Can't you just calculate the DPS you would get for each of those scenarios before you use that last explosive shot? The last explosive shot will start your normal rotation.
There are many ways to calculate it. But every way I've run it so far, after 3.0.8 the way to go on an L&L proc is ES/ES/ES.
Even if we take into account doing an ES+0.5/ES+0.5/ES (or ES+0.5/ES+0.5 if you want to calculate through DPS only) that's a 1 second delay on starting up your normal rotation for 2 ticks of ES damage. If your ES is doing 40% of your total DPS, and if 2 ticks of ES is greater than 40% of your total DPS per second (and it's a 1 sec calc, so very easy to figure out)...
Ouch. My head hurts. Basically, if 2 ticks of ES damage on average do more damage than 40% of of your overall DPS in 1 second, it may be worth delaying.
Then again, this doesn't factor in anything like crit based procs (GftT, EW, HP, etc), so there may be some minor side effects to delaying your ES by 1 sec. Plus, it's probably tough as nails to time that properly, so unless you're truly pro and can time a shot that accurately, simple may be better.
Both scenarios start with the LnL proc and ES coming off CD and end with a last ES triggering ES-CD. There's no way to squeeze in another ES. This is just plain maths, requiring you to be haste capped.
Because after each L&L proc, B & C are 3 seconds ahead of A on the next ES they can do. At 9.0 sec (B &C) you can cast the next ES. You have to wait until 12 seconds after the L&L to get the 2nd ES if you're weaving steadies in between.
That means when the next L&L procs, you can fire it off 3 seconds before the other survival hunter who is weaving in steadies. And at the end of that cycle, you'll be a full 6 seconds ahead (or more accurately, have fired off one more full ES).
In other words, if one tick of ES does more damage than a steady shot, you're better off using ES (even if you clip). If one tick of ES does more damage than an Arcane Shot, you're better off using an ES. You want to start that 6 sec cooldown from the final L&L burst as soon as possible.
I found a major mistake in my calculations. It should be SS/SS/SS/ES.
Now let me accumulate again
Every second LnL rotation you get 3 Steadies and 1 Explosive for free.
A) ES/SS/ES/SS/ES (7.5 sec)
2xLnL = (9 ticks of ES + 2 Steadies) * 2 = 18 ticks of ES + 4 Steadies
B) ES/ES/ES (4.5 sec)
2xLnL+1xSSSE = (7 ticks of ES) * 2 + 3 ticks of ES + 3 Steadies = 17 ticks of ES + 3 Steadies
C) ES/AS/ES (4.5 sec)
2xLnL+1xSSSE = (6 ticks of ES + 1 Arcane) * 2 + 3 ticks of ES + 3 Steadies = 15 ticks of ES + 3 Steadies + 2 Arcane
Your problem with B is that you get 1 more Explosive Shot every 2 procs but lose 0,6667 Explosive Shots per proc. That's buying 3 ticks for 4 ticks which is bad.
Just did some more calculations and it looks like I am wrong. Based on both a 30 sec trap and 24 sec trap (if you wanted Resourcefulness talents for some reason), you end up losing 1 steady and 1 ES tick per 2 trap cycle if you go ES/ES/ES on an L&L proc.
The 6 sec cooldown of ES and the 24/30 sec trap cooldowns have too much synergy. Heck, even with 26 or 28 sec trap cooldowns, the same things happen (-1 steady, -1 ES tick per 2 trap cycles). I stand corrected. Bugger. I was really hoping simpler would be better.
In my defense, for any fight where the expected duration is less than 1 trap cycle, feel free to spam away ES on your L&L proc. It doesn't turn in favor of ES/SS/ES/SS/ES until that point.
There are many ways to calculate it. But every way I've run it so far, after 3.0.8 the way to go on an L&L proc is ES/ES/ES.
Even if we take into account doing an ES+0.5/ES+0.5/ES (or ES+0.5/ES+0.5 if you want to calculate through DPS only) that's a 1 second delay on starting up your normal rotation for 2 ticks of ES damage.
