Can you tell me please what rotation do you use for SV ?
Serpent Sting -> Explosiveshot -> Steady -> ?
While that is interesting from a maximising DPS perspective, I'm not sure it's relevant to the exercise. The point was less about absolute damage and more about pet selection. Shot rotation will have no effect on that as long as the rotation was consistent across all pets.
Can you tell me please what rotation do you use for SV ?
Serpent Sting -> Explosiveshot -> Steady -> ?
My survival spec uses Aimed Shot as well. So Explosive Shot > Aimed Shot > Steady Shot while Explosive/Aimed Shot are on cooldown. And of course it keeps Serpent Sting up at all times.
It should also be noted I didn't use specs that gave me the best possible dps within the spreadsheet(although they're all very close to that.) I used numbers from what I feel are the "best" raiding specs for each tree while wearing best-in-slot gear.
And yes, the main purpose of my post is to illustrate the difference in damage between each type of pet for each spec. However, it also illustrates the difference in damage between each spec. Personally I think Explosive Shot might need to be nerfed just a little bit more than what it is on the PTR. I'd also like to see Spirit Beasts about 50 dps closer to Devilsaurs damage-wise. Blizzard is doing a pretty good job balancing the pets right now though.
There's some discussion of whether or not to prioritize Serpent Sting and I think consensus is leaning towards the idea that the bonus from Noxious Stings doesn't justify delaying an Explosive Shot or Kill Shot.
There's some discussion of whether or not to prioritize Serpent Sting and I think consensus is leaning towards the idea that the bonus from Noxious Stings doesn't justify delaying an Explosive Shot or Kill Shot.
There are a couple of ways of interpreting this scenario. If explosive shot is off cooldown as serpent sting fades, you are basically asking if the DPCT of serpent sting and the 3% boost to a single explosive will be worth pushing a 6 second rotation back 1.5 seconds (GCD) - a 25% personal (non-pet) penalty. I can't imagine this ever being worthwhile. On the other hand, you could view this as: serpent sting fell off and I've got just under 1.5 seconds before explosive is back off cooldown. This is much more complicated, but I imagine in most situations it would be practical to use a GCD to refresh serpent and then shoot explosive? I'm sure there is a certain time in which it would be more DPS to wait, cast explosive, and then refresh serpent, but judging this number (which is going to be less than 1.5 seconds) in the middle of combat would be impractical.
Originally Posted by Florrie
What flavour of hipster racism am i missing today?
Personally I think Explosive Shot might need to be nerfed just a little bit more than what it is on the PTR.
As I understand it, it already has been. The GC posted numbers are less than what's currently on the PTR and the latest spreadsheet is using those lower numbers.
As I understand it, it already has been. The GC posted numbers are less than what's currently on the PTR and the latest spreadsheet is using those lower numbers.
I think he's saying it could probably be lowered even more from the 16% AP + 428 it was nerfed to, from the 18% + 476 it used to be.
Nothing will change in regards to LnL, all this does is make it impossible to force more procs with resourcefulness to bring trap CD below standard 30s. That'd be a fairly crap talent to pick anyway I believe. You still want to force LnL as much as possible, which means you want to keep trap dancing. All this does is make the serpent sting basically unable to proc LnL as long as you are trap dancing.
Basically, there are 2 consequences of the LnL CD which, from previous GC comments, seem entirely unintended and undesired.
1) You need a mod to play Survival at even just a mediocre level (to track the LnL CD)
2) Trap dancing is MANDATORY because Serpent sting won't proc LnL enough to matter
I recall GC saying something to the effect that trap dancing was unintended behavior, and I believe they are attempting to make Survival playable w/o dancing with the new LnL CD, but the end result is to force trap dancing. Also, having played Survival a few weeks, it'll mess with the natural flow of trap dancing. Almost all of the "hard" encounters make it easy to put traps down for adds or the boss, but having to look for some extra mod timer bar to get permission to use the trap is going to be annoying.
Basically, there are 2 consequences of the LnL CD which, from previous GC comments, seem entirely unintended and undesired.
