Dantastic

Im not convinced that trap dancing was totally unintentional from blizz. Point of no escape specifies the traps which cant be used on bosses, so that we cant just add 6% crit for the raid, which suggests to me they considered the idea of using traps on bosses. LnL on the other hand is all traps, even though immo traps arent really used in arenas.

Personally Id like it if the three specs performance was situational - a hunter with the same gear/skill of each spec goes on a naxx raid, the BM wins patch etc, MM wins haigan etc and SV wins the fights involving adds. This means you can play the spec you want, and be able to justify it.

 

Korvek

If LnL was intended only for PvP burst, then they would have restricted it procs to freezing/frost/snake trap.

 

CrowneVict

With regard to the TrapDancing debate, Blizzard themselves had said back in Beta that they wanted hunters to use their traps more often. I wish I could find the relevant posts, but basically, traps are a tool that see very little use in PvE. As were Stings. As was Arcane Shot. Aimed is seeing regular PvP use. Deterrence changes. Disengage went from useless to useful. Why should they discourage a new challenging playstyle that does exactly what they would like to see done: Using more abilities.

So, intended or not, as long as the numbers aren't way over the top, I would think Bliz would be thrilled to see a skilled trap dance hunter do it's thing. I'm tired of face-rolling the same steady shot macro and having to spec BM 100% of the time because it's the best hands-down. Some variety would be great. This is exactly the play style I was hoping for when WotLK came out, but it was shot down with such heavy ES nerfs.

In my opinion, and in my forums suggestions, SV should have been migrated to a close-range spec anyhow. Think reverse-sniper training. Within 20 yards for bonus damage. Better melee hits. Avoidance for PVP. New strats for PVE. Traps that make you want to spec into them as a 41-pointer (ex, frost traps that also slow attack/casting speed, freezing traps that freeze all in a 5-yard radius, Improved Explosive Traps that have knockback, Improved Immolation traps that spread the immolation DoT to nearby targets within 5-yards, or scrap all that and just have the talent make all traps range-able).

As it sits, I have been waiting for an excuse to play SV. But it's a conflicted tree. The buff to ES will help, but IMO, BM should be about the pets (it is), MM should be about big ranged hits (it is), SV needs it's own feel. Trap dancing is on the right track, imo.

EDIT ::

ps. Add Volley to the list of one-useless talents that got the big 'dusting off' in wotlk.

It's like SV tries too hard to be MM currently... but it just can't stack up, since the only tree synergy up to this point has revolved around a nerfed-to-the-ground ES. Hawk Eye and Sniper Training go against the grain - The rest of the tree is proc-based, melee buffs, and traps. It'd be great if it was a more mobile spec with some tricks up it's sleeves. Something with good PVP utility, but also with a little more of a creative PVE application for those who might be bored with the Stand and Pew-Pew macros.

 

Saladin

Remember what the devs said in the Lich King development video: they consider Death Knight design a huge success because the trees don't define WHAT you do so much as the define HOW you do it. Their goal was to make each tree capable of tanking or DPS, but in different ways. They kind of succeeded with Unholy and Frost but flopped on Blood, yet they're still trying to rectify that and apply that same philosophy to other classes.

We're witnessing the death of "the DPS spec, the PVP spec, etc." And I'm happy to see it. There are DPS and PVP talents strewn throughout high and low Marks, BM, and SV. A lot of people have called this "disjointed," but it provides a lot of potential if Blizzard is willing to come through on their stated objectives. Honestly, I believe they are. I don't see Blizzard trying to make BM the top-DPS spec, MM the raid-buff spec, and Survival the Forest Gump spec. It's clear from these changes and the communicatin they've given us that they would rather the DPS difference be within the single-digit percentage points rather than SV doing 80% of the DPS that BM does, as it is now.

Currently, when evaluating the specs, you have to maintain a running total of the utility inherent in every tree--not just DPS.

BM:
+3% damage for the raid
-5% less tank damage with a tenacity pet vs. any other spec

MM:
+10% raid AP

Surv:
Replenishment

(This isn't counting pet debuffs like a worm's sunder armor or a sporebat's faerie fire, assuming you don't have the "real" classes available.)

For the sake of argument, let's ignore BM's beefier RoS since most prefer ferocity pets. So we're looking at 1 buff for each spec. Which of those 3 is the most valuable?

