Upcoming Hunter Changes - Page 9

Mysto82 · 12/10/08, 4:32 AM

Originally Posted by Asaki

From what I recall, the increased armor on lvl 83 bosses is intentional. And increased armor makes us crit less.

source: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums ->

I was talking more about this topic. Lethal shots not effecting my autoshot or steady shot

Maybe it's the same and working as intended, but the other thread dosen't sound like solved.

Aern · 12/10/08, 6:24 AM

Well, at first glance the BM nerfs look fairly reasonable but when you actually see the numbers on steady shot, its outrageous. Close to 25% of our dmg is steady shot, and nerfing that by almost 30% dmg is just ridiculous. They're already destroying readiness, and pet damage, a 30% decrease in steady shot damage really isn't justifiable when you take into account that other classes are quickly catching up to our damage. I'm really hoping blizz takes a look at PTR numbers and decides to leave steady the way it is and let everything else go through.

As for speccing, Matt posted a 52/14/5 build that might be our new top BM spec. The only problem I have with it is that it took 1 point in Imp Tracking over Kindred spirits. Even after the nerfs, I don't think 1% hunter dmg is going to be better than 3% pet damage. Something like this seems better for non-exotic pets and dropping a point in gftt for exotics if devilsaurs turn out to be top dog would be worth it.

RabidCicada · 12/10/08, 6:32 AM

Is anyone else worried about the fact that a much larger percentage of our rotation will be 'not steady shot'.

The additional complication here is that using steady shot you can weave them closer together abusing the lag/latency compensation a little (start a new steady before the previous is over).

Having to squeeze more instants into the rotation dramatically screws with this. Maybe this only affects a small portion of hunters who (ab)use this mechanic but man it will hurt those who do.

Arakan · 12/10/08, 7:55 AM

Originally Posted by Asaki

From what I recall, the increased armor on lvl 83 bosses is intentional. And increased armor makes us crit less.

source: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums ->

This link gives me a maintenance message from the Blizzard forums. I am also wondering where the info of increased armor making us crit less comes from.

As far as I know increased armor only makes us crit for less, not less in total. There are however reports that physical classes crit less than our paperdoll and calculated crit implies, but as linked that discussion is held in a different topic.

bomzix · 12/10/08, 7:57 AM

I'd just like to quote this:

"These are not all of the changes we are working on for hunters, but those changes we feel are ready for testing. We hope to get these changes up on the PTR so players will have a chance to test them out and respond before they go live. "

from Ghostcrawler's post.

So we may see more changes in the future... My guess is we take a HUGE dive on DPS but gain a bag.

Zap · 12/10/08, 8:23 AM

First post here after only a week of reading so bear with me.

I've been MM since hitting 80 because of the OP Volley and Trueshot buffing my melee heavy raid but I raided as BM for a long time prior. I don't have any other exceptional hunters in my guild, and our Beast Masters haven't been putting up the numbers that caused this nerf. I could probably get solid numbers out of it had I finished experimenting with MM sooner and tried Beast out.

My dps as MM has been far above our other classes in Nax. I am only in heroic and crafted gear because i've passed eveything to the other trailing dps classes but I've been around 3100 dps over 5 minutes 3rd week in 10 man nax with no nax gear. Not sure how that compares to the godly BM dps they are trying to nerf, but I think it will pose an attractive alternative to a nerf'ed spec. I sometimes go 3 or 4 shots before firing a steadyshot(mana permitting) so I don't see much of a nerf comming my way, especially if they are buffing the instant attacks I bank on for high burst dmg. MM should definitely be reconsidered for the top raid spec. BM will be lacking in dps and raid utility(buffs) and risk losing their spot to another class if they dont have top dps anymore. Other MM hunters in my guild with comparable gear are doing about 1000dps less than me due to lack of technique, I wonder if other MM'ers had been having the same issues and missing the power of the build?

