Fixing serpent sting to change dynamically with AP is reasonable. Changing Chim-Serp to always assume 15 second serpent is a significant nerf. Raidbuffed, the dps difference between 15s Chim-Serp and 21s Chim-Serp is in the neighborhood of 100 dps. It also makes the glyph completely worthless for marks.
It's certainly possible that the glyph isn't supposed to be useful for Marks. There are other glyphs that aren't useful for some specs. It's also possible that it's not supposed to be a big dps increase. It's not a direct dps increase for BM or SV -- it saves a GCD after a certain period of time and increases the shot's efficiency, but that's it. It could be that they don't want a large disparity between the "all purpose" glyphs -- i.e., the ones not linked to specific talents in a tree -- so that they provide huge benefits to some specs and minor ones to the others.
There's nothing preventing them from introducing a glyph of Chimera Shot later, which would be a more direct and transparent way to increase Chimera damage anyhow.
EDIT: I'm just playing Devil's Advocate and suggesting a possible explanation. I'm not advocating a nerf to the glyph.
Well, I would say the Steady Shot is the big 'common' glyph, while BW for instance is a very specific glyph. And Serpent would fall nicely in between, being useable by all three specs, but just better for one spec (MM), that's not unseen nor even uncommon by the very nature of glyphs.
It is however not entirely unreasonable to assume it is intended to be changed now. But it is unneeded and gives a pretty hefty nerf, so we basically have but one spec left... again. They have previously left unintended features they really didn't like in due to fixing them would hurt the given class/spec. I would say this one would fall under that list. Our glyphs are already fairly bad outside the BW glyph. Our minors pretty much suck save one, and now another valuable glyph falls (lets face it, while the Steady glyph remains our best, it is quite a bit weaker now). Maybe this is preperatory to new, better glyphs in 3.1? That would seem like a logical time to introduce new glyphs due to new content, time spent digesting feedback on glyphs and the overall Hunter restructuring thingy. I just hope this is a bug, but I honestly doubt it is.
So I guess it might be time to look for that TSA glyph?
Why do you see this fix as a nerf? Because it isn't inadvertantly inflating your CS damage? The purpose of the glyph, as Trev indicated, is to add a level of mana efficiency to the shot and to indirectly boost DPS by dedicating the cool down to another shot. The shot should read what level of sting is on the target and then calculate the added damage based on that. It should not read the total damage done by the sting and then calculate the damage. That is double dipping and gives an edge to an ability unattainable by any other spec.
Why do you see this fix as a nerf? Because it isn't inadvertantly inflating your CS damage? The purpose of the glyph, as Trev indicated, is to add a level of mana efficiency to the shot and to indirectly boost DPS by dedicating the cool down to another shot. The shot should read what level of sting is on the target and then calculate the added damage based on that. It should not read the total damage done by the sting and then calculate the damage. That is double dipping and gives an edge to an ability unattainable by any other spec.
Whether you feel Chimera Shot should or should not check Serpent's Sting total damage is irrelevant. The Serpent Sting part of Chimera Shot's tooltip reads "40% of damage", not "damage based on rank used".
Glyph of Serpent Sting increases damage dealt by Serpent Sting. If Chimera Shot's damage effect does not take this into consideration, Chimera Shot is bugged (tooltip/behavior mismatch).
One could argue whether or not Glyph of Serpent Sting should affect total damage of the Sting, or only decrease the rate of which it's needed to be refreshed. Both sides can fairly easily be justified, and a decision simply has to be made by the developers. Unless you have a developer source to back up your statement regarding what the purpose of the Glyph is (in comparison to what you feel it should be), I don't see any reason for arguing this back and forth any more than it already has been.
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
Currently on the PTR frost trap is not linked to LnL cd. I have tested frost trap on Sarth and it triggers LnL I assume even though bosses are immune to its affect the trap being triggered is enough for it to proc LnL. Trap dancing may still be alive.
One could argue whether or not Glyph of Serpent Sting should affect total damage of the Sting, or only decrease the rate of which it's needed to be refreshed. Both sides can fairly easily be justified, and a decision simply has to be made by the developers.
This is the point that I was trying to make. Either it was originally a bug and has been fixed because Blizz doesn't want MM Hunters double dipping. Or, it is currently a bug on the PTR and will be reverted. You could just as easily argue that CS is doing too much damage and should, in fact, add 40% of the actual damage done over the 10s and not 40% of the total damage of the sting. The tool tip is, at best, confusing and this is all a matter of semantics that will be adjusted by Blizz as they see fit.
I would ask this: Can you name a single glyph that boosts DPS through multiple sources? If you can, then that will be what is needed to get GC or anyone else to confirm the reasoning behind this.