That question can't be answered. In a raid with nothing but physical DPS, with acceptable levels of AP, MM's buff will provide the most raid benefit. In a raid without pure physical DPS or perhaps low AP levels, BM's buff takes the lead. In a pure-caster raid or healer-intensive fight, Replenishment could be the most valuable.

Thus, if each buff is equally situational (hence, equally valuable), you can't say that any spec should be "the top DPS spec" hands down, because you can't rely on the spec buff making up for the DPS discrepencies. As a result, we need to see sub-10% differences in DPS potential across all three specs, assuming you take the raid-relevant talents. It's safe to predict that Blizzard will continue to adjust the specs until we see something along these lines.

I, for one, welcome the day that neither Survival nor BM is "the best" DPS.

 

Jinsu

I have a hard time believing blizzard wants us using traps in that fashion as a part of their overall design of the class. It would be like giving a priest a melee ranged heal and having them stand by the tank..just doesn't fit well in my opinion.

I think they could give survival a "Trap Throw" or they could up the proc chance on serpent sting and reduce it on traps so that it still a boost for PVP but not somthing required to do on a PVE encounter.

ret pallies give 3% damage buff and Vigilance + the disc priest buff can give -5% damage to the tank.

 

Esoth

BM's buff does not stack with Sanctified Retribution from ret paladins. Most buffs/debuffs are meant to have alternatives in other specs or other classes.

 

Enova

They could actually add an additional effect to Freezing Shot (Thunder Clap, for instance), so that in case the mob is immune to the CC effect, you could still use LnL, even if you would have to pick up, say, Trap Mastery for the actual bonus. Or, simply remove the trapping component from LnL and replace it with something like a chance to allow Kill Shot on stings, in addition to the current effects. Even better still, significantly increase the chance to proc on and/or refresh the current sting.

Overall, I feel that Hawk eye and Sniper Training don't fit so well in the same tree with LnL, but unless a massive rehaul will come our way in 3.1, I'm afraid we're stuck with the trapping mechanics. Still, it's not all bad, and traps do come in handy on lots of occasions (Gluth and Noth's adds, Thaddius polarity shifts, Grobbulus - if you feel you're confident with the tank's kiting path and so forth; I'm quite sure there are more a lot more situations I didn't think of yet) LnL however should be a bonus for using traps, not force you into doing so, even if the effects are toned down.

Guilty as charged ^

 

Skhope

The easiest solution I see to fix the trap dancing issue is for Blizzard to change LnL such that Serpent Sting also has a 100% chance to proc it, but the proc has a 30 sec cooldown. The only downside I see is for PVP if a hunter has both Readiness and LnL, he would not be able to get 4 Arcane Shots in a row. However, they can make Readiness reset this cooldown to address that.

 

Rabid Rob

When talking about what buff each spec has for the raid, I think you shouldn't count the BM version, simply put, a ret pally can maintain his buff, but a BM pet cannot consistently provide a buff. Especially on the harder encounters, where you really need those buffs, and those are the encounters which matter and provide the best predictors for future encounters.

Oh, and you left out the Scorpid Sting debuff, which I really only felt like it did something the first time we cleared naxx 25, after that tank and tank-healing capability have become a non-issue.

Overall, though, I don't think this matters for hunters. A few class/spec combos provide most or all of the buffs anyone wants, and hunters are not involved in that for 25 man play, only loosely for 10 man play. (-- and is largely irrelevant in this thread it seems to me).

 

CrowneVict

Yeah, I'm guilty of assuming any useful buff I can bring is already being covered. My #1 concern is damage output, so I'm not going to go out of my way for Hunting Party if I think something else might be a dps boost. No one is ever going to say, "Man, that hunter's dps isn't so great, but that replenishment buff is TIGHT."

They save those comments for Ret pallies and Shadow Priests

 

KraxisSingular

The point is that they bring more... Rets are walking buffmachines, and Spriests adds healing their group, rezzes, pinchhealing (healer dies an Spriest can drop out and heal pretty well, better than most hybrids), and they add hit directly to casters.

How can we comopete with that? By being better at DPS in general. Right now it would be a tough decision to pick either one or a good Hunter, generaly another would be 'picked'. Afterwards I don't think there will be much decision.

