I have completed my test of 10,000 shots using 0/0/0 spec, 8% hit from gear and ~20% crit (closest I could manage with my gear). I am afraid the results muddy the water a bit.

I am seeing a 5.39% crit loss, which is more or less 0.6% more than the expected 4.8% loss, but not as much as Thayer was getting using FA for part of his hit. In fact, it is half as much.

Test done on Darnassus Heroic Dummy:

Heroic Test Dummy -- 10,000 Autoshots
spec 0/0/0
268 (8.17%) hit rating from gear

20.17% Paper Doll crit
14.78% Actual crit
5.39% Crit depression
Screenshot
Screenshot (Including info on blocked damage)

In one of my posts in the old thread, I noted that most of the test results posted in the hunter forums for various reasons showed ~5.3% crit loss on the heroic dummy. I had speculated that this was a built-in higher rate of crit loss for ranged compared to the melee rate of 4.8%. This did not seem to be borne out by further tests I reported in that post and later in the thread, which showed 4.8% crit loss for ranged too.

I have also noted that tests with more or less full specs seemed to incur the 5.3% rate while stripped down specs got 4.8%. However, it is also true that the tests giving the 5.3% rate were with paperdoll crit of 20-22%, while the tests with stripped down specs were also done with stripped down gear and low paperdoll crit rates. It seems to be the crit rate rather than the talent composition that is affecting the results.

While the blocked shots could explain the reduced crit rate found at 20% paperdoll crit, I really don't understand why blocked shots would not also affect a 10% paperdoll crit rate in the same way. I am leaning towards diminished returns as the explanation, as dssurge suggested, except it may not be unintentional. The final test results on the higher crit rate that Thayer is working on will be enlightening, and Focused Aim isn't completely off the hook yet -- the test with FA showed 6.0% crit loss vs 5.4% loss fully hit capped from gear. Unless 10,000 shots is not enough to eliminate the RNG when looking at such a small difference...

I haven't been following the melee crit loss discussion in the rogue forum to see if they have been noticing the same effect.

Well the main difference now is you had on 425 shots blocked, or 4.25 percent while I had 4.96 percent, thus creating a range for blocked damage shots.

My first 5000 shots where I am recording block damage values, is showing 5.34 percent blocked shots, and a higher crit reduction rate then you are showing.

I am going to get 5000 more shots with block values recorded, and then I will spec 5 points into crit, and with the piece of gear I got recently, I can test at 33.52 crit, 263 hit from gear.

This is my raiding block for the week for the next 3 nights, so I probably wont get anymore data until this weekend.

Where are you seeing how many blocked shots I had? I see the amount of damage that was blocked, but not the number of shots.

Do you think the difference in block/crit loss between my test and yours is merely RNG because of the small differences we are looking for, or the result of using FA?

Also, I should clarify that when I said "diminishing returns," that probably wasn't the best choice of wording. I was not referring to pvp style DR against a single target, but meant that the higher the crit rate, the higher the crit loss. During my test, the crit percent fluctuated, first down, then back up (but not as much), then down again (but not as much), so I don't think merely fighting the same target for a long time causes the crit loss to increase. I suppose block could be the mechanic for this diminished effect -- the more crit you have, the higher the block rate used against you?

If we are going to try tests using Lethal Shots, I can reach 30% crit I think with 5% hit from gear and Focused Aim. I'll try to fit it in over the course of the week since I will not be raiding again til the weekend.

Currently I am not able to contribute data, but 2 thoughts strike me while reading this.

1: Hit cap. We assume its 8% through the various tests, but is it concievable that hit somehow affects hits and crits differently? This idea pops up from the attack table system that has been used to make tanks uncrushable, pushing crushing blows off the table. Could the same somehow affect hit/crit distribution now? After all we know something has been changed a lot with our chance to hit with both a lower hit percent required and with a greater crit depression.

2: Could it be that bosses have been changed to use the same defensive table as players, so the base crit depression is the same, while the actual crit depression can increase depending on the amount of other defensive abilities (for lack of better word) the boss / target has? So a higher chance to block pushes crit off the chart.

From what I'm reading nothing indicates that its resillience that has been added to the bosses (or am I mistaken?) so I try to think outside the box to come up with explanations for hinky results.

