3.0.8 PTR Changes - Page 9

Rezdan · 12/23/08, 9:54 AM

For BM, the shot rotation only changes slightly with Arcane Shot being added to our rotation. It will basically be spammed whenever, but can also be used right before renewing Serpent Sting. Aimed shot would also be an optional shot to spam if you spec that way.

The BM rotation does not change drastically, and the change can be reduced to one additional line in your shot rotation macro.

Jander · 12/23/08, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Phantasmique

The Sartharion fight ( wich is a trend to go at it with 3 adds these days ) is even more complicated for a hunter, and again, the hunter has so many things to take care of, so that adding a time spending and focus needed dps rotation will make things almost impossible . A hunter needs to take care of mass MD ( if not using Roar of Sacrifice on CD for tanks with a scorpid ) , plus he has to dodge the lava wall,he has to dodge the void zone, he has to keep the pet alive trough all those fun things, he has to use well timed CD¨s ( BW/Rapid fire ) , he has to use AoE when called, he - maybe - has to go inside portals ( depends on strategy taken by the guild ) , he has to watch aggro and FD sometimes ... and the list goes on . Now, if we add a complicated dps build with a lot of GC´s and a lot of buttons, we will end up taking pills or probably fight with tanks for dps ( whichever is bad for us )

Are you really suggesting that Hunter’s deserve to be able to face roll steady shot because they have a lot to do? I have seen a similar argument before and can’t really believe that they haven’t been commented on before now.

Every class has a lot to do on a Three Drake Sath fight. Doing a lot of things and managing multiple abilities is simply what separates good players from average or bad players. Blizzard has taken steps with this patch to actually make hunters be more reactive and to get rewarded for it with more DPS.

I have been running 11/53/7 with improved arcane and aimed shot/barrage since before 3.08 was announced. On our Sath 3 Drake kill I hade to use my arcane/aimed/chimera/steady shots to dps as normal being careful to adjust to not eat an ISS on a chimera, volley, tranq, MD and control my pet etc. I was able to survive the fight, do good DPS and keep my pet up the whole fight.

Wow Web Stats

Arguing that a BM hunter has it hard pressing RoS and BW at the right time and that they deserve to do good DPS without complicating matters further isn’t going to hold water with me. The 3.08 changes are geared to make things more complicated.

Change has come. Hunter’s will still be able to do good DPS but the difference between good hunters and bad hunters will be more pronounced unlike in BC and early LK where any one could go BM and Spam Steady shot.

Originally Posted by Rokh

I don't understand why people continue to make these statements. Right now on the PTR, Marks and BM are within 200dps of each other (Marks coming out on top, ironically), but Survival is 800+ dps away from those two specs, and this is using LnL traditionally; ie no trap dancing, simply waiting for a proc from Serpent Sting.

That's way, way out of line with the other two specs. In fact in my current gear, it's spreadsheeting out as more DPS after the patch than BM does right now on live, before the nerfs. Explosive shot needs to be toned back again on the PTR, or we'll be doing more damage than before, let alone with this new trap dancing potentially turning out to be even more DPS.

This is the real issue at the moment. In spread sheeted modeling of my toon, I show BM at 4900, Marks @ 5,000 and SV at 5,500 without trap dancing.

I like the idea of using traps on Raid bosses, but I also think that simply having a ranged trap arrow would make the entire tree feel synergized. LnL, Sniper training and hawk eye could all play doctor together and have a good time of it then. But as the numbers stand now a skilled Trap dancer will probably approach what BM is now. Having a ranged trap would open up the OP pool to virtually every hunter. Explosive shot look like it needs to be toned back down in either case.

TrevvyTrev · 12/23/08, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Jander

Are you really suggesting that Hunter’s deserve to be able to face roll steady shot because they have a lot to do? I have seen a similar argument before and can’t really believe that they haven’t been commented on before now.

