The three most striking to me were the changes to Serpent Swiftness, Kindred Spirits, and Steady Shot. The removal of BW/TBW from Readiness is not actually a big concern to me - you can go with an alternative (non-readiness) spec and still be about the same on some fight lengths. On longer fights, a readiness build is actually detrimental.
From Shandara's spreadsheet
steady average: 3589.49
steady avg new: 2853.50
So about a 20% nerf to steady shot with my current gear.
The change to rake will be minimal I think. As it is, rake actually makes up only a very small portion of our dps. Any nerf here will most likely be countered by the equally small buff to kill shot and cooldowns - but it is difficult to say for sure without knowing the extent of the nerf.
With my current gear again, and hacking Shandara's lovely spreadsheet, this is the changes I was seeing (only changing serpent sting, steady shot, and kindred spirits) - set at 4 minutes:
50/21/0 (current): 5375.75
ss/ks/ss change: 4735.70
Assuming readiness change wants me to drop it, I went with a 53/18 (imp stings) build: 4711.79
So again, I think the readiness change is minimal. Especially with the nerf to pet damage over all, the benefit of BW/TBW is lowered. There should also be no question that AotH is better than AotB while under the effects of BW/TBW.
That's all just assuming current rotations, which I don't think will be the case. Since serpent sting, arcane shot, multi shot, and aimed shot are all better than steady, they will probably be a part of our rotations by default, so taking talents to maximize them makes more sense. Barring mana issues, I can see steady shot being something like a shadow priest's mind flay - simply the filler when everything else is on cooldown. Set to 4 minutes, using arcane shot and aimed shot was several dps greater than steady spamming.
MM build with 3/3 barrage and 3/3 imp arcane shot: ~4695
BM build with aimed shot talent (and arcane/aimed in rotation): ~4954
Survival: about the same because, unless I am mistaken, arcane is still tied with explosive
So for me, adjusting to better rotations and talent builds to minimize steady's role and maximize other specials, the nerf (and again, this is just including the three talents I mentioned at the start + readiness change) comes out more like this:
BM Nerf: ~8%
MM Nerf: ~6% (but BM was still overall ahead by about 250 dps)
SV Nerf: ~9%
It is quite alarming to me to think of our weakest spec getting hit the HARDEST by these changes, but that is how it appears to me currently. I don't understand why they wouldn't unlink explosive from arcane and up the damage of explosive.
Last edited by Esoth : 12/09/08 at 6:19 PM.
Reason: minor - left out a word
I keep reading posts from some of you that talk about "bringing us down to everyone else," or something similar. Who are they trying to bring us down to? Equivalently well geared mages and warlocks both are capable of doing marginally less or even damage as BM. The parses you see with a hunter or multiple hunters significantly above everyone else are from raid groups that stacked multiple call of the wild's, which skews damage in favor of the hunters.
My point is that hunters really are not overperforming compared to other pure dps classes. Rogues are the only exception, and it's obvious they need work anyway. It seems like it would be much easier to improve upon rogues and bring them up to the level of the other pure dps classes, instead of deciding to nerf the others one by one.
The steadyshot change seems to be a little over the top. I'm also wondering how this will affect AP values, surely it will go down by some.
Maybe agility will start becoming a more desirable stat for a BM hunter again.
Shamelessly quoting from Mattaos earlier in the thread:
I look at this differently. A change like this doesn't really change the effectiveness of AP, in fact, it slightly increases its value. Saying that AP is losing effectiveness is basically saying you do not plan to look to add AP above and beyond what is budgeted on gear. By not adding more AP (and certainly by not taking any away) we further gimp our main attack, Steady Shot. It seems like it is going to be necessary to add as much AP as possible to not only counter the Steady reduction, but the Kindred Spirits nerf. We need to be careful how we word things because many hunters will take comment like this and run with it declaring AP is horrible and to avoid AP. Kind of like haste just before WotLK released.
Through manipulating Shandara's spreadsheet that is more or less what I saw - the relative values of each stat stayed about the same.
Well if teh BM Hunter loss is almost equal or equal to the loss suffered by the pet, in percentages, then the relationship between the two stats stays the same. The crit from Agi also takes a dip when the AP is weakened.
I guess we have to wait and see with the higher raids how the weakened Steady scaling might send us. Right now a larger portion of our Steady Shot damage is base value, that obviously drops as we gear up. And if there might be more rep-like ammo, then it becomes even more so. Not that I don't expect new ammo, but so far there is no equivalent of Violet ammo.
Is it? Is 4/5 Frenzy sufficient, having lost 10% haste? Again, not everyone in a 10 man raid can count on Windfury.
I dunno, maybe I'm spoiled cuz I always have either an enhance shaman or a death knight with improved icy talons in my 10 man raids, but I know with the amount of haste they have, the 10% won't be as noticable. Is it a damage nerf? Of course it is, but its not nearly as bad of a nerf as Steady Shot is.
Ok, we try again. We have no rep ammo of the same value as Violet ammo given the position it held in raidprogression. So compared to last time we have taken a slight step back in value of ammo DPS contribution, and nothing is certain that there will be any new rep ammo (though I expect there to be).
Thoguh I must admit the overlooked ammo comment GC mentioned has me a little positive. Maybe ammo costs are going down (Mammoth Cutters are not exactly cheap at 3g for 200).
And about Frenzy, with 3/3 Cobra Strikes 3/5 Frenzy shuld still be enough.
Although I'd expect Steady's final scaling to end up at 0.15 (I don't see how a 0.1 scaling would allow us to remain competitive through to T9), I'd also like to see Aimed's mana cost reduced (or the glyph's effect boosted) to allow us to weave it in as part of a standard MM raiding rotation. If Steady is going to be the "B-list" shot, I'd like to be able to use A-list shots without paying too much "Viper-time" cost.
In either case, it looks like Arcane Shot is well and truly back on the table... which I suspect is exactly what Blizzard wants.
Esoth - 4 minutes, sure. But 6? 8? 10? Patchwork is a short test, and we shine on that because of the hawk-viper model.
That's true, but the longer fights tend to also involve a lot of moving or waiting for phase changes. You aren't using mana at that time, or at least not in the same quantity. Illidan was a long fight for us when we were learning it, but in several phases it was bursty, and phase changes were also a relief on mana consumption. With the passive component of Viper, fights like are actually more friendly to us because we can take advantage of times where we cannot be or should not be dpsing to regen without taking any dps loss. I can see going up to 6 minutes, but 10 minutes seems way too high. Honestly, I'm not sure what an ideal number to use would be.
And about Frenzy, with 3/3 Cobra Strikes 3/5 Frenzy shuld still be enough.
Well yes, but I'm interested in dropping the upper part of the tree entirely, and seeing what else I can get. If I need 5/5 Frenzy in there, that limits my options nastily.
Esoth - Perhaps, but in fights were you have to drop traps, misdirects and AoE...your mana can easily drop like a rock as well. And as has been pointed out, on fights like Loatheb the pet dosn't get the buff....