From observing my combat log, and changing AP and such, i found that the amount blocked by the dummy is always 76. I took the blocked damage you had, divided by 76, and it always comes out to an integer.

SO 32300 / 76 = 425, and 425 out of 10000 shots is 4.25 percent.





I think we may have a more complex pattern occuring. What i thin is happening is there is some kind of "crit compression" occurring at higher levels of crit, and FA some how interacts to make this more apparent at lower crit levels. Right now i am more concerned at testing with Fully capped gear to find a baseline for the compression, if there is indeed one. I think the blocked damage shots are somehow involved, but we need more data, since s you stated, we are dealing with a small margin of error here, and a large sample size is needed to eliminate RNR as a factor.

So indeed, the hypothesis at this time is that the higher you crit rate becomes, the more crit you lose, due to some of the blocked damage shots being shots that were supposed to crit, and thus the block negated the crit. If you have A higher crit rate, then more of those shots will be blocked. The assumptive value i am operating at now is 5 percent of shots will be blocked, so if 5 percent of your crits become blocked and thus negated as crits, then you will see it become more evident at higher levels of crit.

Diminished returns is something I have though always applied to crit, and I always saw passing evidence that at a certain point, stacking crit no longer had as much of an effect on DPS returns. This may be due to what we may be finding here, or it may be due to some other factors, such as a "cap" on effective crit. In any case, what we are finding here may be a case of "diminished returns" on stacking crit, when it comes to attacking boss level mobs.



This will help as well, as it will expand our range table for FA tests, and we can see if there is a higher "crit compression" at this level with FA as well.

If you look at my more recent tests, I am doing them in 1000 shot blocks, then doing the average myself, so I can get a better idea of the range of RNR per 1000 shots. I am shooting 1000 shots, and then recording my crit and such, as well as blocked shots, and then I am clearing Recount and starting a new record. This way we can observe the minute differences, as well as giving us the option of stopping a test midway and doing it in parts.

Also, as long as we keep the parameters such as spec, hit and crit the same, then we can keep expanding a test sample until we basically get no evidence of RNR being effective and corrupting our returns.

One of the other things I am doing is going to great pains to be EXACTLY hit capped, including re-gemming. This way, for now, I can eliminate the possibility of that extra 0.1 to 0.2 percent hit some how effecting my returns.



I have considered this as well, so in the future I am going to run a test at approximately the same crit rating I have in my previous test, but with ~ 11 percent hit from gear. I can achieve this by switching out my crit trinkets for hit trinkets, then using lethal shots to replace the lost crit. Lethal shots has already been proven as a non factor in crit returns. I have also considered, since I can craft some gear running a expertise test to see if it reduces the amount of blocked damage shots, and that in turn replaces my crit loss. I don't see expertise as a solution to this regardless, because itemizing for 5 percent expertise to gain back 1 - 2 percent crit seems like its not really a worthwhile trade off.



This is pretty much what I am getting at by observing blocked damage shots, and I explained it in the above responses to Rosamonde. It occurs to me we should run test on the level 80 dummy at appropriate hit cap, and see if we get the same amount of blocked damage shots as well. This would be a good way to try to determine if the blocked damage is a static value, or something that increases as level difference increases, thus meaning we suffer from more crit depression on higher level mobs, such as raid bosses.

If resilience was a factor, then we would see a set amount of crit reduction regardless of crit percentage, and we would also see a reduction in the crit damage averages compared to normal hits, something I observed as well and found no evidence of occurring. As an example, in Rosamonde's test, her hit average was 564, while here crit average was 1172, so she was actually getting crits at an average of 207.8 percent, and any significant amount of resilience would have reduced this percentage, I assume.

Observation: In my test at 5 percent hit from gear, along with 3 percent from FA, I was getting average hits of 515, and average crits of 1036, or about 201.165 percent. Yet another significant discrepancy. Since I did not screen shot my 1000 block test and observe this difference, I will have to add that into my observation log as well.

So I will clarify the information I am looking for, if anyone else wants to provide test data as well.

1: Spec is limited to points in FA, or points in Lethal shots, and this is in combination with gear to reach the Hit Cap.