How did you determine that? Assuming a 1.6 GCD/steady shot speed with 100ms latency, I get the following (for my gear and projected talents in 3.0.8, from Shandara's SS)
// interleave ES/SS
0.0 ES 3100
1.0 tick 3100
1.6 SS 2000
2 tick 3100
3.2 ES 3100
4.2 tick 3100
4.8 SS 2000
5.2 tick 3100
6.4 ES 3100
7.4 tick 3100
8.0 SS 2000
8.4 tick 3100 = 9*3100 +3*2000 /9.6 secs
9.6 SS...
// spam ES
0.0 ES 3100
1.0 tick 3100
1.6 ES 3100
2.6 tick 3100
3.2 ES 3100
4.2 tick 3100
4.8 SS 2000
5.2 tick 3100
6.4 SS 2000
8.0 SS 2000 = 7*3100 + 3*2000 /9.6 secs
9.6 SS...
// delay ES slightly
0.0 ES 3100
1.0 tick 3100
2.0 tick 3100
2.0 ES 3100
3.0 tick 3100
4.0 tick 3100
4.0 ES 3100
5.0 tick 3100
5.6 SS 2000
6.0 tick 3100
7.2 SS 2000
8.8 SS 2000 = 9*3100 +3*2000 /10.4 secs
10.4 SS...
The above indicates it's best to interleave a GCD special (SS or Aimed if it's up) in between ES's so as not to lose the last tick of ES -- which is free DPS as that tick doesn't cost a GCD.
How did you determine that? Assuming a 1.6 GCD/steady shot speed with 100ms latency, I get the following (for my gear and projected talents in 3.0.8, from Shandara's SS)
...
The above indicates it's best to interleave a GCD special (SS or Aimed if it's up) in between ES's so as not to lose the last tick of ES -- which is free DPS as that tick doesn't cost a GCD.
I don't understand why you're ending your test at those times. You calculate the damage for the interleave example after an ES tick, but for the other two you are ending it after a couple of steady shots. They're at different points into a "normal" rotation - which should be removed since it's a common factor of all of those methods. I would think something like this would make more sense:
// interleave ES/SS
0.0 ES 3100
1.0 tick 3100
1.6 SS 2000
2 tick 3100
3.2 ES 3100
4.2 tick 3100
4.8 SS 2000
5.2 tick 3100
6.4 ES 3100
7.4 tick 3100
8.0 SS 2000
8.4 tick 3100
9.6 SS 2000
11.2 SS 2000
12.8 (normal rotation resumes with ES) = (9*3100+5*2000)/12.8 = 2960.94
// spam ES
0.0 ES 3100
1.0 tick 3100
1.6 ES 3100
2.6 tick 3100
3.2 ES 3100
4.2 tick 3100
4.8 SS 2000
5.2 tick 3100
6.4 SS 2000
8.0 SS 2000
9.6 (normal rotation resumes with ES) = (7*3100 + 3*2000)/9.6 = 2885.42
// delay ES slightly
0.0 ES 3100
1.0 tick 3100
2.0 tick 3100
2.0 ES 3100
3.0 tick 3100
4.0 tick 3100
4.0 ES 3100
5.0 tick 3100
5.6 SS 2000
6.0 tick 3100
7.2 SS 2000
8.8 SS 2000
10.4 (normal rotation resumes with ES) = (9*3100 + 3*2000)/10.4 = 3259.61
Try it with higher AP/crit (explosive scales much better than steady) and you should see ES spam beating out weaving.
// interleave ES/Arcane
0.0 ES 3100
1.0 tick 3100
1.6 AS 3000
2.0 tick 3100
3.2 ES 3100
4.2 tick 3100
4.8 SS 2000
5.2 tick 3100
6.4 SS 2000
8.0 SS 2000
9.6 (normal rotation resumes with ES) = (5*3100+3000+3*2000)/9.6 = 2552.08
//interleave ES/Aimed shot with delayed second-second tick
0.0 ES 3100
1.0 tick 3100
1.6 Aim 3000
2.0 tick 3100
3.2 ES 3100
4.2 tick 3100
5.2 tick 3100
5.2 ES 3100
6.2 tick 3100
6.8 SS 2000
7.2 tick 3100
8.4 ss 2000
10.0 nothing
10.2 (normal rotation resumes with ES) = (9*3100+3000+2*2000)/10.2 = 3421.57
The messy looking aimed shot turns out to be the best (if its available); you'll notice there are actually 2 delay periods, once after the second tick of the second ES, and .2s after the last steady.