Scorpid Sting is covered by Boomkins if they don't glyph Insect Swarm. We have already been over this a number of times here. The cost to a Hunter is simply too great.

 

Arcazua

You aren't the only one. I play a survivalist. Not a survival hunter, a survivalist. As in, I do things many sane hunters would not. (I melee stuff when I feel it's prudent, for example.) I happen to think that staying at relatively close range and employing traps fits more with the demeanor of a survivalist -- they're either gonna get in and dirty or stay way the heck away to be safe, depending on your viewpoint. Of course, Hawk Eye and Sniper Training would suggest the other viewpoint, but I think it's fitting and I just recently independently specced into Point of No Escape to fool around with it even though I realize it has essentially no boss application. I'm sorely tempted to respec now and add in Resourcefulness.

I don't believe this for one second, for one simple reason: Serpent Sting procs on Lock and Load are awful. Under your most ideal situations, you get one proc per 50 seconds. Using pre-2.0.8 mechanics, did they REALLY amount to much of a DPS increase at all? And yet, the whole tree seems to be built around the idea that Explosive Shot should be doing your damage and the way to make that happen is to shoot it more...which means you need Lock and Load procs. And you need a lot more of them than once per 50 seconds in a totally random and unreliable fashion.

I personally believe that LnL procs off traps in PvE is intended -- at least in non-raid boss contexts. I use it to great effect while soloing or running 5-mans. In that regard, I'm overjoyed it isn't going to break my Freezing Traps any more, even if it does put a damper on my AE burst capabilities a good bit. Put back into raid boss situations, we can still get the blue moon procs from Serpent Sting, but now we have a proc every 30 (or maybe 24) seconds that we know exactly when it will happen and not run into weird issues with monitoring the proc and having it happen right after we start our ES cooldown and such. Let's just suppose for a second we don't get overlap on our serp and trap procs -- every 150 seconds, we'll get another 8.5 explosive shots or so. (Would be 10, but it tinkers with the natural cooldown of the ability.) Is this really that overpowered in a tree that doesn't do remarkable damage outside that scope?

This is probably the best argument for why trap dancing is unintended, however that doesn't mean that it should be unwelcome. I think really this just says that they weren't intending on giving the raid an extra 6% crit during boss fights, since that would essentially make one survival hunter trapping a necessity on raid fights, which in the big picture would be pretty dumb. I would love to see -- although totally don't anticipate -- seeing a self-only boost to PoNE for Immo and Exp traps.



For my final thoughts, I want to bounce back to Resourcefulness. Assuming that trap-dancing is at least not abolished, regardless of intentions, does having a refresh on trap cooldowns coming 6 seconds sooner warrant 3 talent points? Although I'm not a big fan of actually using Serpent Sting, a build like this 18/52 (+1) might work out decently considering 2 of those points in Res are needed *somewhere* in the tree anyway.

Back on page 2, Markemp suggested that ES would be dealing more than double damage -- for the sake of argument, let's say +3200 (about 4200 AP equivalent) per 2-and-a-tiny-chunk seconds for 6050 damage, or about 1500 extra DPS, 3000 DPS total, while it's active. Of course, it's not constantly active, or that'd be a sweet addition, but here's what we're looking at:

Natural cooldown rate only: every 6 seconds, or about 33% activity (1000 DPS)
Natural cooldown rate plus one serp every 8 natural cooldown: 20 out of 52 seconds, or 38.46% activity (1153 DPS)
Natural cooldown rate plus trapping every 5 cooldowns: 14 out of 34 seconds, or 41.17% activity (1235 DPS)
Combo of serp procs and trap: 3 stings, 5 traps, 20 cooldowns; 72 out of 152 seconds, or 47.37% activity (1421 DPS)
Trap ever 4 cooldowns thanks to Resourcefulness: 12 out of 28 seconds, or 42.86% activity (1285 DPS)
Combo with Resourcefulness: 6 cooldowns, 2 traps, 1 sting; 24 out of 48 seconds, 50% activity (1500 DPS!)