2: Screen shot your recount for each test, showing both the auto shot break down, and the detail panel to show the amount of blocked damage. When selecting the details panel for blocked damage, make sure to click on your name first in order to reset the details panel to the current spot. If you had looked at it at some point during the test, then it may freeze on that point and give an inaccurate reading.

If posting Screen Shots is not an option, then record the following values.

- Crit rating (percentage, specifying percentage from Lethal shots as a secondary number)
- Hit rating (numerical / percentage from gear, percentage from Focused Aim)
- Number of shots fired, number of crits, and the numerical averages for both of these (include crit percentage of course)
- Amount of blocked damage, which can be divided by 76 in order to determine the number of shots with blocked damage
- Specify if you are attacking from the front of the dummy, or the back.

Thank you everyone for the information gathering you are doing here.

I was using wicked arrows, and I found dividing by 76 always gave an integer. If I have more logs from more people I can confirm this, but it seems to be a constant amount. Since block value for defense is set as an amount of damage, as opposed to a percentage of damage, then this is consistent with block value mechanics.

I test in Darnassus as well, for that convenience and less drive by buffs.





I would actually prefer a test on the level 80 dummy with it capped from gear, as for now, I am trying to eliminate FA as a factor. If we can establish a baseline crit compression, the we can observe FA's behavior after this has been established.

I am working out how to combine logs, but the variance in crit is actually good, since it helps observe the apparent scaling nature of this effect. The thing I would be most concerned about is trying to keep hit cap rates as close as possible, since we are not certain yet if any points over the hit cap have any effect. Combining samples on a 0.01 difference is fine, since that is mathematically 1 extra crit out of 10,000, and this would not have a substantial effect. I will probably try to organize the data on crit range blocks, in order to see if the change in crit is proportional to the amount of crit compression.

Any help is useful, as I only have a limited time in the day. I am actually an artist who works on home renovations to get by, and I just happen to be good at math as well. I did focus on sculpture and that does use a lot of geometry. I actually placed out of Math in college, and was offered a partial scholarship if I switched from Art to Math, but my heart was set. If you have experience in mapping out this sort of thing, by all means, go ahead!

We know that blocks are never crits, at least for white attacks. This means either, You can't block crits or blocks negate criticals. Since the mob's block % isn't off can't we assume it's the latter? Could you take the % of crits expected to be blocked and work that into the data you already have? Let's say 25% crit and 5% block would mean 1.25% of your crits are being blocked. If you add 1.25% chance to your actual crit on your test, does that put you into your expected crit range?

I'll have some more data for you in a few hours. I'd like to get a 10k shot test but depending how long it takes I might have to stop at 5k and raid.

Oh yeah, all my blocks have been 76 damage reduction.

Hit cap vs another player of the same level is 5% -- I assume it's the same for a mob/dummy of the same level?

Yup it's 5 percent. There has been debate on whether hit from gear can crit, or if it simply replaces miss to count as hits, which would cause the same amount of crit depression as 5 percent blocked shots, using formula 2 that I outlined. Of course this would be evident on a 30 percent crit test on a level 80 dummy, so I don't think this is what is occurring.

That is already what I am doing in my previous posts. If you read back I am already applying 5 percent blocked damage negating crits to the information provided in the previous posts.

Example:

I am calculating based on an assumed 5 percent block rate along the same lines you described. With the fact that we are looking at RNR on ~25 percent of 10,000 shots, we are only mathematically informative returns on 2500 crits. So in order to reduce RNR, I think we need a test sample of at least 10,000 crits at the same crit rate, along with blocked damage shot rates, in order to start removing RNR swing on this small percentage we are testing.

This is why 1000 shot blocks are nice, it will take a while to get ~40,000 shots at the same approximate crit rating and hit rating.

Thanks for the info ahead of time, and help is appreciated, as it will certainly help to have a larger sample pool to extrapolate information. See if you can break it up into 1000 shot blocks, as I am trying to find the RNR threshold we need to shot for in order to reduce it's influence on our returns.

In my 1000 shot catalog post, you can see I am already getting fluctuations of 19.4 - 22.9, or 3.5 percent per 1000 shots. The current median is 214.44, which falls right into a +/- 1.75 percent RNR swing, but my sample is not big enough to confirm that confirm that. Even at 10,000 shot sample sizes, this would put RNR swing at +/- 0.175 percent, which at the margin of fluctuation we are testing, is still significant.

