Best Possible DPS in Shandaras WotLK Spreadsheet - Page 2

Mikari · 01/19/09, 2:39 AM

Originally Posted by Neruse

Marksman Layout

v82 spreadsheet: 5887.76 dps (Hunter: 4736.66, Pet: 1151.10).
Without Mana Spring: 5837.12 dps (Hunter: 4687.81, Pet: 1149.31)

Race: Dwarf (Gun Specialization)
Professions: Jewelcrafting + Leatherworking
Spec: 15/51/5
Pet Spec: Raptor
Glyphs: Serpent Sting, IAotH, Steady Shot
Buffs/debuffs: Exactly as OP, but with Mana Spring added.
Consumables: Elixir of Mighty Agility, Elixir of Mighty Thoughts, Blacked Dragonfin, Kibler's Bits
Shot Priority: Rapid Fire > Readiness > Serpent Sting > Chimera Shot > Kill Shot > Aimed Shot > Arcane Shot > Steady Shot
Pet Priority: Savage Rend > Claw

Gear:
Melee - [Journey's End] + [Scroll of Enchant 2H Weapon - Massacre]
Head - [Blue Aspect Helm] + [Arcanum of Ferocity] + [Relentless Earthsiege Diamond] + [Glinting Monarch Topaz]
Neck - [Favor of the Dragon Queen] + [Delicate Dragon's Eye]
Shoulders - [Valorous Cryptstalker Spaulders] + [Greater Inscription of the Axe] + [Delicate Scarlet Ruby]
Back - [Drape of the Deadly Foe] + [Scroll of Enchant Cloak - Superior Agility]
Chest - [Valorous Cryptstalker Tunic] + [Formula: Enchant Chest - Powerful Stats] + [Delicate Scarlet Ruby] + [Delicate Dragon's Eye]
Wrists - [Slime Stream Bands] + Fur Lining - Attack Power + [Delicate Dragon's Eye]
Hands - [Frosted Adroit Handguards] + [Scroll of Enchant Gloves - Crusher]
Waist - [Torn Web Wrapping] + [Eternal Belt Buckle] + [Delicate Scarlet Ruby]
Legs - [Leggings of Failed Escape] + [Icescale Leg Armor] + [Delicate Scarlet Ruby] + [Delicate Dragon's Eye]
Feet - [Boots of the Renewed Flight] + [Scroll of Enchant Boots - Superior Agility]
Rings - [Surge Needle Ring] + [Strong-Handed Ring]
Trinkets - [Fury of the Five Flights] + [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
Ranged - [Envoy of Mortality] + [Heartseeker Scope]
Other - [Dragonscale Ammo Pouch] + [Mammoth Cutters]

I noticed you have 4 jewelers gems in your set ups, you can only have 3 at a time equipped.

elandriel · 01/19/09, 4:32 AM

What I would love to see with each gear/specc post is the combined stats (Hit, Crit and Haste percentages. Stamina, Agility, Attack Power, ArP) that the gear/talent setup gives. Especially the haste rating one, considering that BIS gear doesn't always cap it. This, I believe, will also help us identify what makes the difference between each gear setup.

Also I see almost every post has Raptor as its pet of choice. So my question is: can it be modeled in the spreadsheet to have Savage Rend and Kill Command combined (they both have 1 min. cooldown). Since, according to patch notes, all pet abilities with cds longer than 30 secs are off the GCD after 3.0.8.

Balle · 01/19/09, 4:38 AM

how do you put Savage Rend > Claw? Do you put Savage Rend in your SS macro?

Rokh · 01/19/09, 5:49 AM

Originally Posted by Vaxum

Personally, I'll play the game in this thread, the way the majority decides - but I would prefer/recommend that we let people twiddle all the knobs & dials in the model and see what they come up with. We might even learn something.

The problem with this is that the sheet has FAR to many options these days; fight length, boss armor will greatly decide what spec/pet/gear is best. Adjusting these settings have to be limited to some extent; otherwise a Moth as BM and Readiness will win every 30 second fight we model.

But that's far from reality.

Whitemane · 01/19/09, 8:24 AM

I would suggest though that specific spreadsheet is uploaded for this exercise, with every buff and so on set - so that people would only need to tinker with gear and just leave everything else alone. Talents, you have the spec specific threads for that.

Midnight · 01/19/09, 9:15 AM

My reasoning behind allowing changes to some things and not allowing them to others is that I differentiate between things only you can influence like, race, equipment and talents and those you can´t really influence or that depend on others like fight duration, latency, target armor or group composition.

