As replied already - we do not know if it will have any effect. I could go pesimistic and say "I don't think so", but I will refrain myself from it and wait for some PTR data. It would be fantastic if Freezing Arrow would work, but we don't know if it does, and my first statement was based on assumption that it doesn't.
I can confirm that Freezing Arrow triggers LnL procs on the boss target dummy on the PTR (and almost certainly also on Live.)
As I recall, mobs that are immune to a trap type will still set the trap off, but it has no effect on the mob.
I can confirm that Freezing Arrow triggers LnL procs on the boss target dummy on the PTR (and almost certainly also on Live.)
As I recall, mobs that are immune to a trap type will still set the trap off, but it has no effect on the mob.
Well first of all, this is great news!
And since freezing arrow actually triggers LnL would it be wise to use resourcefullness? (3/3 = 6sec less cd on traps + 60% less mana for traps and melee abilities)
6 sec is actually 20% less cd on traps - which means 20% more LnL - now I can't present any actual dps increase numbers but I would like some discussion about this.
I can confirm that Freezing Arrow triggers LnL procs on the boss target dummy on the PTR (and almost certainly also on Live.)
As I recall, mobs that are immune to a trap type will still set the trap off, but it has no effect on the mob.
The target dummies aren't immune to Freezing traps like bosses are though, so yes they will trigger LnL, having tested Freezing Arrow on a trap immune mob all that happened was the trap was consumed and LnL didn't proc.
Bosses have always been immune to Frost and Freezing Traps. That's why you had to set the Frost Trap on the outskirts of Illidan in order to slow the Demons he spawned. And that is why people are trap dancing with Immolation Trap.
I will warn you all now, trap dancing is not intended and will be handled later on. Whether it is that Blizz adds in code that prevents traps after a boss is engaged or some other mechanic where they simply won't activate a trap, it is going to happen.
I will warn you all now, trap dancing is not intended and will be handled later on. Whether it is that Blizz adds in code that prevents traps after a boss is engaged or some other mechanic where they simply won't activate a trap, it is going to happen.
Well, I'd like a soloution which didn't cripple all boss usage. Like, oh, removing the trap proc from LnL, doubling the sting percentage and making up the rest elsewhere. Stopping us from using traps on bosses would make us have even less utility on, say, Gluth...
SV looks to be viable after the patch, with trap dancing. If it gets removed without compensation, well...I agree it's a cludgy mechanic but so were 3:2 macros.
I did a test on the PTR because I was wondering the same as others. I fired a freezing arrow at an outdoor lvl 70 raid boss a few times and it did not proc LnL. I appreciate this isnt conclusive, and I havent been able to form any kind of raid capable of testing it in a place like naxx, but I think its unlikely we can use freezing arrow for this.
Personally I dont mind - I think its a whole new playstyle to use traps and some melee abilities on boss fights. If you wanna stand and shoot you can get away with it, or spec BM or MM, but I think this could be quite challenging/fun and Im all for it.
Explosive is very powerful but you hsve to remember it is the tree. Add together all the nice scaling talents in MM or BM, thats what you need to compare ES to pretty much because theres little else in its tree. Trying to put almost all the scaling of an entire tree into one talent point is always going to make it seem OP im my opinion, but as long as were not OP to the extent of BM on live, it could well save the tree and be hugely beneficial for PvP.
May i ask why trap dancing is not intended? As in isn't it a part of Survival skills and talents? I mean that's the only way to trig LnL isn't it, esp considering we dump 3 talent points into it.
May i ask why trap dancing is not intended? As in isn't it a part of Survival skills and talents? I mean that's the only way to trig LnL isn't it, esp considering we dump 3 talent points into it.
LnL can also be triggered (at a rather low rate) by Serpent Sting ticks. It just happens that on certain fights we can leverage trap-based procs for an extra 2 ES per 30 seconds (or less), which represents a substantial DPS boost (although, as I say, I'd be surprised if, by the time it went live, the new ES scaling justified using a zero-damage GCD to proc LnL).
As a talent, LnL looks like a typical PvP/PvE split talent... trap procs for PvP, serpent sting procs for PvE. If that's how Blizzard sees it, then yes, it's safe to say that trap-dancing is not part of their vision for SV raid DPS. Personally, though, I like the idea, but would like to see it emerge in a more elegant fashion from SV game mechanics.