While Volley was my favorite part about and incentive for being MM, having my screen fill with 3400 crits was clearly out of control. What were they thinking?

I'm sad for the die-hard BM hunters out there, but I hope you get the opportunity to incorporate more than 1 shot into your rotation in the future and make your jobs interesting. Spamming 1 attack is too much like role'ing ele shaman which needs diversity.

The Kill Shot changes are going to give me a lot more room to play with, since I had previously been saving my 2nd Readiness to cooldwn Kill Shot at 20%, praying for enough time to land 3 critting at 13k each. Now I'll use it to refresh rapid fire and chimera as soon as possible.

I think it's time for me to post on the MM thread since nobody seems to be impressed with the spec like me yet.

-Shoot first, ask questions after you feign death-

Dantastic · 12/10/08, 8:50 AM

What really suprises me about these changes is not that theyve happened (we were clearly OP), but their arbitrary nature. On this very forum is a DPS spreadsheet for Id imagine every DPS class, and blizzard have access to every mechanic and formula in the game. My question is this: why dont they tune damage/scaling, by modelling and then testing on PTR.

As is, the method of class balance seems to be halving a coefficient here and there etc. But if damage formulae for abilities are always 10%, 20% or another nice round number, the classes can never be balanced. This is trial and error, and it results in unavoidable disparity between classes in current content, and the equally unavoidable requirement for another set of trial and error rebalancing when gear scales up again.

Surely it would be possible, and not even difficult, for bliz to make their own DPS spreadsheets for every class. They could perfectly reflect class mechanics, and so incredibly accurately predict a skilled player using the popular specs and rotation. By plugging in T7 level gear, and creating higher quality gear with a range of stats, it wouldnt be particularly complex to tune the damage and scaling of every class to a good degree of accuracy. If, say, haste scales too well for mages, and too badly for hunters, then mages could get the % attack speed increase from a point of haste reduced and hunters increased, for example.

Were in a situation where blizz has all the information on how damage is calculated, and controls all the knobs to tune that damage. I just wish instead of picking numbers out of the air to try and reduce the difference in class dps to acceptable levels, then doing it again in T8 and T9 (or not doing it and letting some classes fall badly behind), theyd use modelling to tune class DPS, so that a good mage will do slightly better damage than a slighty worse hunter, only then will it really be bring the player not the class.

Sorry if this is rather long, was considering making a thread but I dont yet have the rights.

Steelfleece · 12/10/08, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Elendril

edit: as for ways to make the 4 extra points useful, there needs to be a DPS boosting component to all three "ultimate" ferocity pet talents...I haven't tried it myself, but Lick Your Wounds seems pretty terrible compared to the other options, and certainly isn't giving a meaningful net benefit to pet DPS.

My personal perspective is that this is the way to go with making the 51 BM talent attractive - finding a way to make those 4 talent points matter rather than just boosting exotic damage, because I think one of the attractive things about being a hunter is how you can personalize your character with your pet, and having BM hunters feel pigeonholed into using a Devilsaur or whatever because it's strictly better than any other option seems lame. I've had the same white tiger pet since I was high enough level to tame Bangalash and hate feeling forced into using another pet, because I feel my pet choice is part of my character. It's an intangible, but I think player taste is enough of a reason to try to fit the extra damage into the bonus pet talent points than graft it onto the exotic pets themselves.

Another solution would be the move the 4 extra pet talent points elsewhere in the tree (they seem a weak benefit for a 51 point talent) and to simply tack on another benefit to the 51-pointer...perhaps something that improved pet scaling (to soften potential pet scaling issues down the road).

But yes, it would seem to me that directly buffing exotics is the wrong path to take.

As for the changes themselves as they are, like many others the only one that really alarms me is the Steady Shot change, but we'll see how that plays out on the PTR. I'm not liking the idea that making our other shots more valuable is going to be done by way of nerfing Steady Shot rather than improving Arcane Shot, but I guess I can hope that "other Hunter changes down the road" mentioned will help with that.