Calculating out the subsequent ES rotation may be in order here and unrounded figures are worthy of this topic instead of ballpark. This is probably good stuff to add to the survival thread header once its all hashed out. I'll mess around with that when I'm not at work.
All right, I expanded to the full trap-dancing rotation. Assumptions: 100msec latency, 1.6 sec GCD, 24 sec trap cooldown.
// interleave ES/SS
0.0 ES E
1.0 tick E
1.6 SS ..S
2 tick E
3.2 ES E
4.2 tick E
4.8 SS ..S
5.2 tick E
6.4 ES E
7.4 tick E
8.0 SS ..S
8.4 tick E
9.6 SS ..S
11.2 SS ..S
12.8 ES E
13.8 tick E
14.4 SS ..S
14.8 tick E
16.0 SS ..S
17.6 SS ..S
19.2 ES E (delayed .4 due to GCD)
20.2 tick E
20.8 SS ..S
21.2 tick E
22.4 SS ..S
24.0 SS ..S
25.6 <new trap>
27.2 [repeat] total 15E + 11S / 27.2 secs
// spam ES
0.0 ES E
1.0 tick E
1.6 ES E
2.6 tick E
3.2 ES E
4.2 tick E
4.8 SS ..S
5.2 tick E
6.4 SS ..S
8.0 SS ..S
9.6 ES E (delayed .4 due to GCD)
10.6 tick E
11.2 SS ..S
11.6 tick E
12.8 SS ..S
14.4 SS ..S
16.0 ES E (delayed .4 due to GCD)
17.0 tick E
17.6 SS ..S
18.0 tick E
19.2 SS ..S
20.8 SS ..S
22.4 ES E (delayed .4 due to GCD)
23.4 tick E
24.0 SS ..S
24.4 tick E
25.6 SS ..S
27.2 <new trap>
28.8 [repeat] total 16E + 11S / 28.8 secs
// delay ES slightly
0.0 ES E
1.0 tick E
2.0 tick E
2.0 ES E
3.0 tick E
4.0 tick E
4.0 ES E
5.0 tick E
5.6 SS ..S
6.0 tick E
7.2 SS ..S
8.8 SS ..S
10.4 ES E
11.4 tick E
12.0 SS ..S
12.4 tick E
13.6 SS ..S
15.2 SS ..S
16.8 ES E (delayed .4 due to GCD)
17.8 tick E
18.4 SS ..S
18.8 tick E
20.0 SS ..S
21.6 SS ..S
23.2 SS ..S (extra SS inserted to give time to drop new trap)
24.8 <new trap>
26.4 [repeat] total 15E + 10S / 26.4 secs
e > 5.5s spam beats interleave (i.e., if ES tick does 5.5x damage of steady shot, spam is good)
e > 1.53s delay beats interleave
So, my recommendation is do interleave unless you're insanely good at timing your shots. Spam is bad.
Replacing any SS above with arcane is bad because that costs you an ES which does more damage. Replacing any SS above with aimed shot is good because aimed does more damage. I'd just as soon keep the rotation simple and replace two SS's with 2 aimeds.
call me crazy but has anyone else tried forgoing Sniper Training and putting 2/3 in Resourcefullness and Trap Mastery? We would basically just stand outside of melee range and drop Immolation Trap as much as possible. I tried this on test so far and got my highest dps numbers.
call me crazy but has anyone else tried forgoing Sniper Training and putting 2/3 in Resourcefullness and Trap Mastery? We would basically just stand outside of melee range and drop Immolation Trap as much as possible. I tried this on test so far and got my highest dps numbers.
