I am NOT keen on loseing 10% of my ammo every time I die while learning a new encounter.
Doesn't work that way for thrown weapons - everything else takes durability damage when you die, but the thrown slot only takes durability damage when you throw something.
Rank 6 Scorpid Poison - 23 base Nature damage per tick, ticks every 2 sec for 10 sec, 0.014 coefficient, 1 stack max, 10 sec cooldown
Rank 6 Rake - 57 base physical damage, plus 21 base damage per tick, ticks every 3 sec for 9 sec, 0.0175 coefficient
Rank 6 Spirit Strike - 57 base Arcane damage plus 57 additional damage after 6 sec. The initial hit can crit. 0.04 coefficient. 10 sec cooldown.
And the old numbers for comparision:
Rank 6 Scorpid Poison - 20 base Nature damage per tick, ticks every 2 sec for 10 sec, 0.04 coefficient, 1 stack max
Rank 6 Rake - 29 base physical damage, plus 21 base damage per tick, ticks every 3 sec for 9 sec, 0.06 coefficient
Rank 6 Spirit Strike - 50 base Arcane damage, plus 50 damage per tick, ticks every 6 sec for 6 sec (it ticks twice), 0.049 coefficient
I swear, this patch is gonna give me bi-polar disorder with all the back-and-forth, and from the sound of this post, we're still fairly far out from seeing it live. :/
I did a rough calculation using 6k AP, and got ~53 dps for scorpid poison, ~60 dps for rake, and ~95 dps for spirit strike. This is before the various damage talents BM has available.
If they don't touch devilsaurs, I'm lead to believe that spirit beasts and devilsaurs will end up as the highest dps pets for BM, and wasps may actually beat out cats for non-BM.
I did a rough calculation using 6k AP, and got ~53 dps for scorpid poison, ~60 dps for rake, and ~95 dps for spirit strike. This is before the various damage talents BM has available.
If they don't touch devilsaurs, I'm lead to believe that spirit beasts and devilsaurs will end up as the highest dps pets for BM, and wasps may actually beat out cats for non-BM.
The numbers for the spirit strike are quite awesome. Wonder how this will scale when you factor in raid buffs. Just makes getting getting an elusive pet even more mandatory. Thankfully cats are still retaining a good amount of DPS.
yeah, they buffed spirit strike quite a bit, but is it even worth it to go that far into bm? I think it may have to be a pretty decent sized nerf to ES before it is worth it.
Are those numbers assuming Spirit Strike still uses pet spell power instead of straight pet AP? I'm getting considerably different numbers given that they haven't changed that..
Each time an ability does damage you get the full pet AP scaling. So the more "ticks" of damage the better it is on live, but now they've realised this and now the scaling is averaged over the "ticks" (I only asked for this since the start of BETA).
i.e. Rake does 4 "ticks" of damage (initial, plus 3 DoTs) so that is 7%/4 or 0.0175. This matches the new scaling.
Also note that if you apply the same logic to Scorpid Poison, you come to 7% (5 ticks during a cast so 5*0.014=7%) scaling rather than the normal ~4.3% magic scaling. Ditto with Spirit Strike, except for the larger scaling (due to the fact it is from an exotic pet?). I wonder if they'll use 7% scaling for all abilities now and simply average them out.
I hope they patch this on the PTR soon so we can do some accurate theorycrafting.
Originally Posted by Skillstep
Why is it that other classes feel whole and simple and fluid yet hunter feels like directing a symphony as a paraplegic midget with tourettes?
I swear, this patch is gonna give me bi-polar disorder with all the back-and-forth, and from the sound of this post, we're still fairly far out from seeing it live. :/
Seriously. I'm gonna go insane. I think I prefer the patches where they straight-out nerf us...
Can someone answer this as I havnt seen a thread that throws out a "ballpark" figure.
Assuming all t7, and you know the rest, plus cat lets say. What is the loss of actual DPS? I know many of you are on the PTR and by now should have enough "hard" data to come up with a +/- DPS Avg. I mean negitive DPS is what is expected in the BM builds so thats where my question points to. Ive heard 1.5k to 2k loss in DPS. Is this even close or not? Ive done the old school spec and re-spec and spec again method to come up with my current 52/19/0 build, but I personally feel that the 1.5k to 2k DPS loss is high and that there are thought out point structuring concepts and well as the likely ammo restructuring that can make this "nerf" less painful as everyone in making it out to be. Ballpark and not held to by any means, please someone from extensive PTR time. DPS loss in BM builds??
edit: If they want all 3 specs to be competitive, IMO they either need to remove some of the BM nerfs or Explosive Shot is in for a pretty hardy "toning down". Pushing everyone toward MM is cool, knocking everyone down to BM is less desirable.
I wonder if they'll use 7% scaling for all abilities now and simply average them out.
Well, then it would be the death of any pure DPS pets. Pets like Core Hounds and Wasps would perform better given that they scale as well but have some extra bonus in form of a CoT effect and a minor armor debuff.
While I want Wasps to be fixed (my plan to raid with one as MM), I don't want it to be better if there is going to be a Druid putting up FF. The utility it provides should count against it slightly.