While I don't think blizzard thought of trap dancing when they first thought up LnL, I'd be surprised to see them remove it unless it drastically increased SV dps to the point where it made SV hunters into what BM hunters are right now. Blizzard has shown in the past that they like players to use creative play styles to increase their effectiveness, and trap dancing certainly is one of the fanciest and most creative play styles I can think of for a hunter. Blizzard doesn't really care how classes do their dps, as long as its not too incredibly simple (steady spam) or exploiting game mechanics. And from my point of view, I really hope they not only keep trap dancing in the game, but also leave it in a form that is able to top dps meters. Giving the hunter class some style and flash in PVE would be a refreshing change from steady spam and CD mashing.
Giving the hunter class some style and flash in PVE would be a refreshing change from steady spam and CD mashing.
I personally enjoy my Disengage & Traps as defensive mechanisms. If competitive dps required me to have these two on CD always, I think my raid spots for encounters like 3-Drake kills would be endangered.
I like the idea of more than 1-button spam. Making Trap-Dancing without throwing-traps "the" competitive dps method, would only assist monotone stationary dps fights, while crippling hunter dps on the other 95% of multitasking fights.
Blizz wants players to be creative within their specs and skills. What Blizzard doesn't want is for players to abuse mechanics and skill combinations to achieve goals outside their desired parameters. This is why I said, A LONG time ago, that Wind Serpents + GftT was a bad combination that woudl be fixed. It is why I said, back in Beta, that Readiness resetting Bestial Wrath was an unintended DPS boost and would be dealt with in time (I got blasted on these boards for speaking such blasphemy). And it is why I'm saying, now, that trap dancing with the point of abusing LnL will get handled. The end result will ultimately be something where traps cannot be triggered by boss flagged mobs or, worse yet, where traps won't be allowed on boss encounters.
Blizz wants players to be creative within their specs and skills. What Blizzard doesn't want is for players to abuse mechanics and skill combinations to achieve goals outside their desired parameters. This is why I said, A LONG time ago, that Wind Serpents + GftT was a bad combination that woudl be fixed. It is why I said, back in Beta, that Readiness resetting Bestial Wrath was an unintended DPS boost and would be dealt with in time (I got blasted on these boards for speaking such blasphemy). And it is why I'm saying, now, that trap dancing with the point of abusing LnL will get handled. The end result will ultimately be something where traps cannot be triggered by boss flagged mobs or, worse yet, where traps won't be allowed on boss encounters.
Wind serpents weren't fixed for an entire half of an expansion. If trap dancing lasts that long, then it's worth investigating and potentially mastering.
While I agree that sometimes we can all see handwriting on the wall for certain abilities and playstyles, I really do not see where you're coming up with this particular prediction. I have never seen Blizzard indicate in the slightest that traps are intended for PVP/CC only and should not be used for DPS or bosses. If that's the case, why even have Immolation or Explosive Trap, honestly?
Blizzard has neither encouraged or discouraged the use of traps for a DPS increase in PVE. This is the first time that we've ever even considered such a mechanic. To state that it will be "fixed" as though we're exploiting some bug is as ludicrous as saying bosses will become immune to Raptor Strike because we're not intended to be meleeing them. Whether or not we're intended to use traps to maintain competitive Survival DPS aside, they're not going to make bosses immune to traps just to pigeonhole us more into a specific style of play. The day they do is the day they'll also root hunters 35 yards away from bosses when a fight starts and spam their steady shot macros for them.
Blizzard has neither encouraged or discouraged the use of traps for a DPS increase in PVE. This is the first time that we've ever even considered such a mechanic.
True, but only because trap scaling was weak and trap synergy was non-existant. With ES getting a significant buff, LnL procs will only become a significant factor in SV DPS in the next patch... inducing emergent phenomenon like trap dancing. Blizzard has a long track record of dealing with player-based innovation in a reactive fashion, be it supporting or suppressing. They're clearing fiddling with hunter DPS for all specs... I think it's safe to say that the SV space is being watched closely
i think most people would agree that the best solution to this issue is simply to have the 41 pointer be trap throwing, and give us a real level 80 ability.
as far as blizzard taking away traps on boss encounters, i find that unlikely - out of our five traps, 2 are already unusable on bosses (frost and freezing), snake trap is half unusable (the crippling doesn't work), and explosive trap is highly inefficient against one target. the only trap we would ever use on a boss is immolation, even if we didn't have LnL as a talent.
so blizz would have to remove our use of an efficient DOT on a boss just because it forces us to use a clunky mechanic THEY implemented? why not just fix the clunky mechanic? or put LnL at a 10% or 15% chance on serpent ticks and take away the 100% trap trigger from the talent? while i disagree with the majority of the way blizzard has handled our class in the short term, in the long term they seem to do alright and i don't think that removing a damage-only DOT entirely is their modus operandi, especially when the only hitch with it is that we have to run back and forth to lay the trap.