Looks like there are more Scorpid/Cat changes to come before this patch goes live.
I don’t think I was clear enough: the PTR build does not reflect the new numbers for cat and scorpid. If I remember, I will post what those new numbers are since there seems to be a lot of concern about it (but I don't have them in front of me).
6) If you think that no hunter cares about the look of their pet, you are just wrong. Very optimized players might be willing to tame an untextured cube if it had the highest dps. However, a great many hunters (I would argue probably even the majority) rolled their class because they wanted to tame pets. Being able to tame exotic pets is very exciting for them.
Is it just me or this is in the line with "The most hilarious things you can hear"?
Talents should be build towards end-game raiding and Arena, imo. I know this will sound childish from me, but with GC's logic, why don't they give 51-tp which will produce 10g per day. I'm sure a great many hunters (I would argue probably even the majority) would love it very much.
Unless I don't understand the context, I don't see anything wrong with what he said in that quote. He said looks and uniqueness are important to a lot of hunters, and that's probably true. I think Beast Mastery is going to be perfectly acceptable power-wise after the patch, so it's nothing to get annoyed at really. I don't think he's implying that it's okay for Beast Mastery to suck because it lets you use cool looking pets and thus it's balanced.
Unless I don't understand the context, I don't see anything wrong with what he said in that quote. He said looks and uniqueness are important to a lot of hunters, and that's probably true. I think Beast Mastery is going to be perfectly acceptable power-wise after the patch, so it's nothing to get annoyed at really. I don't think he's implying that it's okay for Beast Mastery to suck because it lets you use cool looking pets and thus it's balanced.
The overall context consisted of him downplaying the criticisms directed towards the 51 point talent being "useless" (stated by more than one person in the original thread). His words in that bullet point (and one or two others) seemed to suggest having the ability to tame something 'cool looking' regardless of it's potential to increase your damage was worth something in weighing its viability as a 51 point talent. I think that is what myself, and several others, take issue with. That said, he did mention they would consider revising pet talent trees such that having those four extra talent points would allow you to obtain higher end pet talents to potentially increase overall damage. However, I am somewhat disappointed that is on the back burner and not part and parcel with the changes planned for 3.08.
Altering Readiness so that it doesn't apply to Bestial Wrath merely treated the symptom. They ignored the root of the problem which was that the 51 point talent simply isn't worth having. Perhaps it will be in 3.08 indirectly as a result of the yet unseen adjustments to cat and scorpid damage -- only time will tell.
The overall context consisted of him downplaying the criticisms directed towards the 51 point talent being "useless" (stated by more than one person in the original thread). His words in that bullet point (and one or two others) seemed to suggest having the ability to tame something 'cool looking' regardless of it's potential to increase your damage was worth something in weighing its viability as a 51 point talent. I think that is what myself, and several others, take issue with. That said, he did mention they would consider revising pet talent trees such that having those four extra talent points would allow you to obtain higher end pet talents to potentially increase overall damage. However, I am somewhat disappointed that is on the back burner and not part and parcel with the changes planned for 3.08.
Altering Readiness so that it doesn't apply to Bestial Wrath merely treated the symptom. They ignored the root of the problem which was that the 51 point talent simply isn't worth having. Perhaps it will be in 3.08 indirectly as a result of the yet unseen adjustments to cat and scorpid damage -- only time will tell.
I'm not sure I see why people fuss over BM's 51 pointer not being a substantial dps increase in an already optimized raid.
In 10 mans, or perhaps less organized/optimized 25s, you'll might find that an exotic pet which brings the major armor debuff to be a significant contribution to raid dps (it's perfectly feasible to run 10s without a warrior). The four extra talent points generally give the pet more survivability, which is beneficial for less experienced hunters, or those who are careless.
As far as I can tell, the talent is targeted less at "bleeding edge" raiders, and more at your casual raiders, who can really use the extra pet help, or need to provide a debuff for their raid. Those people are probably more likely to care about the aesthetics exotic pets as well, but that's really just icing on the cake for blizzard.
