i have been looking alot everywhere and all i see is some people using armor pen and some say stack agi.. i just want a straight up answer and hopefully get one quick plz... i'm thinking about re-gemming my 16 agi gems to 16 arm pen.. help plz ?

At the moment, I would advise against it. You would have to be a MM hunter, and really collect an ungodly amount of ArP for that to work. Arms warriors can only do that with a mace, and over 35% ArP from gear, before ArP>str...and 100% of what they do is physical, while, for us, we are looking at 35% to 50% (can not take pet into account) physical damage.

While using a 6/14/51 spec, elixir combo becomes better than using a flask, going up from 7685.66 to 7691.09

I have a fairly large amount of ArP and ArP is still about 30% less effective than Agi for me. I doubt ArP will ever be better than Agi with current available gear.

Updated the spreadsheet version 88c.
MM lost 61.56 dps propably due to the changes to CS whereas SV gained 12,85 dps. I also updated the BM template according to Thuors post (used Bright Scarlet Rubies instead of Delicate ones in the Staff though). I guess both the BM and SV templates got room for significant improvement though.

In the best non-hardmode SV Template, you have selected the [Greater Inscription of the Blade]

I think that should be [Greater Inscription of the Axe] with which you go from 7389 DPS to 7400.38 DPS

Since when was the site and the thread about not maximising your character? The statement of "not everyone is able to get hardmode items" lends itself to bad players and/or bad guilds. Nobody should be aiming for less than the best - that sort of crap belongs in the dung heap.

On the contrary, gearlist posts (including hard mode or not) help many people in making gearing/loot list decisions. Would you not agree that a reasonable goal for everyone would be to aim for a much more attainable non-hardmode BiS setup, THEN try and fill in the hard mode BiS items as they come? IMO, this is much more realistic and helpful for gearing than a set that includes all of the best gear from all of the hardest bosses/modes. As long as both lists (including hard mode and not) are in demand and helpful, which they appear to be, than there is no harm in including them here. On the other hand, comments from players who believe that everyone who isn't on their level are bad...how should I say this- that sort of crap belongs in the dung heap.

No. I didn't look for a gearlist from heroics, then a gearlist from 10 mans, in the same way I didn't look for a gearlist from kara, then gruul+mag back when ssc+tk was the latest raid instance, and thence BT/Hyjal and Sunwell. This has never been a forum for entry or mid-level discussion, but for one dedicated to maximising a character's (& raid's) capability. Not one for maximising-but-not-quite-maximising because it might be a bit hard.

The best possible dps thread in TBC wasn't loaded with posts showing which gear was best in SSC when everybody was up to M'uru.

I'm not making a statement on playing ability, if everyone (myself included) was perfect, we wouldn't have a reason to visit here. But people should not be posting here in the expectation that settling for second-best is acceptable in a "best possible" thread. It's a ridiculous post-forma argument to make.

If people are interested in what gear is an upgrade, there's a mountain of resources, one of which is the spreadsheet itself.

It can be quite hard to determine the BiS gear. If you look at all the gear available, in hard-mode also, then it keeps changing as people tweek it here and there. People who don't have access to hardmode, because their guilds are not doing them, also need some help to determine BiS gear for them.
If it was so easy to model a complete BiS set, then the initial set wouldn't have needed to be posted here either for everyone to see, because people could just look for themselves in the spreadsheet.
It's quite a big help for non-hardmode raiders to know what optimal gear set outside of hardmode raids they should aim for eventually.

The argument that "it hasn't been done in the past" is just crap tbh.. So you're saying we should never do anything new and just stick to the old ways? The difficulties in the game varies as well as the game and players themselves, if more and more people feel they aren't able to experience the hardest stuff available, then why shouldn't this thread expand itself to include them also? Afterall we all just want to become our best within our limits - and in that sense this thread is still sticking to it's topic - best POSSIBLE dps (for those that can't do hardmode also now).

I have no problems with you aiming for a non-hardmode set, but i would not agree it is "a reasonable goal for everyone to aim for" non-hardmode BiS items. Make a separate thread and title it "Best Possible Non-Hardmode Ulduar Gearlist", and please leave this thread as it is intended. All the posts debating hard mode vs non hard mode has dramatically increased the number of pages, and I have to filter through every time to find what is currently the best gear-list available. If you need help making a gearing/loot decision, the spreadsheet clearly shows what items are from Hard-Mode, and what are not. There are also individual threads based on spec, that you can appeal to if you are still not sure. Next thing you know people will want only 10 man lists or 25 man + 10 man hard mode lists.... all this is in the spreadsheet, if an item is not obtainable by your current guild progression the spreadsheet tells you the next best thing.

Please Elitist Jerks moderators, clear up this issue, delete the QQ posts and put this thread back to what it is intended to be.

Edit: On a complete side note I have played with 88c today, and tried something different: Loading All armor pen gems, Grim Toll + Mjolnir Runestone, and other high armor pen gear options. I am a survival hunter so I'm not sure if I'm implementing all the right MM choices, but I am getting Agility + 1, 1.569, and ArP Rating+1, 1.413 per item budgets. This means with current available gear we are getting extremely close to armor pen being a viable option over agility. Perhaps there is a way to tweak the rotation or some other feature to show ArP finally coming out greater?

Delete

Several tests are showing that we aren't reaching it with currently available gear. But if you wanted to do some testing, just create custom gear, and see where it balances out for you.

I'm not quite sure why we're having the "Include a Non-Hard Mode only" discussion again since the OP has already stated that he's willing to include the information as long as someone else maintains it, to which I've included the link/quote below.

Beachwanderer, downloading the spreadsheet in the OP will always be the fastest way to get the BIS build though it may be at most 3 days behind.

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Ulduar 10-Player Hard Mode Weapons Update

Recent blizz post that 10-man hard mode weapons will be bumped to 232. At a glance, the following items may become contenders for BiS:

Tortured Earth
Magnetized Projectile Emitter

I don't think the Emitter will beat the i239 crossbow from Thorim 25m hard mode. http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2131/bowq.jpg

True, but emitter is 3.0 spd, whereas the xbow is 2.8. I'm not 100% clear on the effect of weapon speed anymore, but it may have a more pronounced impact on MM. Once the new stats are added to the spreadsheet, we can verify to be certain.

Changed a few things- able to get 7433 DPS for Survival. Link is here:
RapidShare: Easy Filehosting

Edit: Non-hard modes.

Mh. I think http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...r_patch312.jpg would be very nice for my sweet dwarf. <3
Highest Damage ingame at the moment? (Skyforge has 2.8 - Emitter 3.0 speed)

Weapondamage is still rather important to MM due to Aimed and Chimera, however it isn't overshadowing. Besides, while the gun certainly has a higher high-end damage, it also had a much lower low-end damage.

The gun's average shot is 464.5 while the crossbow's average is 477.5. So while the crossbow is faster it's shots will still hit harder, plus you will obviously get more autos. Win/win. The only thin you lose relatively is manaregen per shot in Aspect of the Viper.

His more general question was about weapon speed though. In the spreadsheet, the RAP scaling of aimed, chimera, and multi is normalized to 2.8 but not the weapon damage. This gives slower weapons a slight edge in this respect. But faster weapons have a slight edge when it comes to proc-related things (hunting party, EW, IAotH, etc.) and yes, viper.

I'm not certain this belongs here, but in light of the last few posts I'm curious. Is there a point to weapons speed? Or should we just be looking at top end and overall dps? I'm really at a loss for which weapon is better as MM would seem to prefer the wep with higher top end.