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Old 12/09/08, 1:36 PM   #16
Tsook
chiefly comprised of water
 
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Tsook
Troll Hunter
 
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Originally Posted by Elendril View Post
8) All hunter pet abilities with a cooldown longer than 30 sec have been moved off the global cooldown.

Excellent change. Waiting for the GCD after Readiness, in particular, was very annoying.
It says 'pet abilities.' So it means all of the pvp-related cunning pet specials, call of the wild, rabid...

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Old 12/09/08, 1:37 PM   #17
kernall
Glass Joe
 
Troll Hunter
 
Eldre'Thalas
I have a feeling the net result of these changes is going to result in MM/Survival the more impressive spec. BM took some huge hits. Between Kindred Spirits and Serpent's Swiftness, I'm not convinced there's a significant reason to stay BM.

Who knows, we'll see what lives through the PTR though.

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Old 12/09/08, 1:38 PM   #18
Elendril
KINDOFABIGDEAL
 
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Night Elf Hunter
 
Ner'zhul
Originally Posted by Tsook View Post
It says 'pet abilities.' So it means all of the pvp-related cunning pet specials, call of the wild, rabid...
Oh, oops, I read that wrong. Hrm - weird. Still a good change, but Readiness really needs to be off the GCD too...

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Old 12/09/08, 1:39 PM   #19
Soulcow
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Hunter
 
Kazzak (EU)
Originally Posted by Elendril View Post
11) Rake and Scorpid Poison – slightly nerfed to bring them into line with other pet abilities.
12) Spirit Strike – reduced the period on the dot so it will work better with Longevity.
I really hope these changes don't make those annoying Devilsaurs by far the best pets. And I think that people reported that just fixing Longevity was not enough to make the Spirit Beast competetive.

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Old 12/09/08, 1:40 PM   #20
KraxisSingular
Banned
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Runetotem (EU)
I understand the Readiness change, and I accept it. It should happen. Same with Volley. Volley will remain a very good AoE, so we will likely use it a lot still.

My fear is Steady Shot and Serpent's Swiftness. BM Hunter damage isn't terribly great at the moment. Weakening that seems like a poor choice from my PoV. And Steady affects MM which is good but nothing stellar, and unfortunately also Survival which is just not worth a raidslot even now. I can't imagine this change will go through unless Survival gets a massive boost along the way.

Deterrance is obviously meant as a PvP boost, I'm not certain how effective it will be in that regard. 5 seconds is nice against a paintrain, but does it do enough in 2v2? I think it will be more PvE than anything. Nice for popping just before a massive boss AoE for instance.

Kindred Spirits was already an odd talent sice it did the same as a tier 3 talent. Now it is effectively the same just worse. The speedboost I have found no obvious use for yet. Can we hope for a Hunter boost in the talent now? Like 5% Hunter damage to make up for the already weak (and now weakened) personal damage? I hope so.

The pet changes are interesting and most good. I just fear that when they say slightly, it means Scorpids will remain top dog, while Cats might lose out to Devilsaurs. Spirit Beasts DoT will likely become just below the Longevity CD of the application, if not then it is pure fail in trying to fix it. I wonder if that would make them viable, and not just more viable (definately not the same). It still can't crit and the ticks aren't that powerful either.

I guess they have finally made T7 looks good to Hunters without actually improving it. Impressive.

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Old 12/09/08, 1:46 PM   #21
• Relwin
Lucas Cat
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
Similar breakdown to Elendril's, copied from my BB post:

Unless they do make exotics a big notch above normal pets 50/21 will still be better for raiding, to say nothing of 5man utility or PvP. While a number of the nerfs were expected, the Steady Shot change feels the most heavy handed. It looks a bit like nerfing Sinister Strike because rogues are too good in PvP and has ramifications larger than just BM hunter DPS. While I'm unhappy that I won't be defaulted #1 on the Patchwerk DMs after some of the proposed changes most of the nerfs were expected and warranted. Quick breakdown below:

1) Steady Shot – Change effects damage too much in PvE, especially for SV which was already miles behind.
2) Volley – reduced the damage by about 30% for all ranks. Note that AE damage from many classes is very high right now and we are looking at all of them. Volley in particular had reached the point where some hunters were using it to the exclusion of most other attacks. - Hunters using Volley in exclusion to most other attacks? On what, single targets? Who cares about trash DMs anyway.
3) Readiness – no longer affects the cooldown of Bestial Wrath. - Yeah, this is probably needed. It'll certainly make BM much less attractive for PvP, but that's only because of the huge control you gain by speccing something else. BM should still be baller for 5s.
4) Deterrence – Ok, whatever. Doesn't effect my damage so I don't care.
5) Kill Shot – Umm, sure. I guess I get 2-3 KS's per boss instead of 1-2 depending on length of fight and Readiness cooldown.
6) Kindred Spirits – Good change. This is exactly the area they needed to hit BM in and I feel just the right amount.
7) Serpent’s Swiftness – Overall this isn't a huge change since pets get WF anyway and haste has a natural tendency to balance itself out, especially with larger, on-crit ones.
8) All hunter pet abilities with a cooldown longer than 30 sec have been moved off the global cooldown. - Convenience changes are cool I guess.
9) Growl— Another whatever change.
10) Call of the Wild – Ability that encouraged group stacking when Blizzard said they wanted to move away from that idea? Yep, needed to go.
11) Rake and Scorpid Poison – Rake change means exactly nothing since it's a smaller portion of Cat damage. Scorpid Poison has been problematic for a long time and was fixed back in TBC, they just rebroke it.
12) Spirit Strike – Exotics are still useless.
Improved Tracking – now benefits damage to all included creature types as long as you are tracking one of them. You don’t have to swap around what you are tracking as much. - Another convenience change, cool I guess.
13) Aspect of the Wild – I do not remember the last time I used this Aspect.