It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
<Bad> Dragonmaw US www.damnwesuck.com
12/13 [25] Heroic - Recruiting exceptional players.
It's not worth having because exotic pets are significantly worse than non-exotic pets right now. If the exotic pets come out even dps-wise with the non-exotic pets, I think it's a viable talent. Especially after the Readiness nerf. Of course I think exotic pets should do slightly more dps than the other options, but I'll probably spend a point there as long as they're at least doing equal dps(assuming I'm even spec'ing BM at that point.)
I think people undervalue the benefit the 4 extra pet talent points Beast Mastery gives simply because they don't increase dps. I mean, it certainly should be a slightly better talent, but it's not that bad. It's close to being perfectly balanced I think.
I think my concern about the upcoming patch lies with the 51st point talent. I'm more worried about boss fights like thaddius or loatheb where the buffs are not affecting out pets. This is even more severe in the case of bm hunters where a huge amount of dps that caused by the pets. Our dps isn't scaled as much compared to the other classes, and i don't think that's fair.
I think there was someone who brought up how blessing of might is affecting both pet and its master which causes the huge dps of bm hunters. I think there was one blue entry in mmochampion about how they may look into this issue. And i hope that in the next patch, there will be solutions to this problems, not just the buffing and the nerfing.
On the dps balance note, I think one of the main factors that inflated BM hunter dps numbers initially was fight duration. When most of us started Naxx, many of the encounters had the perfect duration for us, which is slightly under 4 minutes. As gear became better each week, fight duration went down and hunters have been steadily dropping on a lot of encounters. Now many encounters end right before we can get off our second set of BW+RF+Readiness.
Point being, hunter dps is heavily influenced by fight duration right now. I hope Blizzard takes this into account, because as I posted in the BB, not every encounter is Patchwerk. There are a lot of encounters in which hunters never did top the damage.
I think the problem most end game raiders have with the 51 point talent is the fact that it is designed for the less optimized and less experienced players. If it wasn't the hardest talent point to get in the tree, I wouldn't have such a problem with it, but a 51 point talent, just like a 41 in TBC, or a 31 in Vanilla should be something that can significantly increase dps for both the majority of the game's players and the much smaller group of high end players attempting to squeeze everything they can out of their class. If you put cutesy things in the game to make the majority of players feel cool and look awesome that's fine, and probably a healthy thing for the game considering those people keep it running. But don't put something so worthless to end game players in such a crucial spot. They could have easily just put in the new pet families and let everyone have the chance to tame them and given us a useful talent instead, or just made it so that exotic pets really were a large dps increase over normal pets. Neither of those are the case though and it forces BM hunters to put another point into a lesser tier talent or into a completely different tree, its just not solid design.
Here are the cat and scorpid numbers for anyone who wants to theorycraft them. These will be in the next patch (3.0.8) even though they were not on the PTR.
We also did fix several pet families not getting their correct stat adjustment: Wasps, Spirit Beasts, Rhinos and Silithids were affected I believe.
Spirit Strike should work with Longevity now and has an initial damage component that can crit.
Not sure why it wouldn't work with Kill Command, but I'll look into that.
Rank 6 Scorpid Poison - 20 base Nature damage per tick, ticks every 2 sec for 10 sec, 0.04 coefficient, 1 stack max
Rank 6 Rake - 29 base physical damage, plus 21 base damage per tick, ticks every 3 sec for 9 sec, 0.06 coefficient
Rank 6 Spirit Strike - 50 base Arcane damage, plus 50 damage per tick, ticks every 6 sec for 6 sec (it ticks twice), 0.049 coefficient
My comment about many hunters caring about what their pets look like was just that, not that 51 BM was intended to be a cosmetic talent point. If you just hate dinosaurs and core hounds, I'm not sure what more we can do in the short term, but show me other exotics than don't stack up and perhaps we can adjust their numbers. Longer-term we'd like to explore just letting you be able to increase damage with the bonus talent points.
GC: In our most recent testing BM and MM were neck and neck and Survival was probably a little high. We might tone down Explosive Shot before it goes out the door.
01/02/09, 12:59 PM