Wind serpents weren't fixed for an entire half of an expansion. If trap dancing lasts that long, then it's worth investigating and potentially mastering.
While I agree that sometimes we can all see handwriting on the wall for certain abilities and playstyles, I really do not see where you're coming up with this particular prediction. I have never seen Blizzard indicate in the slightest that traps are intended for PVP/CC only and should not be used for DPS or bosses. If that's the case, why even have Immolation or Explosive Trap, honestly?
Blizzard has neither encouraged or discouraged the use of traps for a DPS increase in PVE. This is the first time that we've ever even considered such a mechanic. To state that it will be "fixed" as though we're exploiting some bug is as ludicrous as saying bosses will become immune to Raptor Strike because we're not intended to be meleeing them. Whether or not we're intended to use traps to maintain competitive Survival DPS aside, they're not going to make bosses immune to traps just to pigeonhole us more into a specific style of play. The day they do is the day they'll also root hunters 35 yards away from bosses when a fight starts and spam their steady shot macros for them.
Completely agree here.
Only if the stars align badly will they nerf the traps. Firstly Survival will been to do OP on DPS, at least as 'badly' as BM now ('s indicate the less than stellar support for the OPness). And then they have to pass over a nerf for Explosive Shot in favour of traps. And then they have to work out a way to make traps non-useless on bosses and not make LnL worthless in PvP (making the synergy remain). That can only happen if LnL only procced on the two frost traps. A doable situation.
But I really doubt it. While Blizzard has a record to reacting to unexpected DPS increasers, they won't do it unless it is blatantly overpowering. They never did anything to stop the 3:2 macros in TBC, it was better, but didn't make Hunters blatantly OP. Hunters weren't stacked like Shamans because of it. So there seems to be a buffer, and it seems to be pretty large for Survival.
If we want to trap-dance is another matter entirely. I don't like the idea, but anything that isn't broken or abusing a glitch/bug is fine by me.
So why exactly do people "want" to have trap dancing? I would find that incredibly annoying to have to run in lay a trap, disengage, etc every 24-30 seconds. I can't see Blizzard wanting us to do that either. (unless of course you could stand at 5 yards)
So why exactly do people "want" to have trap dancing? I would find that incredibly annoying to have to run in lay a trap, disengage, etc every 24-30 seconds. I can't see Blizzard wanting us to do that either. (unless of course you could stand at 5 yards)
i think that's what most people dislike, but if it's the max way to do damage, then so be it. i will find it annoying but i want my LnL procs!
i think blizzard will be more likely to fix the situation in a positive way by implementing a solution that gives us LnL procs without having to get melee range every 30 seconds, rather than just taking out traps on boss encounters.
They have said in the past that they are not happy with traps and have toyed around with ideas on how to change them (there was a post at some point during beta, I don't recall the exact wording) yet haven't been satisfied enough with any of them to implement any of them. You are downing trap dancing as if it is an OP mechanic, when it is actually 2 ES/AS with no CD, No Ammo Usage, and No mana/ammo cost. Comparing it to something that increases your pets damage by 50% and your damage by 10% (not to even mention the immunity aspect of the ability). Apples are not Oranges. The free shots still trigger GCD and firing them back to back lessens the benefit as you miss out on the additional ticks. The trap timer restriction would keep this ability in check, I wouldn't be surprised to see a more formal form of trap dancing implemented.
It would almost seem as if the ability was designed with the idea that we would be using traps more often from a different form of deployment possibly that didn't make the time table or wasn't done being tested so they tossed the sting portion of the ability on there.
When we started naxx 25, I had to go survival, and it really sucked trying to use that spec outside of a raid (mm/bm pets have so much more threat gen, I wish the Surv tree did a bit more for pets), and it really sucked being last as a dpser on Patchwerk. Unlike BM, though, the more complex the encounter, the better the dps ranking survival did, to the point where I could be #1 on Heigan because of all the dancing, while BM has been just the opposite -- most encounters I was in the average far from #1 slot. Complex encounters naturally lend themselves to trapping and Survival's strength as a dot class, while being detrimental to BM substantially. Honestly, on the few encounters that are hard, BM is frustrating and difficult to work with, Marks is the most reliable, and Survival provides the most opportunity to play around and improve. The skill tree, though, is utter trash compared to almost every other tree in the game, with lots of wasted talents, and the good stuff unevenly spread along the tree, no other tree has left me with so many points to spend with negligible dps talents to choose from.