I specifically decided to exclude the draenei aura and the mana spring totem because unlike the other buffs both of them ain´t raid wide. That beeing said I do end up getting the aura a lot of times nonetheless, so I´m open minded about changing this - you can always model around having the aura and just use another elixir or food buff if you happen to not get one. I´m not so sure about the mana spring totem though.

Another thing I´m uncertain about is the uptime of Replenishment - what is a reasonable value here? What I didn´t consider when setting it to 50% is that a lot of classes don´t even have mana so they´re not eligible for the buff anyway. Considering this the uptime is propably closer to 75% or 100%.

Unfortunatly I´m a bit in a hurry right now so I can´t check the templates already posted and put the best three of them on the front page. I´ll try to get it done later this evening though.

Thelastdeadmouse · 01/19/09, 3:00 PM

A quick and dirty BM one just to get a starting point up on the board, plenty of room for improvement I'm sure.

V82 Orc 54/12/5 - 5528.63 DPS (Hunter: 3220.13, Pet: 2308.50)

Weapon: Journey's End - Massacre
Helm: Blue Aspect Helm - Arcanum of Ferocity - Relentless Earthseige Diamond - Wicked Monarch Topaz
Neck: Favor of the Dragon Queen - Bright Scarlet Ruby
Shoulders: Valorous Cryptstalker Spaulders - Greater Inscription of the Axe - Bright Scarlet Ruby
Back: Drape of the Deadly Foe - Major Agility
Chest: Valorous Crypstalker Tunic - Powerful Stats - Bright Scarlet Ruby - Bright Scarlet Ruby
Wrist: Slime Stream Bands - Fur Lining-Attack Power - Bright Scarlet Ruby
Hands: Valorous Cryptstalker Handguards - Crusher - Bright Scarlet Ruby
Waist: Torn Web Wrapping - Eternal Belt Buckle - Bright Scarlet Ruby
Legs: Valorous Crypstalker Legguards - Icescale Leg Armor - Bright Scarlet Ruby - Infused Twilight Opal
Feet: Boots of the Renewed Flight - Superior Agility
Ring: Ring of Invincibility
Ring: Surge Needle Ring
Trinket: Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Trinket: Grim Troll
Ranged: Envoy of Mortality - Heartseeker Scope
Netherscale Ammo Pouch
Mammoth Cutters

Shot Rotation: Rapid Fire - Bestial Wrath - Kill Shot - Serpent Sting - Arcane Shot - Steady Shot
Pet: Raptor
Professions: Leatherworking - Skinning
Flask: Endless Rage
Food: Snapper Extreme

Since my goal was to create a starting point for BM, I left out undead only enchants, mana totems, and Draenei buff so this build will still be valid however those issue are decided.

Mordecai · 01/19/09, 4:25 PM

V82 Orc 54/12/5 - Raptor 5655.02 DPS (Hunter 3319.16, Pet 2335.86)

Weapon: [Journey's End] + [Item not found!]
Helm: [Blue Aspect Helm] + [Arcanum of Ferocity] + [Relentless Earthsiege Diamond] + [Wicked Monarch Topaz]
Neck: [Favor of the Dragon Queen] + [Bright Dragon's Eye]
Shoulders: [Valorous Cryptstalker Spaulders] + [Greater Inscription of the Axe] + [Bright Scarlet Ruby]
Back: [Drape of the Deadly Foe] + [Scroll of Enchant Cloak - Major Agility]
Chest: [Chestguard of Flagrant Prowess] + [Scroll of Enchant Chest - Powerful Stats] + [Bright Scarlet Ruby] + [Bright Dragon's Eye]
Bracers: [Slime Stream Bands] + [Scroll of Enchant Bracers - Greater Assault] + [Bright Scarlet Ruby]
Gloves: [Valorous Cryptstalker Handguards] + [Scroll of Enchant Gloves - Crusher] + [Rigid Autumn's Glow]
Belt: [Torn Web Wrapping] + [Bright Scarlet Ruby]
Legs: [Leggings of Failed Escape] + [Icescale Leg Armor] + [Bright Scarlet Ruby] + [Bright Dragon's Eye]
Boots: [Boots of the Renewed Flight] + [Scroll of Enchant Boots - Icewalker]
Ring 1: [Surge Needle Ring] + Enchant Ring - Assault
Ring 2: [Strong-Handed Ring] + Enchant Ring - Assault
Trinket 1: [Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
Trinket 2: [Fury of the Five Flights]
Ranged: [Envoy of Mortality] + [Heartseeker Scope]
[Netherscale Ammo Pouch] + [Mammoth Cutters]

Rotation: Blood Fury + Bestial Wrath + Rapid Fire + Kill Shot + Serpent Sting + Arcane Shot + Multi-Shot + Steady Shot
Professions: Enchanting + Jewelcrafting
Flask: [Flask of Endless Rage]
Food: [Snapper Extreme]

edit: This is probably a bug in the sheet, but swapping the Arcanum in the Helm with the Ebon Hold one and replacing the Wicked Topaz with a Rigid Autumn's Glow actually lowers the dps, despite a net of 12 crit over the previous setup.

noglen · 01/19/09, 4:27 PM

Why not just have a best horde and best alliance value? Whilst the other racials will make the difference in getting that last few dps out, the draenei racial for alliance will have a massive impact on the gear selection, so the best selection will be vastly different for horde and alliance.