1) You need a mod to play Survival at even just a mediocre level (to track the LnL CD)
2) Trap dancing is MANDATORY because Serpent sting won't proc LnL enough to matter
I recall GC saying something to the effect that trap dancing was unintended behavior, and I believe they are attempting to make Survival playable w/o dancing with the new LnL CD, but the end result is to force trap dancing. Also, having played Survival a few weeks, it'll mess with the natural flow of trap dancing. Almost all of the "hard" encounters make it easy to put traps down for adds or the boss, but having to look for some extra mod timer bar to get permission to use the trap is going to be annoying.
Why would you need an extra timer?? It's fairly safe to assume that in the short duration between your traps are off CD and you place the next one, serpent sting will not proc LnL. Assuming that, you don't need any new mod to tell you when LnL is off CD. It'll be off CD as soon as your traps are off CD?
Why would you need an extra timer?? It's fairly safe to assume that in the short duration between your traps are off CD and you place the next one, serpent sting will not proc LnL. Assuming that, you don't need any new mod to tell you when LnL is off CD. It'll be off CD as soon as your traps are off CD?
LnL only procs when the trap is sprung, not when the trap is set... that being the essence of the problem (talent and gear-based alterations to the base trap cooldown notwithstanding).
IMO, though, it's not worth getting too excited about. The 30-second cooldown is, by all reasonable analyses, a very inelegant and ineffective solution. I'd be surprised (and dismayed) if it made it past the current PTR iteration.
LnL only procs when the trap is sprung, not when the trap is set... that being the essence of the problem (talent and gear-based alterations to the base trap cooldown notwithstanding).
IMO, though, it's not worth getting too excited about. The 30-second cooldown is, by all reasonable analyses, a very inelegant and ineffective solution. I'd be surprised (and dismayed) if it made it past the current PTR iteration.
I am not sure what the big deal about trap dancing is. The way i look at it,its a choice, since SV is doing superior damage (using the spread sheet, and by feedback of those in the PTR), with or without it. You can try to stay in sniper range or trap dance.
Furthermore, if blizz really wanted to "fix it", they could easily make it so LnL procs off only freezing/frost trap (which I think was the original idea behind LnL) or make it so sniper training gives an even greater benefit to ES.
Trap dancing may seem or feel cheap to some, but if you think about it, it requires timing, and some planning, being maximized thru each player's skill level.
I am not sure what the big deal about trap dancing is. The way i look at it,its a choice, since SV is doing superior damage (using the spread sheet, and by feedback of those in the PTR), with or without it. You can try to stay in sniper range or trap dance.
Well, Sniper's just as flaky as trap dancing (not least of all because of the just-a-little-too-high minimum range and zero user feedback). However, Blizzard has a record of dissatisfaction with unorthodox use of game mechanics, not least because they tend to bifurcate performance curves. If, for instance, SV is balanced without trap-dancing, then is it OP with trap-dancing? Or if they balance PvE DPS around trap-dancing, will that force a lot of players into doing something they find 'not fun'?
In either case, I can't help but feel that they've painted themselves into a corner somewhat with LnL's twofold proc conditions. They're clearly not happy with chain-procs (be it from trap + serpent in PvE, dual-trapping in PvP, or even, judging by the cooldown, trap-cooldown reduction abilities). I hope that in the next PTR push, we'll see the cooldown scrapped in favor of a more considered pass at 'solving' the LnL problem... until then, TBH, I'm going to close my eyes until the cooldown goes away
@Sebudai: Is it possible to test Raptor with the assumption that Savage Rend is not in auto - cast but is macroed to be fired with Cobra Strikes, thus ensuring a Savagery proc? Given the removal of GCD on pet's abilities longer that 30 secs this is now possilbe.
So modeling in loss of time (waiting for CS), a result of 30 secs of Savagery every 45 secs is possible (assuming 3/3 Longevity). Is there any way to model this into the spreadsheet? I suspect that Raptor's dps will rise considerably.
Can you tell me please what rotation do you use for SV ?
Serpent Sting -> Explosiveshot -> Steady -> ?
I never, ever place a SrS before an ES; the extra 3% damage from Noxious Stings doesn't make up enough damage to clip your ES another 1.5s later into your rotation. I use:
ES -> Aimed -> SrS -> SS
Then use ES every time that it is up, with an aimed thrown in instead of an SS whenever it's cooldown is up. I only refresh SrS when both ES and Aimed are on cooldown.
Last edited by Fierra : 01/13/09 at 8:32 AM.