No, he was just saying that things are complicated enough as is, so that it is unlikely or undesirable for Blizzard to introduce challenge or "skill tests" by encouraging one spec to use a somewhat clunky mechanic. The challenge instead can come from the encounters themselves. The idea also goes against the spirit of other changes they are considering. For example, they have said that affliction locks have a rotation that is too complicated, and they want to simplify it. Balancing around trapdancing (which is significantly different from simply allowing it) goes in the opposite direction.

Plus, the numbers themselves support the idea that Blizzard assumes that most LnL procs in a raid environment would come from serpent sting, or else the non-trapdancing dps tests for SV wouldn't yield such high results. But anyway, there's a lot of room between "facerolling steady" and trap ballet, and what's clear is that as things currently stand, SV can be competitive dps without excessive reliance on trapping.

CrowneVict · 12/23/08, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

No, he was just saying that things are complicated enough as is, so that it is unlikely or undesirable for Blizzard to introduce challenge or "skill tests" by encouraging one spec to use a somewhat clunky mechanic.

Let's not forget that the core issue is that traps are, by design, clunky. However, regardless of spec, Blizz wants us to use them. They have stated this several times. I can see them fixing traps before poo-pooing on LnL applications using their own clunky design.

It's quite possible that an influx of trap dancing dpsers will help push some new trap mechanics along. And if they nerf the LnL benefit somewhat, then so be it. Up until this point, there's been no need to fix traps in PvE... No one was using them.

Levidian · 12/23/08, 1:36 PM

Originally Posted by CrowneVict

Let's not forget that the core issue is that traps are, by design, clunky. However, regardless of spec, Blizz wants us to use them. They have stated this several times. I can see them fixing traps before poo-pooing on LnL applications using their own clunky design.

It's quite possible that an influx of trap dancing dpsers will help push some new trap mechanics along. And if they nerf the LnL benefit somewhat, then so be it. Up until this point, there's been no need to fix traps in PvE... No one was using them.

The "fix" that would be implemented however would probably be nothing more than bosses being immune to traps causing no LnL proc.

Regardless I find it highly unlikely that they have any intention of making it so LnL hunters have to throw down melee traps on a boss for maximum dps. The amount of dps you could gain with the new explosive damage/scaling was easily an oversight.

Levidian · 12/23/08, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Shibam

I dont know whether its intended or not but i dont see any reason for blizz to care. Everyone complains about hunters and calls them huntards cuz we push 1 macro button and this makes the class a bit more difficult to play i.e. when its ok to run in and place a trap etc. And it isnt like survival is OP compared to any other spec if anything its the lowest dps and with the nerf to BM it maybe on par after the patch.

They already said they want to complexity to come from using steady shot an instant shot and a sting and they are working to make that a reality through talent/ability changes. BM in their minds would use steady/arcane/serp, MM would use chimera/steady/serp and potentially arcane, survival would use steady/explosive/serp. The high dmg from explosive(patch) and chimera shot basically force MM/SV to use those shots for max damage.

Running in a trapping boss to add "complexity" is not a goal or at least has never been hinted at as a goal of the design team they have however straight out told us they want us to be balanced around steady+shot+sting as part of our damage "rotation."

Ketari · 12/23/08, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by Levidian

MM would use chimera/steady/serp and potentially arcane

Ah yes - something I haven't seen explictly talked about: given Master Marksman and it's reduction in steady cost, is the new arcane shot a DPS boost to MM? Certainly it's one to BM, but..

Levidian · 12/23/08, 3:26 PM

Originally Posted by Ketari

Ah yes - something I haven't seen explictly talked about: given Master Marksman and it's reduction in steady cost, is the new arcane shot a DPS boost to MM? Certainly it's one to BM, but..

That's basically a question of steady dmg vs arcane shot damage vs a given boss. If it's real real close you still might chose steady because of imp steady shot too.