If you compare the 10k RNR swing to the post I quoted, you can see that the fluctuation i had falls within this threshold. Unfortunately, Rosamonde's test breaks this current model, since in 10k shots, she had a fluctuation of 0.49 percent. This may be attributed to her only having 4.25 percent blocked shots, as opposed to my 4.96 percent. Using her information solely, 4.25 percent of 20.17 Crit is 0.857 percent, and her return was 0.59 percent (5.39 - 4.80). This is a +0.267 fluctuation, a bit outside the acceptable range at this time.

The main anomaly I noticed is that she had almost 208 percent crit average over her hit average, when I had almost exactly 201 percent (with FA), as would have been expected. This may be a factor to the selective nature of this crit reduction.

Here is a running catalog of my latest hit-capped test vs the lvl 80 dummy in Darnassus with ~20% crit.

Each round of testing consists of 1000 autoshots. I have expressed an increase over the paperdoll crit as a "negative loss." (Incidentally, the amount of damage blocked by the lvl 80 dummy is 67.)

LVL 80 Dummy
0/0/0 spec
164 hit from gear (5.00%)
20.15% paperdoll crit
using +3% crit bonus meta
attacking from the front

01: 18.9 crit return --- 1.25 crit loss --- 1.25 crit loss average --- 38 shots blocked (3.8 percent) --- 206.7 crit bonus
02: 20.5 crit return -- -0.35 crit loss --- 0.45 crit loss average --- 54 shots blocked (5.4 percent) --- 209.7 crit bonus
03: 21.3 crit return -- -1.15 crit loss -- -0.08 crit loss average --- 46 shots blocked (4.6 percent) --- 210.2 crit bonus
04: 20.7 crit return -- -0.55 crit loss -- -0.20 crit loss average --- 53 shots blocked (5.3 percent) --- 206.9 crit bonus
05: 20.9 crit return -- -0.75 crit loss -- -0.31 crit loss average --- 47 shots blocked (4.7 percent) --- 208.8 crit bonus
06: 17.7 crit return --- 2.45 crit loss --- 0.29 crit loss average --- 46 shots blocked (4.6 percent) --- 207.8 crit bonus
07: 18.4 crit return --- 1.75 crit loss --- 0.38 crit loss average --- 56 shots blocked (5.6 percent) --- 209.9 crit bonus
08: 20.2 crit return -- -0.05 crit loss --- 0.32 crit loss average --- 45 shots blocked (4.5 percent) --- 206.0 crit bonus
09: 17.5 crit return --- 2.65 crit loss --- 0.58 crit loss average --- 63 shots blocked (6.3 percent) --- 207.1 crit bonus
10: 19.4 crit return --- 0.75 crit loss --- 0.60 crit loss average --- 51 shots blocked (5.1 percent) --- 207.9 crit bonus
11: 20.3 crit return -- -0.15 crit loss --- 0.53 crit loss average --- 38 shots blocked (3.8 percent) --- 209.0 crit bonus
12: 19.8 crit return --- 0.35 crit loss --- 0.52 crit loss average --- 50 shots blocked (5.0 percent) --- 209.0 crit bonus

Summary of full data
12,000 Autoshots
2356 crits (19.63%)
0.52% crit loss
587 blocked shots (4.89%)
208.25 average crit bonus

Mean = 0.525
Standard Deviation = 1.26

---------- +2 std dev: 3.045
2.65
2.45
---------- +1 std dev: 1.785
1.75
1.25
0.75
------------- Mean: 0.525
0.35
0.05
-0.15
-0.35
-0.55
-0.75
--------- -1 std dev: -0.735
-1.15
-------- -2 std dev: -1.995

==================================

LVL 80 Dummy
0/0/0 spec
164 hit from gear (5.00%)
20.15% paperdoll crit
using +3% crit bonus meta
attacking from the back