This is the point that I was trying to make. Either it was originally a bug and has been fixed because Blizz doesn't want MM Hunters double dipping. Or, it is currently a bug on the PTR and will be reverted. You could just as easily argue that CS is doing too much damage and should, in fact, add 40% of the actual damage done over the 10s and not 40% of the total damage of the sting. The tool tip is, at best, confusing and this is all a matter of semantics that will be adjusted by Blizz as they see fit.
I would ask this: Can you name a single glyph that boosts DPS through multiple sources? If you can, then that will be what is needed to get GC or anyone else to confirm the reasoning behind this.
I'm not sure if I'm following you - could you explain how does MM hunter double dip from Glyph of Serpent Sting? Assuming you're able to fire CS on every cooldown, you have no benefit from SS Glyph, except extra damage on CS sting component. You're not gaining any extra GCD to use for steady shot, as you want to have CS fired as soon as it's avaible to you. So only extra thing you can manage is wider time window for delayed Chimera shot, that doesn't let your sting fall off. But that's a situation of dps loss already then.
The hunter only sometimes double dips from the glyph. It will only benefit both the sting, and the shot if you put up the sting, use CS, and then let the sting fall off. Otherwise it is just benefiting the shot, not really the sting. The glyph only extends the duration of the sting, not the damage it does. Most fights this glyph doesn't double dip, Sapp and Sarth are the only fights I've had my sting fall off and had to reapply it, maybe Grob if people are being bad about staying behind him and spawning too many oozes.
The hunter only sometimes double dips from the glyph. It will only benefit both the sting, and the shot if you put up the sting, use CS, and then let the sting fall off. Otherwise it is just benefiting the shot, not really the ticks. The glyph only extends the duration of the sting, not the damage it does. Most fights this glyph doesn't double dip, Sapp and Sarth are the only fights I've had my sting fall off and had to reapply it, maybe Grob if people are being bad about staying behind him and spawning too many oozes.
Fixed it for you. Wouldn't want confusion on the matter. The ticks/DPS stays the same, the damage per application goes up. And that's the crux. Chimera Serpent tooltip says 40% of the damage, which is per application. If that is wrong, then they should say it is wrong, and change the tooltip.
Just like Lactose, the current wording of the tool tip leads me to believe that it should be dependent on a percentage of serpent sting's damage -- no matter what that is at the time you happen to be casting it.
The glyph increases serpent sting damage (by making it last longer). AP increases serpent sting damage. Both should (in my mind at least) result in bigger CS'es, since it's a fixed percentage of a bigger number. You're free to disagree, but the bottom line is that Blizzard decides what it means. If they change it, they definitely should change the tool tip IMHO.
Whether it makes sense or not is another matter entirely. It seems that Glyph of SS would be a completely useless glyph for MM, but I suppose thats okay -- a glyph doesn't have to be useful for all specs. It just seems strange that the spec that focuses on stings the most (and the tree in which these stings are) get the *least* benefit from a glyph, but hey, that's just me
Currently on the PTR frost trap is not linked to LnL cd. I have tested frost trap on Sarth and it triggers LnL I assume even though bosses are immune to its affect the trap being triggered is enough for it to proc LnL. Trap dancing may still be alive.
So, when you can, try freezing arrow on immune bosses on the PTR and see if that works. If it does, sayonara trap dancing...
So, when you can, try freezing arrow on immune bosses on the PTR and see if that works. If it does, sayonara trap dancing...
i have tried at onyxia and no, freezing arrow or trap doesnt trigger LnL, frost trap was triggering LnL but why anyone wants to use frost trap on a boss to trigger lnl while immolation can also add some dps (except the fire immune ones like onyxia)
i have tried at onyxia and no, freezing arrow or trap doesnt trigger LnL, frost trap was triggering LnL but why anyone wants to use frost trap on a boss to trigger lnl while immolation can also add some dps (except the fire immune ones like onyxia)
Because Immolation does not trigger a second LnL while frost does. This is either a bug (which with all the recent changes probably is) or was kept primarily for pvp reasons.
So, when you can, try freezing arrow on immune bosses on the PTR and see if that works. If it does, sayonara trap dancing...
Freezing trap doesn't work, so I just assumed freezing arrow wont. I haven't tested snake trap though, but explosive does not trigger a new LnL after serpt procs a LnL.