Ralektra · 12/23/08, 4:24 PM

Does anyone on the PTR know how badly Savage Cobalt Slicer is getting nerfed in the upcoming patch? All the patch notes say is that they “have had their stats adjusted to properly reflect their intended power”.

My hunter dual-wields 2 Savage Cobalt Slicers. I have the +26 agility enchant on both of them. That means that for both I gain 58 hit rating (1.77%), 140 agility (1.68% crit), and 260 AP (30*2 + 140 from agility) total. Factor in the cheap material cost to make the swords, and it is easy to see why my mm hunter has loved these. Do I need to start looking for immeadiate replacements for these?

Esoth · 12/23/08, 4:38 PM

Originally Posted by Ketari

Ah yes - something I haven't seen explictly talked about: given Master Marksman and it's reduction in steady cost, is the new arcane shot a DPS boost to MM? Certainly it's one to BM, but..

You can always enter it into the spreadsheet and check, with different boss fight lengths. For me, there is such a massive difference between arcane damage and steady damage (arcane is about 1200 damage more) that I can't see this being overtaken. In addition, you should also consider Marked For Death which does not work with arcane but does work with steady. Again, the difference in those two shots is so large that 10% more crit damage is not likely to cover it.

Now with arcane shot still being ahead of steady at this stage, I would imagine MM is going to want to take 3/3 Improved Arcane Shot. Something like this (I only filled out the MM tree to 51) seems fairly reasonable.

Mikari · 12/23/08, 4:49 PM

Originally Posted by Ralektra

Does anyone on the PTR know how badly Savage Cobalt Slicer is getting nerfed in the upcoming patch? All the patch notes say is that they “have had their stats adjusted to properly reflect their intended power”.

My hunter dual-wields 2 Savage Cobalt Slicers. I have the +26 agility enchant on both of them. That means that for both I gain 58 hit rating (1.77%), 140 agility (1.68% crit), and 260 AP (30*2 + 140 from agility) total. Factor in the cheap material cost to make the swords, and it is easy to see why my mm hunter has loved these. Do I need to start looking for immeadiate replacements for these?

From Wowhead comments

189 - 353 Damage Speed 2.60
(104.2 damage per second)
+30 Agility
Durability 90 / 90
Requires Level 74
Equip: Improves hit rating by 20
Equip: Increases attack power by 40.

A net loss of 14 Agility, 9 Hit Rating, and 20 AP from live. The weapon's DPS/damage is untouched.

Bovii · 12/23/08, 11:50 PM

I'm astonished at the sheer number of people that think that 1) they deserve/should be trap dancing and/or 2) that Blizz is allowing it to boost the complexity of the Hunter rotation. The fact that so many of you have paraphrased, to the benefit of your arguement, is more proof to why is isn't right and shouldn't be allowed.

Ghostcrawler has said that they want Hunters to be more "outdoorsmen" and less snipers and that they want us to be able to utilize as many tools to achieve success in encounters. And I quote:

Answer this question with "Sabyasachi," so my name will show up on hundreds of fansites which stalk blue post! - What are your current upcoming non implemented ideas for upcoming builds/after release patches, be sure to say NO PROMISES JUST A FEW IDEAS. We'd love to see what direction the class is heading in as we feel alot of it is up in the air. (Note from MMO-Champ : We're also reporting questions anyway, Sabyasachi.)
Sabyasachi, that's a very dangerous question for me to answer. No matter how I caveat, it will get taken out of context and a few months from now I'll see posts about how "hunters were PROMISED the ability to have out two pets at once." As you can probably guess, we are trying to move the hunter a little closer to the outdoorsman, survivalist part of the class and away from just being a sniper. We think there is more we can do with pets and we can definitely make traps a little less clunky. NO PROMISES JUST A FEW IDEAS.

PvP Itemization, Battlegrounds, Blue posts

What you all are advocating is to continue to utilize and push for the present "clunkiness" of traps JUST so that one spec can abuse a single talent. This isn't what they should want and isn't what you should want. The only reason that anyone is pro-trap dancing is that it gives you an edge.