01: 20.4 crit return -- -0.25 crit loss -- -0.25 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0 percent) --- 207.1 crit bonus
02: 19.8 crit return --- 0.35 crit loss --- 0.05 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0 percent) --- 207.9 crit bonus
03: 22.5 crit return -- -2.35 crit loss -- -0.75 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0 percent) --- 204.9 crit bonus
04: 21.1 crit return -- -0.95 crit loss -- -0.80 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0 percent) --- 205.5 crit bonus
05: 19.7 crit return --- 0.45 crit loss -- -0.55 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0 percent) --- 206.5 crit bonus
06: 18.6 crit return --- 1.55 crit loss -- -0.20 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0 percent) --- 206.4 crit bonus
07: 19.7 crit return --- 0.45 crit loss -- -0.11 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0 percent) --- 206.4 crit bonus
08: 18.1 crit return --- 2.05 crit loss --- 0.16 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0 percent) --- 205.1 crit bonus
09: 19.6 crit return --- 0.55 crit loss --- 0.21 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0 percent) --- 206.9 crit bonus
10: 21.6 crit return -- -1.45 crit loss --- 0.04 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0 percent) --- 204.1 crit bonus
11: 20.3 crit return -- -0.15 crit loss --- 0.02 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0 percent) --- 205.8 crit bonus
12: 17.9 crit return --- 2.25 crit loss --- 0.20 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0 percent) --- 206.2 crit bonus

Summary of full data
12,000 Autoshots
2393 crits (19.94%)
0.21% crit loss
0 blocked shots (0%)
206.06 average crit bonus

Mean = 0.208
Standard Deviation = 1.37

--------- +2 std dev: 2.948
2.25
2.05
--------- +1 std dev: 1.578
1.55
0.55
0.45
0.45
0.35
====== Mean: 0.208
-0.15
-0.25
-0.95
-1.45
--------- -1 std dev: -1.162
-2.35
--------- -2.532

This may be a solution, but I am not sure if blocked damage, and actual blocks operate under the same mechanics...

I ran a preliminary test attacking the level 83 dummy from the back, though I did it raid specced as a 50 / 21 BM, so it is not a very controlled test. The only talent effecting crit was lethal shots.

I encountered no blocks damage in 1000 shots. At a crit rating of 33.52, 263 hit from gear, and I crit 28.3 percent. That is a 5.22 crit depression, and 0.52 excluding level difference. The nature of this test is such that not much can be inferred at the moment, and it was mainly to make sure there were no blocked shots from behind. I will have to begin a separate block series from behind the dummy, with all the parameters the same as my original block log series (which I still have to expand), in order to see if my crit reduction average is decreased. Also, my crit bonus was 206.5 percent while hit capped from gear. The only time I have gotten a lower average was with FA.

I recalled I did the Patchwerk fight from the front, and I found that 4.7 percent of my Auto shots had mitigated damage through blocks. I had 6.9 percent for my Steady shots as well. This is not isolated to Auto shots only then.

Following this link will take you to that incident. Wow Web Stats

Click on the area where it says mitigated %, 0.2 percent. This will expand the shot information and you can see blocked percentages for each shot. Also, using this information, I can see that I had 7 shots with blocked damage for a total of 532, which is exactly 76 blocked damage per shot. We can only infer this part of our test from this, as the crit returns, and crit averages have too many variables operating to be anywhere near accurate.




This will be the location of a set of 1000 shot blocks from behind the dummy, in order to establish crit returns with no blocked damage shots. It will be done with 27.86 crit, 263 hit from gear, as my previous test series was. The only variable changed is positioning in relation to the dummy. Eventually we will get back to testing Focused Aim as well, but for now we have to isolate all the variables.



01: 23.6 crit return --- 4.26 crit loss --- 4.26 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0.0 percent) --- 207.0 crit bonus
02: 23.8 crit return --- 4.06 crit loss --- 4.16 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0.0 percent) --- 206.7 crit bonus
03: 22.5 crit return --- 5.36 crit loss --- 4.56 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0.0 percent) --- 207.6 crit bonus
04: 18.8 crit return --- 9.06 crit loss --- 5.69 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0.0 percent) --- 205.1 crit bonus
05: 21.5 crit return --- 6.36 crit loss --- 5.82 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0.0 percent) --- 205.8 crit bonus