Whether it makes sense or not is another matter entirely. It seems that Glyph of SS would be a completely useless glyph for MM, but I suppose thats okay -- a glyph doesn't have to be useful for all specs. It just seems strange that the spec that focuses on stings the most (and the tree in which these stings are) get the *least* benefit from a glyph, but hey, that's just me
The big question really is, which glyph can take it's place? Personally I see no interesting glyphs out there. TSA is pretty weak for a 10 sec CD fairly weak ability, if it was 10% damage, then it would begin to look better. Arcane and Aimed glyphs provide a whopping 25 mana per 6 seconds (Aimed has 160% the cooldown and 160% the manacost, the result is thus very close to the same). Rapid Fire just has too low uptime to be very worthwhile. Hunter's Mark is 60 AP flat, yay for that. Viper is just not a very good way to buff manareturn (but might be the best option).
Like you I have considered Serpent Sting the big MM glyph, where BW was the BM glyph. But it also provides utility to the other specs, making it an overall very good glyph. With this part gone MM glyphing really becomes a challenge in finding the least horrible glyph. I mean Steady Shot remains a solid one, but with the reduction in damage, we are looking for replacements for it, weakening it's glyph's value similarly. And while the Glyph of IAotH is also solid it is only that when there is high uptime of the proc, and the 6% haste itself is long past the Haste cap anyway, so it is a purely white glyph (with a little Wild Quiver DPS attached).
These weaknesses in glyphs lead me to believe we will actually get quite good ones in 3.1. I doubt Blizzard doesn't know the glyphs are pretty poor overall. Of course it wouldn't be the first time a selfbuff would be quite poor for a class (how long haven't we had no Mongoose/Crusader equivalent?).
I am not 100% sure, but I remember in the weeks prior to Wotlk, when Inscription was introduced. Back then there were several blue posts promising that by the end of the expansion all the abilities of all the classes will have their glyph ingame. So maybe the SS nerf is going along with some future CS glyph?
The glyphed HM stacks with a normal HM, so we have another 360AP on the target ( that untill it will be fixed, but it hasnt so far and its up since LK start )
Has there been a test to actually verify them stacking? Last I heard, the stacking was purely visual, with only the glyphed Hunter's Mark actually being applied (i.e. the stronger of the 2).
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
Has there been a test to actually verify them stacking? Last I heard, the stacking was purely visual, with only the glyphed Hunter's Mark actually being applied (i.e. the stronger of the 2).
I only did some testing on live @ the heroic dummy, not the PTR, since hearing about this a few days ago. It seemed to be purely visual in serveral 10 minute tests with 1 HM up and then with both HM's up.
The unglyphed HM can only be applied if the glyphed one is already present, otherwise the glyphed version overwrites.
There are several bugs carried over from the PTR and currently evident on Live 3.0.8: DD Forums: 3.0.8 Hunter Bugs
I tested the "Explosive Shot does 0 damage when casting at/near OOM" myself and can confirm that it is indeed bugged. Apparently someone had actually pointed out this bug 16 days ago and received a Blue Post addressing it. Alas, it still made it through.
As for the rest of the bugs, I'm now at work and cannot test the "GftT" not proccing on all Auto/Steady crits. Can anyone confirm this or any of the other bugs posted?
I just noticed Feign Death working funny on Raz. Every time I FDed, it wiped me from the threat meter, and then as soon as I stood up, it put all my threat back up. This happened 6 times in a row. Not sure if it is the mod, or if they corrected Shadowmeld and messed up Feign Death at the same time.
It worked fine on Gothik, so it may be something with Raz.
=
As for the rest of the bugs, I'm now at work and cannot test the "GftT" not proccing on all Auto/Steady crits. Can anyone confirm this or any of the other bugs posted?
Just from regular observation, my GftT has been working fine. Every time I crit, my pet's focus bar jumps.
Just got home from work, and I was wondering, if anyone can confirm the damage of Explosive shot, and if chimera no longer calculates it's damage for the total damage of serpent sting while glyphed. I could not find the answers anywhere.
I was experiencing my pet being focus starved with 1/2 GFTT despite having a crit rate of around 53% raid buffed. Sting was only accounting for 4% of my pet's overall damage. Upon testing it in on the dummies in Org, the focus generation seemed to be back to normal, and sting's damage contribution went back up to around 10%. I have no idea what was causing the problem, it was quite laggy while I was raiding, so perhaps I wasn't able to fire as many shots in the same time, leading to the focus starvation. GFTT appears to be working properly, sorry for the mix-up. I went ahead and deleted my posts in the bug thread.
01/16/09, 9:12 PM
Wouldn't want confusion on the matter. The ticks/DPS stays the same, the damage per application goes up. And that's the crux. Chimera Serpent tooltip says 40% of the damage, which is per application. If that is wrong, then they should say it is wrong, and change the tooltip.