This is all very quick math and I don't think any of it is actually accurate due to the interplay between abilities, along with the GCD and some bad combinatorics, but it's a crude idea that gets the point across ok for a 2 am post. Resourceness could actually be construed as a DPS talent under these terms -- granted, maybe only 50-80 DPS best case scenario under idealized theorycrafting, but I'm not going to complain if I get just half of that increase coming from a 3-point utility talent. I would love an excuse to spec for this talent, but I just always keep it forcing it out of the way. Perhaps it actually is worth it now.

(BTW, when we think about these scenarios, for anyone who starts trying to get into this stuff, try to also keep in mind that Lock and Load is a mana-saver as well. Under that last scenarion, that's 6 shots during 32 GCDs that are using zero mana.)

 

Shibam

I dont know whether its intended or not but i dont see any reason for blizz to care. Everyone complains about hunters and calls them huntards cuz we push 1 macro button and this makes the class a bit more difficult to play i.e. when its ok to run in and place a trap etc. And it isnt like survival is OP compared to any other spec if anything its the lowest dps and with the nerf to BM it maybe on par after the patch.

Thank you!

 

Phantasmique

Well, its not really like that ...

I do have to agree that the Naxx fights are rather boring and straight forward themselves, so adding the SS/Chimera shots makes the situation even more boring . But, if we get out of Naxx, things change pretty much a lot

The Malygos fight is somewhat complicated for a hunter, as the hunter has quite some jobs to fill at this encounter ( take care of MD, take care of pet to keep attacking all the time, move pet inside sparks area whenever is possible, etc ) ... and if we add those jobs along with a complicated dps method, then we end up whitout having time to do everything, if not really confused or poor performing

The Sartharion fight ( wich is a trend to go at it with 3 adds these days ) is even more complicated for a hunter, and again, the hunter has so many things to take care of, so that adding a time spending and focus needed dps rotation will make things almost impossible . A hunter needs to take care of mass MD ( if not using Roar of Sacrifice on CD for tanks with a scorpid ) , plus he has to dodge the lava wall,he has to dodge the void zone, he has to keep the pet alive trough all those fun things, he has to use well timed CD¨s ( BW/Rapid fire ) , he has to use AoE when called, he - maybe - has to go inside portals ( depends on strategy taken by the guild ) , he has to watch aggro and FD sometimes ... and the list goes on . Now, if we add a complicated dps build with a lot of GC´s and a lot of buttons, we will end up taking pills or probably fight with tanks for dps ( whichever is bad for us )

- Off Topic -

The other classes can barely keep themselves alive trough void zone/lava wall dancing, and they are only a player, where as we have an extra pet that needs to be called/kept alive trough those things, and that is already a lot of effort

- Off Topic -

Im not saying that im against these new things and i dont like them, as any new change can bring a lot of diversity and fun , thing wich is in my favour aswell . But, the hunter is already a complicated class ( we are not a lock that puts 3 dots, has an ethereal pet, and then he can light up a smoke ) ... and we already have a lot of jobs to fill and perform well , so having a simple shot rotation makes things doable

I just dont see the hunter doable with 4-5 abilities for dps while having 5+ jobs to fill at encounters ( and whoever says that he likes things spicy to see himself using a macro later wont improve anything )

 

sr20eric

Personally, I'd rather have a complicated shot rotation than having to "trap dance." I'd rather have as many shots as an affliction lock than have to stand close enough to a boss or run to a boss just to drop a trap and disengage.

But isn't this thread about 3.0.8 changes and not the rationalization of trap dancing?

 

CrowneVict

Well, true... but really, with the long list of nerfs that 3.0.8 brings, you're seeing most of us focus on the positive, which is the ES buff. SV actually becoming a viable raid dps spec is discussion-worthy.

 

Rokh

I don't understand why people continue to make these statements. Right now on the PTR, Marks and BM are within 200dps of each other (Marks coming out on top, ironically), but Survival is 800+ dps away from those two specs, and this is using LnL traditionally; ie no trap dancing, simply waiting for a proc from Serpent Sting.

That's way, way out of line with the other two specs. In fact in my current gear, it's spreadsheeting out as more DPS after the patch than BM does right now on live, before the nerfs. Explosive shot needs to be toned back again on the PTR, or we'll be doing more damage than before, let alone with this new trap dancing potentially turning out to be even more DPS.

 

Levidian

Yea I definitely don't think "trap dancing" as referred in this thread is an intended way to boost dps.

