for us its not a one class domination that I get from reading GC's posts about us.
I read some of the posts here saying they want more complexity in our rotations. Honestly I feel that will come bite us in the rear. Complexity is great when it doesn't lead to annoyance. I am a guild leader and a raid leader and depending on the fight it can be difficult for me to watch the raid and maintain my DPS. I don't want to constantly have to watch my UI instead of the game. I think there is already things that set "good" hunters apart from "bad" hunters, we don't need more things that are rely more on FPS/Latency then decision.
I read some of the posts here saying they want more complexity in our rotations. Honestly I feel that will come bite us in the rear. Complexity is great when it doesn't lead to annoyance. I am a guild leader and a raid leader and depending on the fight it can be difficult for me to watch the raid and maintain my DPS. I don't want to constantly have to watch my UI instead of the game. I think there is already things that set "good" hunters apart from "bad" hunters, we don't need more things that are rely more on FPS/Latency then decision.
i agree completely jinsu - the boss is what's suppose to introduce the complexity/variety to the fight - our dps suffers enough with just simple having to *move* and with my pet and fight mechanics I feel like i have plenty to keep track of throughout most boss fights. Obviously I will have to adapt to whatever blizzard invents for us next, but I'm certainly not *wishing* for more complexity.
Also, to add my 2 cents to the upcoming changes - I am so disheartened by how much patchwerk is thrown around as this standard and as a reason for hunter nerfs. In my mind that is like having everyone run a drag race, and nerfing the winner and then having everyone do the actual race, a grand prix. Yes, hunters do great at patchwerk. But there are plenty of boss fights we don't do great at. We aren't going top meters on thaddius, on gluth we run around kiting, on malygos we are getting deadzoned 1/2 the fight trying to get into the spark buff. Northrend isn't one big pathwerk fight, and I hope blizzard will show a little restraint before implementing this nerf.
I pulled 3.8k dps and highest damage on Patchwerk the other night and was quite happy with it. However seeing the 2nd place damage/dps so far behind me was a serious wake-up call.
This is perhaps symptomatic of the public perception that I just don't get tbh.
I'm 50/21 and as we all know, that means unless I die in a fight or is exceedingly lazy, I will almost always top the meters in a 5 man. The fights are just not long enough for the other classes/specs to catch up with Readiness-BW.
Yet this dominance does NOT carry over to the FEW 10/25 mans that I have run.
Using Patchwerk as an example, I pulled 3.8k and came in 3rd to 5th (can't remember but can dig out the wws if needed). Meter toppers were a lock and mage that consistently did 4.2 to 4.3k. I know the numbers aren't huge but all of us have to live with 600 to 1k latency.
Could I have done better? Definitely. I wasn't even hit capped (had around 230-ish and 0/3 FA) and only started replacing my T6. I think I could and should have put out around 4k+ if I had tried harder, getting better gems, stop skimping and using warp burgers and so on. Could I have so called blown then out of the water? I seriously doubt it. Easy raiding in wolk has made me lazy, but then that is another issue for another thread :P
It was our guilds first 25 man Naxx since the xpac and I was still in the midst of working out stuff like when to viper and when to pop the BW macro, will it be up in time for heroism at 35%, etc, etc.
BUT SO WERE THEY!
And they have much more complex rotations imo.
So what does this mean?
GC did mention earlier about the devs waiting to see if the other classes could catch up with hunters before swinging the nerf bat. It wouldn't surprise me that THEIR internal testing had showed that it was possible, maybe even expected that the other classes would catch up.
No matter how they defend it. I just can't help but feel that we are being punished for our 5 man supremacy or for other classes not figuring out how to get their rotations going, and that is what leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
12/15/08, 4:58 PM
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