06: 22.5 crit return --- 5.36 crit loss --- 5.74 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0.0 percent) --- 207.6 crit bonus
07: 23.0 crit return --- 4.86 crit loss --- 5.62 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0.0 percent) --- 209.9 crit bonus
08: 24.5 crit return --- 3.36 crit loss --- 5.34 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0.0 percent) --- 204.8 crit bonus
09: 22.9 crit return --- 4.96 crit loss --- 5.29 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0.0 percent) --- 206.5 crit bonus
10: 23.9 crit return --- 3.96 crit loss --- 5.16 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0.0 percent) --- 203.2 crit bonus

11: 24.2 crit return --- 3.66 crit loss --- 5.02 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0.0 percent) --- 204.7 crit bonus
12: 23.1 crit return --- 4.56 crit loss --- 4.99 crit loss average --- 0 shots blocked (0.0 percent) --- 206.3 crit bonus






In sample 2, for the first 500 shots, the crit return was at almost 27 percent.
In sample 4, for the first 300 shots or so I only had about 9 percent crit return.

Note: excluding sample 4, since it is obviously abnormally low, creates a cumulative average of 5.04. A string like this alone can taint a 10k sample by 0.4 percent, quite significant.



I have moved my information from my previous log post here, in order to make parsing the information easier. This test was preformed from in front of the dummy, as should be evident from the occurrence of blocked shots.

The test is at 27.86 crit, 263 hit from gear.


01: 20.1 crit return --- 7.76 crit loss --- 7.76 crit loss average
02: 22.0 crit return --- 5.86 crit loss --- 6.81 crit loss average
03: 20.8 crit return --- 7.06 crit loss --- 6.89 crit loss average
04: 21.8 crit return --- 6.06 crit loss --- 6.69 crit loss average
05: 20.6 crit return --- 7.26 crit loss --- 6.80 crit loss average --- 62 shots blocked (6.2 percent)

06: 22.7 crit return --- 5.16 crit loss --- 6.53 crit loss average --- 48 shots blocked (4.8 percent)
07: 22.9 crit return --- 4.96 crit loss --- 6.30 crit loss average --- 52 shots blocked (5.2 percent)
08: 22.7 crit return --- 5.16 crit loss --- 6.16 crit loss average --- 55 shots blocked (5.5 percent)
09: 19.4 crit return --- 8.46 crit loss --- 6.42 crit loss average --- 50 shots blocked (5.0 percent)
10: 21.8 crit return --- 6.06 crit loss --- 6.38 crit loss average --- 44 shots blocked (4.4 percent) --- 208.2 crit bonus

11: 23.3 crit return --- 4.56 crit loss --- 6.21 crit loss average --- 49 shots blocked (4.9 percent) --- 208.3 crit bonus
12: 20.6 crit return --- 7.26 crit loss --- 6.30 crit loss average --- 51 shots blocked (5.1 percent) --- 209.1 crit bonus

Incidentally, Crit caps out at 90.00 percent, since I had 42.43 crit in Naxx Raid buffed, and I got the Loathweb spore buff, and my paper doll only went to 90.00 percent.

Dont think crit caps out at 90%, at Loatheb i checked mine was at 94%. My WWS shows similar 95% Chimera, 94% Chimera Serpent, 92% Steady Shot.

I would love to help by providing data.

I have a few questions on that;

1) What blocks of shots are needed right now? Blocks of 1.000 or blocks 0f 10.000?
2) What ranged weapon would be best to use? A low level weapon with a minimum of damage variation? I high level weapon with minimum of damage variation? Does the ammo type matter for this test (i.e. can I go buy the cheapest ammo, or should I use something a bit more on par?)
3) Spec is either 0/0/0 hitcapped at 8% total or 0/3/0 hitcapped at 8% total, or 0/3/0 Hitcapped from gear with an 11% total - is this correct?
4) Target is the lvl 80 target dummy with no debuffs correct? (or is it the lvl 83 one?)

Are there any other particulars I should be aware of befor eI start shooting ammo at the dummies?

1) We are doing series of 1K blocks -- you would want to do at least 10 of them. The idea is to collect data points, so the more the better, but whatever you have time for.

2) It doesnt' matter what weapon/ammo you use. I use the very cheapest ammo, but I have been using my regular raiding weapons because I need the stats on them to make my hit and crit what I want them to be. A low level weapon would cost you less to repair.