Reason: Same info as Sebudai, but I'll leave it here anyway as my statement of support against clipping ES for SrS
Glyph of Mend Pet: Now gives +20 Happiness per tick in addition to the 20 on initial application.
Practically useless, if you want your pet to regain happiness before a fight, quickly spamming mend pet is still the best option and it will not get to tick when you do that.
LnL only procs when the trap is sprung, not when the trap is set... that being the essence of the problem (talent and gear-based alterations to the base trap cooldown notwithstanding).
IMO, though, it's not worth getting too excited about. The 30-second cooldown is, by all reasonable analyses, a very inelegant and ineffective solution. I'd be surprised (and dismayed) if it made it past the current PTR iteration.
I'm again assuming something of course, that the trap will go off almost instantly after setting it.
Practically useless, if you want your pet to regain happiness before a fight, quickly spamming mend pet is still the best option and it will not get to tick when you do that.
But very useful in case your pet happens to die and you don't want to waste a lot of time and mana on it to get it back to full happiness quickly while being in combat with a boss.
Why would you need an extra timer?? It's fairly safe to assume that in the short duration between your traps are off CD and you place the next one, serpent sting will not proc LnL. Assuming that, you don't need any new mod to tell you when LnL is off CD. It'll be off CD as soon as your traps are off CD?
Think of a boss with phases. Phase 2 you can't trap for some reason (busy dancing, boss is in the air, etc...), but you might get a proc from serpent sting during these phases. Now when phase 3 starts you want to make sure the internal CD is up before you trap dance again. Right?
@Sebudai: Is it possible to test Raptor with the assumption that Savage Rend is not in auto - cast but is macroed to be fired with Cobra Strikes, thus ensuring a Savagery proc? Given the removal of GCD on pet's abilities longer that 30 secs this is now possilbe.
So modeling in loss of time (waiting for CS), a result of 30 secs of Savagery every 45 secs is possible (assuming 3/3 Longevity). Is there any way to model this into the spreadsheet? I suspect that Raptor's dps will rise considerably.
It's probably possible to model that in the spreadsheet, but I don't know how to do it. Shandara might, or you could try to model it by hand.
Posted by GC in response to Seb's and Neruse's spreadsheet data:
I don't know know why the EJ hunter numbers you cited don't match ours. It would take a great deal of time for us to dig through all the numbers that we are presented with to understand where the disagreements occur. In this case I suspect it is because Explosive Shot does less damage now than it does on the PTR, but I don't know. Survival is a miniscule percentage of total hunters out there, so we really won't mind them getting a significant bump, but it isn't our intent that they are far and away the highest dps hunter spec (BM shouldn't be either).
We do our tests under a variety of conditions, and fully raid buffed is certainly one of them.
But very useful in case your pet happens to die and you don't want to waste a lot of time and mana on it to get it back to full happiness quickly while being in combat with a boss.
In combat your pet always has capped happiness so if he dies once he will still be happy, and if your pet dies more than once per 20 seconds then maybe its a wrong fight to use pet in (at least none of the current fights do that, except maybe heigan depending on how your tank moves him).
Thanks for pointing that post out. Interesting to read how ES has an even lower damage output in the future than what the PTR has. Makes a lot of our efforts diminished, and one has to wonder if they are trying to get more players into the SV tree for one reason or another.
Weirdest part was reading "but it isn't our intent that they are far and away the highest dps hunter spec (BM shouldn't be either)." It makes me wonder if they mean everyone should be close (what i get from most of his posts), or that MM should be ahead a bit (which seems to be blizz preference since the game launched)
Thanks for pointing that post out. Interesting to read how ES has an even lower damage output in the future than what the PTR has. Makes a lot of our efforts diminished, and one has to wonder if they are trying to get more players into the SV tree for one reason or another.
Weirdest part was reading "but it isn't our intent that they are far and away the highest dps hunter spec (BM shouldn't be either)." It makes me wonder if they mean everyone should be close (what i get from most of his posts), or that MM should be ahead a bit (which seems to be blizz preference since the game launched)
Looking over his posts while 3.0.8 has been on the PTR, it's definitely the former. The aim is for all three specs to have comparable DPS, so people who may not being so dependant on their pet can feel like they're able to spec alternately without gimping their raids.
In our most recent testing BM and MM were neck and neck and Survival was probably a little high. We might tone down Explosive Shot before it goes out the door.
01/12/09, 9:01 PM
