Upcoming Hunter Changes - Page 25

TrevvyTrev · 12/17/08, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Mattaos

The current set of nerfs that are hitting hunters on the PTR were determined by testing done and WWS reports shown from Patchwerk.

No. They. Weren't. Blizzard uses internal spreadsheets, internal testing done in multiple scenarios, and involves varying gear levels, including gear that we don't even have access to yet.

Patchwerk is what *we* use as a benchmark, and while Blizzard looks at those in part because we ask them too, they don't base their decisions on those alone, and not even it large part because of the various issues with them that they have pointed out.

Mattaos · 12/17/08, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

No. They. Weren't. Blizzard uses internal spreadsheets, internal testing done in multiple scenarios, and involves varying gear levels, including gear that we don't even have access to yet.

Patchwerk is what *we* use as a benchmark, and while Blizzard looks at those in part because we ask them too, they don't base their decisions on those alone, and not even it large part because of the various issues with them that they have pointed out.

Take a cold shower, cowboy and calm down.

GC has on several occasions posted that they have used Patchwerk results quite frequently for test results, in addition to (as you stated yourself above), to their own internal testing. I find it hard to see the reason to reply in such a ridiculous manner when your only point was to tell us that Patchwerk is not the sole source of Blizz's testing, which I believe we already know.

Sean · 12/17/08, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

No. They. Weren't. Blizzard uses internal spreadsheets, internal testing done in multiple scenarios, and involves varying gear levels, including gear that we don't even have access to yet.

From my personal interactions... I do not believe this for a second. I am incredibly surprised that someone buys their mouthpiece so hook, line, and sinker.

They do not at all understand their own scaling - if they did Hunters wouldn't be so blatantly broken. Hunters scale exponentially worse than any other class. We are seeing incredibly minor DPS increases from 80 blues to maxed out 80 gear while other classes are doubling and tripling their DPS numbers and starting to pass Hunters. Fury Warriors and Unholy DKs especially and the nerfs aren't even in yet. The problem is only going to be magnified in Ulduar.

Vexia · 12/17/08, 1:21 PM

Honestly, I think it's a bit silly to try to assume whether Blizzard does internal testing either way. Regardless of whether they do or not, what it comes down to is whether they're messing up, or doing this to us intentionally.

Selmarix · 12/17/08, 1:26 PM

I extracted some more graphs from the spreadsheet.
This time from naked (-1 in the graph) over Naxx 10 level gear (0 in the graph) to three times the gear level of Naxx 10 (2 in the graph). Used is a BM hunter with a cat pet and full raid buffs in the v80 spreadsheet. Weapon, ammo, quiver and parts of trinkets are not scaled (due to limits to how I can easily influence the spreadsheet at the moment).

Here are the dps curves with gear level on the x axis:

Here the scaling curves, meaning the dps gain per 1% of the gear of the Naxx 10 hunter:

Quite visible are the pet dps gains on each full hit percent and the point where the pet is no more focus starved (according to the model used in the spreadsheet).
Autoshot dominates the scaling more and more the higher in gear you get. Even at Naxx 10 level autoshot contributes nearly twice the scaling despite that its part of the total dps is considerably lower than the pet at that point (and the rake nerf is not included in this version of the spreadsheet I think).

Effinhunter · 12/17/08, 1:34 PM

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

No. They. Weren't. Blizzard uses internal spreadsheets, internal testing done in multiple scenarios, and involves varying gear levels, including gear that we don't even have access to yet.

Patchwerk is what *we* use as a benchmark, and while Blizzard looks at those in part because we ask them too, they don't base their decisions on those alone, and not even it large part because of the various issues with them that they have pointed out.

Patchwerk is merely the easiest battle for us to spot the problems. Because of Patchwerk, we knew a nerf would be coming.

Heroics. Nearly all bosses in Naxx (and all of the ones that are easily accessible to most pugs or entry level raiding guilds), Obsidium Sanctum, etc. In all of these dungeons, we were miles higher than other classes that entered raiding. Even Heroic Archavon, as big of a joke as it is, is just as much reason to nerf us. Every time I've pugged a heroic Archavon, all top dpsers were hunters, and usually by 500-1.5k dps.

It's the puggable battles that I think have really turned the tables on us. From heroics to VoA and Obsidium, the fact of the matter is that raid buffs and base mechanics resulted in us stomping every dpser out of the gate. Had the margin been closer, Blizzard might have been able to wait a month or so more, but the margin isn't close, and they have to do something. Really, it wasn't the top end hunter dpsers that was so concerning to the devs, it was the fact that extremely bad hunters were able to top meters over players and classes they shouldn't have. The rotation was too simple, and its effect was too powerful to let it go any longer.

They know we'll stick around, and in one to three months, they'll revisit us - hopefully, because scaling should start showing its ugly head. Hopefully, Ulduar will drop more gear with ap, crit and agi, rather than haste or armor pen heavy gear. That should help us stay competitive as BM and marks. The item level gear of 230 - 250 will likely tell us just how bad this nerf is going to be (not the current 200-226).

@Selmarix

Thanks for the graphs, Selm.

Is that under current live conditions or is that under the proposed nerf? I know you said the rake nerf is not included, but are the BM talent nerfs included?

Selmarix · 12/17/08, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by Effinhunter

@Selmarix

Thanks for the graphs, Selm.

Is that under current live conditions or is that under the proposed nerf? I know you said the rake nerf is not included, but are the BM talent nerfs included?

I used the version 80 of the spreadsheet, which includes some but not all the nerfs.
Best check WotLK DPS spreadsheet for details.
I think one of the 5% pet damage nerfs is missing but the steady shot nerf is in.

• Relwin · 12/17/08, 2:11 PM

OK, this thread has more than run its intended course for discussion of the initial hunter changes that were announced a bit ago.

See the two new threads for 3.0.8 stuff: 3.0.8 Hunter Math and 3.0.8 PTR Changes