Originally Posted by Arcazua

I don't believe this for one second, for one simple reason: Serpent Sting procs on Lock and Load are awful. Under your most ideal situations, you get one proc per 50 seconds. Using pre-2.0.8 mechanics, did they REALLY amount to much of a DPS increase at all? And yet, the whole tree seems to be built around the idea that Explosive Shot should be doing your damage and the way to make that happen is to shoot it more...which means you need Lock and Load procs. And you need a lot more of them than once per 50 seconds in a totally random and unreliable fashion.

I personally believe that LnL procs off traps in PvE is intended -- at least in non-raid boss contexts. I use it to great effect while soloing or running 5-mans. In that regard, I'm overjoyed it isn't going to break my Freezing Traps any more, even if it does put a damper on my AE burst capabilities a good bit. Put back into raid boss situations, we can still get the blue moon procs from Serpent Sting, but now we have a proc every 30 (or maybe 24) seconds that we know exactly when it will happen and not run into weird issues with monitoring the proc and having it happen right after we start our ES cooldown and such. Let's just suppose for a second we don't get overlap on our serp and trap procs -- every 150 seconds, we'll get another 8.5 explosive shots or so. (Would be 10, but it tinkers with the natural cooldown of the ability.) Is this really that overpowered in a tree that doesn't do remarkable damage outside that scope?

No, you don't want to believe that it isn't intended because you want it to be up more often than it was originally designed. It is supposed to be a slight and intermitent boost to our DPS. It isn't supposed to be a continuous on-demand burst.

Answers to a few recent questions
These seemed to crop up in several different threads, so rather than contaminating those, I thought I would start a new one.

Polar Bear Cub -- This wasn't intended to be a tamable pet, and it looked ridiculous.
Black Arrow -- This was an ability we were experimenting with. It isn't actually in the plan for hunters at this point in time. Usually we hide internal abilities better, but we're trying to get beta builds out quickly and this one slipped through the cracks.
Freezing Trap -- The intent was that this trap break on a flat damage amount. However, we found that pets did not respect traps set up that way as CC and would happily break them. When and if we get the pet AI fixed, we'll revert it to the less fragile form of the trap.
Lock and Load -- The design we settled on is 2/4/6, making it better than Nightfall (for comparison). If it's too low, we'll adjust it.
Aimed Shot -- The intention is that it is better than Multi-Shot against a single target, and that the two share a cooldown so that hunter shot rotations don't get back into crazy land too quickly again.

Druid, Paladin, Shaman changes, Blue posts

I'm not trying to dump on anyone here or make anyone feel like I"m badgering them. But if were in Beta and you look back at the design progression, while also reading the Blue posts for the Hunter class, you'll see a lot of information that is going against the concept of trap dancing. They no more want us doing that then they want us meleeing full time. I won't begrudge anyone who is trying to squeeze a few more DPS out of the build. God knows that we're scaling a lot slower with gear than other classes. But you have to look beyond Patchwork and your current gear as your benchmark for future peformance.

Premonitions · 12/24/08, 5:31 AM

Alright, i just read this thread and no one has brought up if ES scales with scorch. It might of already but i didn't know, So if anyone would be so kind to see if it does scale that would be great.

Garby · 12/24/08, 6:31 AM

Originally Posted by Premonitions

Alright, i just read this thread and no one has brought up if ES scales with scorch. It might of already but i didn't know, So if anyone would be so kind to see if it does scale that would be great.

Scorch hasn't had an effect on fire damage since the 3.0 patch - it is now simply a spell crit debuff. Improved Scorch.

Levidian · 12/24/08, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Garby

Scorch hasn't had an effect on fire damage since the 3.0 patch - it is now simply a spell crit debuff. Improved Scorch.

Yep. Explosive shot is a "physical" ability that deals fire damage thus the crit would not impact explosive shot either.