Having to control a melee fighter(pet) plus exist in and out of melee range as the same class on a boss fight creates way to much movement needed. We should be sitting back using ranged abilities and having good pet control to dodge effects with him.

 

brandiabka

Ok im BM and my shot rotation has been Serpent sting then spam the heck out of Steady Shot.... But with the patch im pretty sure if i keep doing this my DPS will be terrible. I still want to put out as much damage as possible and be vaulable to the raids just wondering if anyone has come up with a new shot rotation. Any and all advice will be greatly apperciated. Thanks!

 

Rezdan

For BM, the shot rotation only changes slightly with Arcane Shot being added to our rotation. It will basically be spammed whenever, but can also be used right before renewing Serpent Sting. Aimed shot would also be an optional shot to spam if you spec that way.

The BM rotation does not change drastically, and the change can be reduced to one additional line in your shot rotation macro.

 

Jander

Are you really suggesting that Hunter’s deserve to be able to face roll steady shot because they have a lot to do? I have seen a similar argument before and can’t really believe that they haven’t been commented on before now.

Every class has a lot to do on a Three Drake Sath fight. Doing a lot of things and managing multiple abilities is simply what separates good players from average or bad players. Blizzard has taken steps with this patch to actually make hunters be more reactive and to get rewarded for it with more DPS.

I have been running 11/53/7 with improved arcane and aimed shot/barrage since before 3.08 was announced. On our Sath 3 Drake kill I hade to use my arcane/aimed/chimera/steady shots to dps as normal being careful to adjust to not eat an ISS on a chimera, volley, tranq, MD and control my pet etc. I was able to survive the fight, do good DPS and keep my pet up the whole fight.

Wow Web Stats

Arguing that a BM hunter has it hard pressing RoS and BW at the right time and that they deserve to do good DPS without complicating matters further isn’t going to hold water with me. The 3.08 changes are geared to make things more complicated.

Change has come. Hunter’s will still be able to do good DPS but the difference between good hunters and bad hunters will be more pronounced unlike in BC and early LK where any one could go BM and Spam Steady shot.

This is the real issue at the moment. In spread sheeted modeling of my toon, I show BM at 4900, Marks @ 5,000 and SV at 5,500 without trap dancing.

I like the idea of using traps on Raid bosses, but I also think that simply having a ranged trap arrow would make the entire tree feel synergized. LnL, Sniper training and hawk eye could all play doctor together and have a good time of it then. But as the numbers stand now a skilled Trap dancer will probably approach what BM is now. Having a ranged trap would open up the OP pool to virtually every hunter. Explosive shot look like it needs to be toned back down in either case.

 

TrevvyTrev

No, he was just saying that things are complicated enough as is, so that it is unlikely or undesirable for Blizzard to introduce challenge or "skill tests" by encouraging one spec to use a somewhat clunky mechanic. The challenge instead can come from the encounters themselves. The idea also goes against the spirit of other changes they are considering. For example, they have said that affliction locks have a rotation that is too complicated, and they want to simplify it. Balancing around trapdancing (which is significantly different from simply allowing it) goes in the opposite direction.

Plus, the numbers themselves support the idea that Blizzard assumes that most LnL procs in a raid environment would come from serpent sting, or else the non-trapdancing dps tests for SV wouldn't yield such high results. But anyway, there's a lot of room between "facerolling steady" and trap ballet, and what's clear is that as things currently stand, SV can be competitive dps without excessive reliance on trapping.

 

CrowneVict

Let's not forget that the core issue is that traps are, by design, clunky. However, regardless of spec, Blizz wants us to use them. They have stated this several times. I can see them fixing traps before poo-pooing on LnL applications using their own clunky design.

It's quite possible that an influx of trap dancing dpsers will help push some new trap mechanics along. And if they nerf the LnL benefit somewhat, then so be it. Up until this point, there's been no need to fix traps in PvE... No one was using them.

 

Levidian

The "fix" that would be implemented however would probably be nothing more than bosses being immune to traps causing no LnL proc.

Regardless I find it highly unlikely that they have any intention of making it so LnL hunters have to throw down melee traps on a boss for maximum dps. The amount of dps you could gain with the new explosive damage/scaling was easily an oversight.