3) Spec is stripped out with or without Focused Aim, depending on what variable is being tested. Same with hit cap. I am testing on the lvl 80 dummy for comparison, so I have my hit at 5%, which is hitcapped for that dummy.

4) Depends which variable you are testing -- but, correct, no debuffs.

Other particulars) Use whatever level of crit you want -- just record what it is. Try to get as close as possible to the exact hit caps (263 for 8%; 164 for 5%). If you are going to do sets from the front and back, use the same gear for both. Blocked damage for each blocked shot on the 83 dummy is 76; on the 80 dummy is 67.

Currently, the idea is to gather datasets from the following types of tests, front and back of dummy for each:
hitcapped with gear (5%) vs 80 dummy, spec 0/0/0 -- Rosamonde currently testing
hitcapped with gear (8%) vs 83 dummy -- Thayer currently testing

hitcapped using FA (2% from gear, 3% from FA) vs 80 dummy, spec 0/3/0
hitcapped using FA (5% from gear, 3% from FA) vs 83 dummy, spec 0/3/0

hitcapped with gear + FA (5% from gear, 3% from FA) vs 80 dummy, spec 0/3/0
hitcapped with gear + FA (8% from gear, 3% from FA) vs 83 dummy, spec 0/3/0


We are focusing on gathering data without Focused Aim right now -- if you would like to generate some data, you could run one of the tests Thayer or I are doing, but with a different level of crit. Or, you could start working on one of the sets using FA. Thayer has a post explaining what data to include in your report.

Yes Night Elves are the exception. They have an inherent racial that makes then 2 percent harder to hit. So it takes 7 percent hit to never miss when your target is a Night Elf. This has no bearing on our test on the dummy.

Hmm, then I wonder why my paper doll only went to 90.00 exactly, considering I had a static 42.5 or so crit. Paper doll may not reflect true crit after 90.00? But in your case it showed it, so I am not sure. I wonder if the the 95 percent was the highest capable crit as well. If only we could test at a 100 percent crit right....

Just expanding on some of the information. Rosamonde already laid out the dirty pretty well.

1) 1000 blocks, yes, Auto shot only at this time. 10,000k shot min total, and more is always better. The Idea of the 1000 shot blocks is so we can observe patterns, as well as allowing you to step away from the test to raid and such, and then come back when need be.

2) I would actually prefer that you use a level 80 weapons, even though I know it incurs costs. The reason for this is because it gives much higher Damage numbers, and this in turn makes our statistics more accurate, since we have larger numbers to work with, and a greater fluctuation in the range of damage. If all our tests were for 100 - 200 hit damage, then our crit bonus averages, for example, would be a lot more clunky and approximate in the true scheme of things. The other reason is that we are seeing this pattern occur more dramatically at higher crit levels.

3) The options are already laid out in the previous reference. The only other factor is positioning according to the dummy. I find it interesting that Rosamonde is still getting blocked shots on a level 80 dummy from the front. A test on the level 80 dummy from behind should remove the blocked shots, and I would be interested in seeing if this effects crit returns.

4) just follow the link, and specify if you are attacking from the front or the back of the dummy. I edited the link in order to reflect this new parameter.



The focus is on testing without FA right now, as we are seeking to establish a control to test FA against, and we want to eliminate all other variable on crit returns in order to isolate if there is an issue with the talent or not.

Could this be a problem with the Heroic Dummies or with Night Elves as Thayer and Rosamonde are NE's.

I am an Orc Hunter and from Heroic Naxxramas last night, I ran at 36% crit raid buffed last night with zero points in Focused Aim and 268 hit rating.

According to my WWS log,

On Raz

Auto Shot - 39% Crit
Steady Shot - 43% Crit
Arcane Shot - 33% Crit
Chimera Shot - 33% Crit
Chimera Shot (Nature) - 39% Crit

I understand that it was only 151 shots, but I have not experienced any of the problem's with having a crit percentage that is not in range with or without Focused Aim.

For the entire night

Auto Shot - 39% Crit
Steady Shot - 34% Crit
Arcane Shot - 34% Crit
Chimera Shot - 34% Crit
Chimera Shot (Nature) - 42% Crit

That was 1699 shots so it is a better example, but a buff may have fallen off, but paperdoll was 36% every time I checked it and I didn't drop below 34 crit rating. I didn't get Arrowsong until after it dropped off of Patchwerk so my hit rating did increase after that point.