This is silly... If what you wonder about is true. Cats go from OP to UP. I like my cat and I want my pets to be interchangeable and valuable choices given the situations of raidsetup.
Oh, and a guy made a projection, apparently Raptors beat out Cats pretty handedly, if the scalings are all AP based. But the good thing is that the four pets (Cats, SBs, T-rex and Raptors) are vithin about 5% of each other, making the difference ok. But this assumes Trauma/Mangle I think, without it Cats and Raptors are just not in the running at all.
edit: If they want all 3 specs to be competitive, IMO they either need to remove some of the BM nerfs or Explosive Shot is in for a pretty hardy "toning down". Pushing everyone toward MM is cool, knocking everyone down to BM is less desirable.
8%-10% is what I was figuring would be a close guess. I know PTR is limited in relationship to live, but I knew 2k decrease was probably more of an "I pissed that I have to actually have skills to be viable in raids and a hunter" number.
I here that on here more then I think we should. Hunters wont be viable...are you serious?? I guess if you simply want to talk on the celly and watch the telly while you mash 1111111 for a few hours, sure. But be a gamer, have some skill. MD alone is "viable" reason to have a hunter in a raid group. How about kitting Skellys around while FTing CC in Naxx. 700-900 less dps, whats the hubbub..??
MD alone is "viable" reason to have a hunter in a raid group. How about kitting Skellys around while FTing CC in Naxx. 700-900 less dps, whats the hubbub..??
Nothing other than DPS is a reason to bring a hunter to Naxx. Many other classes can do the same thing. So we are interchangeable in that respect, which is fine actually. As long as our DPS is competitive to these other classes, we shouldn't have any issues. That is going to be the real 'test' of 3.0.8.
Of course, it all changes again in 3.1 based on what GC says, so essentially we are back in a holding pattern. I'm fine with the 3.0.8 changes. Hunters have earned a spot in raids, losing some DPS won't really change that.
Well, then it would be the death of any pure DPS pets. Pets like Core Hounds and Wasps would perform better given that they scale as well but have some extra bonus in form of a CoT effect and a minor armor debuff.
Well, remember that rake gains when the bleed debuff is up on the target. So its now raid-situational...of course, so are Raptors, the pet I'd like to bring (and it looks like they may well be competitive, yay)
Seriously. I'm gonna go insane. I think I prefer the patches where they straight-out nerf us...
The more this patch delays and doesn't hit Live, the more I think most of the PTR changes were damage control for the other classes crying about our dps: "Blizz to crybabies - Look we are nerfing them, now shut-up and keep progressing you noobs." As we all know, other classes are starting to get up there in dps as they get more gear...
We can only hope they tone down the changes (except the readiness/BW thing and the imbalance with different types of pets).
I wouldn't completely rule it out, but I do believe that they're testing the 3.0.8 changes along with some of their designs for 3.1 changes. By that time it might all make sense. GC in a roundabout way admitted that they aren't testing on the builds we have access to. They're just pushing out old builds for us to play with.
I think everyone will wind up homogenized, but it'll probably take until the Icecrown patch (or later) for Blizz to hit that design goal.
As I dont agree that "nothing" other then DPS is a reason to bring a hunter to Naxx. I will agree that it is a vauable and needed component to the instance. I mean that is the hunter class, DPS.
But.... For me, Ill take a nerfed hunter who knows positioning, environment, stratagies, bosses and spacing in a raid over a DPS class on steroids every time. If I cant get my pimped out, 6k dps nerf proff class to rotate around Thaddius or not rotate correctly, then he is not "viable". Im not arguing the DPS being a valuable class in raids, thats self evident. What I am saying is that you would think this "nerf" or as I like to call it "balancing" of the Hunter class is the end of a class in WOW according to most threads Ive read. Yes 3.1 will restructure and so will 3.1.1, 3.1.2 at infinitum.. From now until the last days of WOW. It will never stay static, ever. All you OCDers, get use to change. Just master your class and you will always and forever be viable.
My point wasn't that Hunters don't bring value, just at this point in the game, we don't bring any tools to a raid that are essential or can't be covered by other classes. Again, this is intentional by Blizz.
As for Hunters screaming 'end of days'. It happens every time there is some nerf. My guess is that many Hunters either haven't yet topped their meters or really don't know how too. So they are seeing a nerf without every feeling as OP as people said they were. I'm personally happy to move away from the 1 button macro, I don't think it added anything to our class.
Borrowing the math used in the spreadsheet, with some adjusted modifiers to make it a bit more generic. Assumptions:
3765 PetAP
Modifiers: 15% crit/miss/dodge, 25% mood, 10% ferocity, 9% spiked collar, 2% blood frenzy, 3% sanc aura, 30% mangle
Total mod: 235% (Please note that I'm leaving out some Unleashed Fury, Kindred Spirits, and T7-2pc to make it a bit more generic. Any further modifiers will increase the difference between live and post-patch damage).