Obviously there needs to be some numbers testing on the PTR when it comes up, but I feel the proposed changes will be softened a tad once we have some data. The main reason hunters are absurd DPS currently is that we get two sets of raid buffs, one for us and one for our pet. Raid buffs don't scale and pet scaling through gear is mediocre. We already had someone post that fluff numbers graph that shows the expected curve for different pure classes and hunters will certainly slow down a fair bit once we move beyond the first tier.


i warned you about stairs bro

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Old 12/09/08, 1:46 PM   #22
H0mez
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Nazjatar
Originally Posted by KraxisSingular View Post
I guess they have finally made T7 looks good to Hunters without actually improving it. Impressive.

How do the changes make T7 attractive? Haste still sucks, unless it makes all the BM hunters go MM.

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Old 12/09/08, 1:47 PM   #23
Shandara
Great Tiger
 
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Night Elf Hunter
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
The problem with the Steady Shot nerf is that Arcane Shot and Multi-Shot may look more useful but our mana expenditure will go up quite a bit by using them. We will probably spend more time in Viper if we add them to our rotation (not to mention our rotation becomes quite a bit more complicated), which leads to a damage loss. Whether it is a net loss remains to be seen.


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Old 12/09/08, 1:47 PM   #24
Tsook
chiefly comprised of water
 
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Tsook
Troll Hunter
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by KraxisSingular View Post
I guess they have finally made T7 looks good to Hunters without actually improving it. Impressive.
It doesn't say anything about nerfing the haste on the hunter from Serpent's Swiftness, just the haste on the pet.

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Old 12/09/08, 1:51 PM   #25
Whitemane
King Hippo
 
Orc Hunter
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
I'm gonna be seriously offended if this goes live without Glyph of Steady Shot being fixed at the same time

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Old 12/09/08, 1:52 PM   #26
kernall
Glass Joe
 
Troll Hunter
 
Eldre'Thalas
Originally Posted by Tsook View Post
It doesn't say anything about nerfing the haste on the hunter from Serpent's Swiftness, just the haste on the pet.
I suppose it depends on how you interpret what he said... When I read the original post by GC, I read it to indicate that the talent will now only affect the pet, and if this is the case, it's a pretty significant nerf.

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Old 12/09/08, 1:52 PM   #27
Har
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Hunter
 
Drenden
Originally Posted by Shandara View Post
After plugging these new values into the spreadsheet I saw a ~500 DPS loss for my 50/21/0 spec
Originally Posted by Soulcow View Post
I really hope these changes don't make those annoying Devilsaurs by far the best pets. And I think that people reported that just fixing Longevity was not enough to make the Spirit Beast competetive.
Shandara, what benefit is 50/21/0 now that readiness doesn't reset the cooldown on beastial wrath? A more fair comparison would forgo readiness and take other DPS increasing talents. Soulcow, it looks like the devilsaur and spirit beast will be equally good now... devilsaur was overshadowed by cats and scorpids and the spirit beast never had its dot working properly, however with these changes, it looks like the only non-enlarging pet that does top DPS will be the spirit beast.

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Old 12/09/08, 1:55 PM   #28
Shandara
Great Tiger
 
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Night Elf Hunter
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
Originally Posted by Har View Post
Shandara, what benefit is 50/21/0 now that readiness doesn't reset the cooldown on beastial wrath? A more fair comparison would forgo readiness and take other DPS increasing talents. Soulcow, it looks like the devilsaur and spirit beast will be equally good now... devilsaur was overshadowed by cats and scorpids and the spirit beast never had its dot working properly, however with these changes, it looks like the only non-enlarging pet that does top DPS will be the spirit beast.
You can imagine this yourself. What does Readiness do for BM after the change?
1) Reset Rapid Fire
1) Reset Kill Command
1) Reset Multi/Arcane

That's it. All 3 are minor DPS increases compared to the extra Bestial Wrath time we had.


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Old 12/09/08, 1:56 PM   #29
legomyegolas
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Malygos
Originally Posted by kernall View Post
I suppose it depends on how you interpret what he said... When I read the original post by GC, I read it to indicate that the talent will now only affect the pet, and if this is the case, it's a pretty significant nerf.
That's how I read it as well. It just seemed to fit bliz's mentality of "fixing" through nerfs.

Honestly, could it get any easier to fix hunter itemization than giving haste value to BM hunters by nerfing the talent that devalued it in the first place?

Last edited by legomyegolas : 12/09/08 at 3:31 PM.

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Old 12/09/08, 1:59 PM   #30
Har
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Hunter
 
Drenden
Originally Posted by Relwin View Post
Unless they do make exotics a big notch above normal pets 50/21 will still be better for raiding, to say nothing of 5man utility or PvP.
Originally Posted by Shandra
You can imagine this yourself. What does Readiness do for BM after the change?
1) Reset Rapid Fire
1) Reset Kill Command
1) Reset Multi/Arcane

That's it. All 3 are minor DPS increases compared to the extra Bestial Wrath time we had.
Now that readiness doesn't allow us to enrage twice in a row, what's the benefit of 50/21? Do all the talent points leading up to readiness provide as much DPS as points in improved tracking or some other DPS talent?

Shandra, that's exactly why I asked this question. Since readiness no longer gives us the bang for the buck we once got, 50/21 is no longer a desirable allocation of points. Going back to the basics (51/15/5, for example) looks like it would be a better comparison.

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