I remember hearing that there was some problems with the dummies that some damage won't work on them properly, and it may be that the testing is being done on a broken test utility. Also, WWS shows that no shots were blocked so if you are getting blocked shots in recount on a dummy I believe the dummies may be the cause of the entire reason why the numbers are off.

*Please note that this is my first post in EJ, be gentle.*

I will also run a test on heroic dummies in Org but I cannot get that done until this Friday as I am raiding the next 2 days.

The main thing is that in a raid setting, you have debuffs on your target that increase your crit chance that does not reflect on your paper doll. At times, you are attacking from behind the mob. A WWS report is not an accurate gauge for something this specific, since there are many variables to consider. As you are MM, then hunter's mark increases your crit returns, as do some other talents if you are specced appropriately. Some of these do not show up on your paper doll, as they only effect certain shots, and not your overall base crit percentage.

Also, if you look at the WWS report you posted, you will see in the far right hand side a column for mitigated %. if you expand this, it will show you the percentage of your shots that had blocked damage. This is not to be confused with actual Blocks. We are looking at percentage of blocked damage shots as canceling out a portion of our crit returns.

From your report:

Auto Shot ------2.7 percent with blocked damage
Steady Shot ---5.9 percent with blocked damage
Arcane Shot ---3.7 percent with blocked damage, and 40.7 percent with damage resisted
Chimera Shot -5.6 percent with blocked damage, and 33.3 percent with damage resisted
CS-Serpent ----5.6 percent with blocked damage, and 38.9 percent with damage resisted

This is handy though, as I was wondering if only Auto Shot gets block mitigation, or if all shots do. Your report is showing, at least in a rudimentary fashion, that this mechanic spreads out across all hunter shots except Serpent Sting and Wild Quiver. Looking at your full report, Volley also has block mitigation, as does Kill Shot.

Another thing I noticed is that on Patchwerk, your Chimera Shot has an abnormally high resist percentage (65.0 percent) and a crit return half as big as any of your other shots. Now I am also wondering if the resists are playing a role in decreasing crit return as well. Right now, this is too small a sample to extrapolate anything concrete, but it is definitely something to look at in the future.


As for being gentle; no grievous spelling errors or punctuation, and no references to abbreviations that show a lack of understanding of the English language. I got hit 3 times the first week I posted for something as small as punctuation, and "bad posting". I couldn't post for a week. You're doing well enough kid!

I am currently testing:
0/0/0, hitcapped (5%) from gear (actual rating 169), crit of 20,12% on a lvl 80 dummy in SMC from the front.
This test is without the 3% crit damage metagem (I haven't gotten hold of one yet, so I'm running with 42 ap/10 stunreduction time)

I will update this post as I get results from my subsequent sets:

I have had to discard my 3rd data set due to not SS'ing it, so the block data is missing.
Sets 4a and 4b consist of 500 shots each (I had to stop halfway through) Set 4- is the condensed data from 4a and 4b


1: 19,1 crit return --- 1,02 crit loss --- 1,02 crit loss average --- 57 shots blocked (5,7 percent) --- 202,2 crit bonus
2: 21,9 crit return --- -1,78 crit loss --- -0,38 crit loss average --- 52 shots blocked (5,2 percent) --- 201,8 crit bonus
4a: 19,6 crit return --- 0,52 crit loss --- -0,36 crit loss average --- 30 shots blocked (6,0 percent) --- 200,8 crit bonus
4b: 15,8 crit return --- 4,32 crit loss --- 0,22 crit loss average --- 20 shots blocked (4,0 percent) --- 200,2 crit bonus
4-: 17,7 crit return --- 2,42 crit loss --- 0,22 crit loss average --- 50 shots blocked (5,0 percent) --- 200,5 crit bonus



I will continue to update this post with the results from this setup.

Edit: Set data changed to be compliant with previous reports.
Edit2: Forgot the crit loss average (This is the crit loss if all sets are gathered together and taken as 1, right?)
Edit3: Added a note concerning 3% crit meta not being used in my test