Live
Initial: (29 + 3765*.06)*2.35=687 (note the 6% scaling, not 7% - I'm just going by the formula in the spreadsheet)
DoT: (21 + 3765*.07)*2.35=669
Total Damage (no longevity): 687+669*3 = 2694
DPS (no longevity): 269.4
Post-Patch
Initial: (29 + 3765*.0175)*2.35=223
Dot: (21 + 3765*.0175)*2.35=204
Total (no longevity): 223+204*3=835
DPS (no longevity): 83.5
That's a pretty hefty nerf, but it does indeed bring it inline with other pets. The damage appears to be comparable to a wasp's sting.
Originally Posted by Florrie
What flavour of hipster racism am i missing today?
I think we are both in agreement, just getting lost in the web of uncertainty. Bottom line, IMO, Hunters are a unique class with more "challenges" then most. We have always delt with less and achieved more. Im sure the clothies out there would beg to differ, but in reality the intricasies of producing high DPS while managing a pet (micro managing if you want to be good) and pulling no aggro, while managing mana consumption all this with no healing ability, mana regen (sands viper 50% reduction in dps, or a suv build) complicated escaping abilities, basically trapping with lenghty CD and FD maybe, maybe not.
So, if the Blizz think tank is now bending under the other classes, due to their dislike of the high DPS out put of a DPS only and ranged at that class, then shame on them. But, we will overcome and overachieve because we can. Again, we the hunter IMO are exactly what MMO is supposed to be. Difficult, challenging, and gamer skill specific. Nerf me baby go ahead. Tomorrow there will be a new complaint among lesser classes. It will read...."Hey, I thought you were nerfing the Hunter"
You are mistaken, in my opinion. No class is capable to produce more with less skill in the game. BM makes it so all you need are 2 macros, 1 for CDs/Trinkets/Racials and another for SS. It that simple.
Can you play the class better and produce more? yes, even as a BM. These boards invite smart, skillfull participation, and you will genarly get those that really go into the finer points of the class.
Now, go to the ptr forums, or just the regular WoW Hunter forums, and you will see an infinite amount of crying and or complaining, DESPITE the fact that if the ptr went live today, every one could go SV and produce HIGHER dps numbers than before. Want to know what gives? Button pushing, timing, and doing things out of control of macros; in short: knowledge and skill.
There are a lot of average players that roll BM and look like great players. That is why we get nerfed. Heck, want to see how easy things are? Here is an example:
Patchwerk, the dps standard for hunters. Killed on 1/6/09
Number 1 dps : BM hunter, 1212212 total damage, 4753 dps. His Steady shots represented 25% of his damage or 310271. Lets say the pizza guy showed up, and he could not find his wallet, leaves his pc as soon as the fight starts, and can not fire a single SS? His total damage would be 910141, lands him 6th in dps. Take away his Serpent sting, now he is at 7th, take away his other skills, and he is at 10th place. Send pet in, auto attack, and you get to still do top ten dps. There is not other class in the game that has that ability.
This is why we get nerfed. And this is why we will continue to get nerfed, and for the same reason, that is why trap dancing might stick around for a bit, it takes more effort, skill, timing, smarts, knowledge than anything BM has to offer for the average player
You are mistaken, in my opinion. No class is capable to produce more with less skill in the game. BM makes it so all you need are 2 macros, 1 for CDs/Trinkets/Racials and another for SS. It that simple.
Can you play the class better and produce more? yes, even as a BM. These boards invite smart, skillfull participation, and you will genarly get those that really go into the finer points of the class.
Now, go to the ptr forums, or just the regular WoW Hunter forums, and you will see an infinite amount of crying and or complaining, DESPITE the fact that if the ptr went live today, every one could go SV and produce HIGHER dps numbers than before. Want to know what gives? Button pushing, timing, and doing things out of control of macros; in short: knowledge and skill.
There are a lot of average players that roll BM and look like great players. That is why we get nerfed. Heck, want to see how easy things are? Here is an example:
Patchwerk, the dps standard for hunters. Killed on 1/6/09
Number 1 dps : BM hunter, 1212212 total damage, 4753 dps. His Steady shots represented 25% of his damage or 310271. Lets say the pizza guy showed up, and he could not find his wallet, leaves his pc as soon as the fight starts, and can not fire a single SS? His total damage would be 910141, lands him 6th in dps. Take away his Serpent sting, now he is at 7th, take away his other skills, and he is at 10th place. Send pet in, auto attack, and you get to still do top ten dps. There is not other class in the game that has that ability.
This is why we get nerfed. And this is why we will continue to get nerfed, and for the same reason, that is why trap dancing might stick around for a bit, it takes more effort, skill, timing, smarts, knowledge than anything BM has to offer for the average player
That's a lot of text to essentially say "l2play". The hardest part of WoW has never been the DPS rotations (nor should it be in my opinion) the difficulty is in creating a viable spec, gearing for that spec, understanding your class role, paying attention during encounters so that you 1) don't die and 2) contribute to the raid's success.
Oh, and Patchwerk is NOT a standard for anything other than functioning as a DPS check for the raid any more than a target dummy would be a standard by which to determine if a class is okay.
01/06/09, 7:25 PM