In particular, the promised "ammo" change excites me (though also slightly worries me because it could be handled very wrong).

Dantastic · 12/10/08, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

Another solution would be the move the 4 extra pet talent points elsewhere in the tree (they seem a weak benefit for a 51 point talent) and to simply tack on another benefit to the 51-pointer...perhaps something that improved pet scaling (to soften potential pet scaling issues down the road).

I agree with this. Adding pet damage to the 51 point talent seems a better path than adding it to the exotics themselves - as long as the nerfs to cats bring them in line with exotic dps, this wont affect the strength of the talent in any way, merely allow a wider choice of pets for BM hunters.

Kaladian · 12/10/08, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by urthwyte

I keep reading posts from some of you that talk about "bringing us down to everyone else," or something similar. Who are they trying to bring us down to? Equivalently well geared mages and warlocks both are capable of doing marginally less or even damage as BM. The parses you see with a hunter or multiple hunters significantly above everyone else are from raid groups that stacked multiple call of the wild's, which skews damage in favor of the hunters.

My point is that hunters really are not overperforming compared to other pure dps classes. Rogues are the only exception, and it's obvious they need work anyway. It seems like it would be much easier to improve upon rogues and bring them up to the level of the other pure dps classes, instead of deciding to nerf the others one by one.

I agree 100% with Steel without using a scorpion/stacking CotW i'm fighting tooth and nail to keep up with mages/locks/fury warriors/melee shaman. To me there are alot of fights right now that hunter do not benefit from +mods like Thaddius/May which i fall behind other dpsers. I'm not seeing these 6K dps that other are showing moe like 4000-4500 which puts me with everyone else but the rogues who need some PVE love. I will wait until more can be tested on the PTR but the SS changes seems rough for all hunters. I do not have faith with Blizzard internal test to anything correct.

Steelfleece · 12/10/08, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Metrosexuelf

I don't see it being a problem if it is equal to a Devilsaur. Everyone with the 51 point talent can get a Devilsaur. However, it is pretty absurd to have a rare exotic pet not do the same damage as a widely available exotic pet; otherwise... when would people use it? Parading around Dalaran to look cool?

Well...yes.

I for one believe that the exotic pets themselves should be cosmetic choices on-par with others, but not exceeding them, and that the power of the 51-point talent should come from the secondary benefit of the talent (for now, 4 pet talent points, so either adjusting those to be better or replacing them with something that is) rather than from the choice of beast.

But that is sort of drifting off-topic since it doesn't directly concern the current list of hunter changes.

To make this post less redundant, I will add this on: A lot of the changes here we saw coming, but the Improved Tracking change is certainly welcome, as is the Kill Shot change. I do wonder what other PvP fixes they have in store, however, because it's clear that even if the directional conditional is removed from Deterrence, it won't solve many of the PvP issues.

Eej · 12/10/08, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by RabidCicada

Is anyone else worried about the fact that a much larger percentage of our rotation will be 'not steady shot'.

No, this is what is actually making me excited about these changes. Being able to use abilities other than Steady Shot for DPS might actually justify the usage of the word "rotation" when it comes to Hunter skill usage in PvE.

The changes are a good step towards relegating Steady Shot back to its spot of "Well, all my damaging instants are on cooldown so I will use this as filler dps" versus its current spot of "How many steady shots can I possibly fit in between Chimaera/Serpent Sting?" The Kill Shot cooldown change is definitely a move in the same direction.

Originally Posted by Dantastic

Surely it would be possible, and not even difficult, for bliz to make their own DPS spreadsheets for every class. They could perfectly reflect class mechanics, and so incredibly accurately predict a skilled player using the popular specs and rotation. By plugging in T7 level gear, and creating higher quality gear with a range of stats, it wouldnt be particularly complex to tune the damage and scaling of every class to a good degree of accuracy. If, say, haste scales too well for mages, and too badly for hunters, then mages could get the % attack speed increase from a point of haste reduced and hunters increased, for example.