Wind serpents weren't fixed for an entire half of an expansion. If trap dancing lasts that long, then it's worth investigating and potentially mastering.
While I agree that sometimes we can all see handwriting on the wall for certain abilities and playstyles, I really do not see where you're coming up with this particular prediction. I have never seen Blizzard indicate in the slightest that traps are intended for PVP/CC only and should not be used for DPS or bosses. If that's the case, why even have Immolation or Explosive Trap, honestly?
Blizzard has neither encouraged or discouraged the use of traps for a DPS increase in PVE. This is the first time that we've ever even considered such a mechanic. To state that it will be "fixed" as though we're exploiting some bug is as ludicrous as saying bosses will become immune to Raptor Strike because we're not intended to be meleeing them. Whether or not we're intended to use traps to maintain competitive Survival DPS aside, they're not going to make bosses immune to traps just to pigeonhole us more into a specific style of play. The day they do is the day they'll also root hunters 35 yards away from bosses when a fight starts and spam their steady shot macros for them.
No. This is complete and total rationalization at its worst. Blizzard wants us, and every other class, to be able to utilize all of our tools in given situations. They do NOT want us to abuse our tools to min/max the class. Trap dancing is abusing the mechanics through the use of an unforeseen loophole. LnL was intended to give PvP Hunter specced in SV a means to apply burst damage and to add some additional usage in limited PvE scale. The primary PvE use of LnL was keyed in on the Serpent Sting tics. Running back and forth in melee range dropping an Immolation Trap just to get LnL to proc is not what they want. And quite frankly, it isn't what we should want either. Though, I'm personally annoyed at the legions of SV floppers that are looking at the spec as an upgrade to BM because of this whole issue. But personal feelings aside, this isn't going to last long if it even makes it out of the PTR.
As I said, my gutt tells me that they'll make it so that bosses no longer trigger traps just to ensure that LnL's mechanics are maintained for their original intent.
I don't believe they'll make boss mobs immune to traps. They are not immune now, they are immune to slowing and CC. Using traps on bosses is usefull ( Thaddius while running by, Heigan when running back to the platform after the dance, Sartharion when avoiding the right-side waves and lots of older boses whose names I can't recall ) and should not be made impossible because of 1 emerging mechanic.
If it's too good I hope they just nerf the dmg from the free shots instead of turning it into the new casino game in SV tree...
No. This is complete and total rationalization at its worst. Blizzard wants us, and every other class, to be able to utilize all of our tools in given situations. They do NOT want us to abuse our tools to min/max the class. Trap dancing is abusing the mechanics through the use of an unforeseen loophole. LnL was intended to give PvP Hunter specced in SV a means to apply burst damage and to add some additional usage in limited PvE scale. The primary PvE use of LnL was keyed in on the Serpent Sting tics. Running back and forth in melee range dropping an Immolation Trap just to get LnL to proc is not what they want. And quite frankly, it isn't what we should want either. Though, I'm personally annoyed at the legions of SV floppers that are looking at the spec as an upgrade to BM because of this whole issue. But personal feelings aside, this isn't going to last long if it even makes it out of the PTR.
As I said, my gutt tells me that they'll make it so that bosses no longer trigger traps just to ensure that LnL's mechanics are maintained for their original intent.
It seems we are not going to agree on this.
Unless Survival is going to do over the top DPS with trapdancing, and not OP DPS without it, I really don't see a change to traps. Why would Blizzard do it? Because it was an unintended behaviour? Not good enough reason. It has to provide more than that, even the 3:2 macro twisted our DPS mechanic in a very unintended way. They certainly didn't touch that until the big patch. If trapdancing provides positive DPS over not doing it, but doesn't make Survival top dog on the charts, then it will stay. Imagine Survival being comfortably in the right position as a spec that can do best or 5th depending on luck (meaning the classes are pretty much balanced), but without it is going to be placed below that in the 'supposed' hybrid quarters. Then killing trapdancing would go against Blizzard's own intentions with the DPS balance. Hardly likely to happen then. Of course unless they buff another part to bring the non-trapping Surv up to the position of the trapping Surv. But we all know how likely that is.
12/20/08, 7:41 PM