GC has mentioned before that they do have many internal spreadsheets that they use to theorycraft changes. Whether or not they provide accurate feedback for actual in-game changes is always up for debate.

Gaj · 12/10/08, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by bomzix

I'd just like to quote this:

"These are not all of the changes we are working on for hunters, but those changes we feel are ready for testing. We hope to get these changes up on the PTR so players will have a chance to test them out and respond before they go live. "

from Ghostcrawler's post.

So we may see more changes in the future... My guess is we take a HUGE dive on DPS but gain a bag.

Probably be able to equip an arrow with different types of damage (repairable maybe?). Hopefully Engineers will be able to provide best in slot ammo. I suspect they have a Soul Shard fix pending too otherwise Locks will (correctly) raise hell about Hunter's getting a bag slot back.

Tornn · 12/10/08, 10:42 AM

A few things:

1) Blizzard also stated they're going to buff BM hunter pets by guaranteeing a 10% damage boost from exotic pets. If you couple this with the nerfs they've given, as far as I can tell, you still net a solid benefit and the nerf is not nearly as harsh.

2) Steadyshot nerfing should not affect other hunter specs as greatly as many believe. Now, I know on the marksman forums here people continually advocate Steadyshot spam even for a MM hunter, but I find that drops my DPS significantly. Marksman hunters were meant to shot-weave, not spam like BM hunters. Overall, in terms of how I examine this I think the actual adjustments are completely fair.

As a MM hunter who used to spec BM cuz it was so Over-powered, I know the two pretty closely. I've raided and played a hunter steadily for a long time (as I'm sure many of you have) and I believe that Blizzard is trying to reward those who try to deal with complex rotations over those who spam. By balancing the different abilities more, it allows for more variety and more necessary thought (hooray for that.) As raiding as of late, my DPS is usually in-line with rogues (they beat me on any fight where I must split DPS but I beat them on any focus fire fight) but BM hunters have destroyed me. I have only been able to catch BM hunters on pet unfriendly fights...and that's the way it should be. Let me stress that again: this is the way it should be. That's supposed to be the choice you make.

BM hunters do the most damage on fights with pets, MM hunters do the most damage on fights that aren't pet friendly. The idea is balance! And I think this greatly affects that and I"m all for it. Personally, I support both nerfs and enhancements of any kind. Some may depress me, some may excite me at first...but overall, I view the ever changing gameplay of WoW part of the fun. It challenges me to learn how to exploit and exercise the different capabilities of my class.

Although yes, they do need to fix the Killshot tooltip.

Mattaos · 12/10/08, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Eej

No, this is what is actually making me excited about these changes. Being able to use abilities other than Steady Shot for DPS might actually justify the usage of the word "rotation" when it comes to Hunter skill usage in PvE.

The changes are a good step towards relegating Steady Shot back to its spot of "Well, all my damaging instants are on cooldown so I will use this as filler dps" versus its current spot of "How many steady shots can I possibly fit in between Chimaera/Serpent Sting?" The Kill Shot cooldown change is definitely a move in the same direction.

GC has mentioned before that they do have many internal spreadsheets that they use to theorycraft changes. Whether or not they provide accurate feedback for actual in-game changes is always up for debate.

From a BM viewpoint, I think your logic is on point and having more options to "rotate" shots would be nice. The main reason we do not use more abilities now (which is still an option) is mana efficiency. If the direction for regulating BM hunter (or even MM/SV) DPS begins to lead towards shaking up the current Steady Shot spam mentality, then mana cost of shots or more creative glyphs need to be addressed. Forcing a hunter to use more shots to up DPS actually forces the hunter to use AotV more often. Either way, as it is looking currently, the Steady Shot nerf is going to result in a major DPS lose for hunters...especially BM hunters.