If we have both, we end up with something that will be useful for everyone.

Mirranda · 01/19/09, 9:31 PM

Originally Posted by Rokh

Mana Spring Totem and Mana Tide Totem are party-wide only still unfortunately.

A correction from this (as a shaman reroll, I tested this). Mana Spring Totem is indeed raid wide, only the strongest of the totems will apply though (so a resto shamans > others) however there is no visible buff (even for the shaman) gained by being in range of the totem.

Mana Tide Totem still remains party specific.

Neruse · 01/19/09, 9:39 PM

Originally Posted by bashwolf

Survival Layout

v82 spreadsheet: 6809.29 dps (Hunter: 5632.03, Pet: 1177.26).

I'm getting 6692.04 dps with mana spring on that. Did you change fight length or some other setting?

Also, orc racials are huge. I mean HUGE!

That same setup is 6652.03 dps as a dwarf, and 6627.37 dps as a nelf.

Nerf orcs. And I think my layout is still better, as I get 6725.14 dps as orc with my gear on page 1.

I believe the actual gear won't change between BiS as orc or dwarf or nelf or etc. The only race that will have a few changes in gear are draenai.

Edit: As for my excessive gem usage earlier, the dps numbers were correct. I had just forgotten to change that extra dragon's eye earlier.

Bere · 01/19/09, 9:45 PM

delete this post =/

Esoth · 01/19/09, 9:47 PM

Originally Posted by Vaxum

- Spreadsheet doesn't model blacksmithing. If it did, the DPS numbers would go up ~10dps (-64ap, +32agi).

Should be able to use the hand adjustment row for that, no?

I understand the reason for only adjusting variables that the hunter can control and leaving the rest as defaults, but isn't the 6 minute fight length just an arbitrary number? When it comes to mana related talents and buffs (flasks tend to beat out agility/thought elixirs on the spreadsheet for me when the fight is less than about 4 minutes) I don't believe there's a single stand-and-shoot fight in the game that is taking anywhere near that long. For fights that last longer, you tend to have periods where you aren't using mana but cooldowns will be a factor - but even then, 6 minutes seems more like it is going to be at the end of the spectrum instead of the middle. At least, in T7.

Neruse · 01/19/09, 9:54 PM

Obviously 90% of fights are shorter, but that's because most raids are geared to the teeth. Sarth 3D 25 is between 5:30 (for raids that stack certain geared classes) to 9-10min for first kills/less gear/less stacking. Thaddius is often around 4:30-5 min, and KT around 5-7 min.

Also, Blizzard will be tuning the T8 instances to be significantly harder, which also implies longer fights.

bashwolf · 01/19/09, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by Neruse

I'm getting 6692.04 dps with mana spring on that. Did you change fight length or some other setting?

Replenishment 100%

Vaxum · 01/19/09, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Neruse

I believe the actual gear won't change between BiS as orc or dwarf or nelf or etc. The only race that will have a few changes in gear are draenai.

Draenei is about the availability of the hit aura, not the race of the hunter - Dwarf Hunter with Draenei party aura, for example. Any Alliance race can reasonably assume that a min-maxed raid will try to get them the hit aura if they have geared for the DPS stats.

Racials definitely have an impact: Dwarfs get crit on guns, Trolls get crit on bows. Best-in-slot for Dwarfs could easily be different to that for Trolls when (if?) Ulduar adds some good bows to offset all the guns we get now.

@Midnight: I still struggle to see why we would want a best-in-slot setup that ignores such a major & easily available buff. People keep going "it's far too complex to let people modify buffs" but c'mon, if people really aren't able to just add either:
1) Buffs: all buffs including Draenei b/c this assumes an Alliance race; or
2) Buffs: all buffs except Draenei b/c this assumes a Horde race
To their post then they really shouldn't be posting in the first place. It's a very simple bar to ask people to meet, and makes the results actually applicable to a large % of the playerbase.

@Esoth: Yeah, I would wager that all of the SV & MM setups posted so far would be improved by removing the LW bracer enchants & doing -64ap, +32agi on the hand adjust line.

Vaxum · 01/20/09, 12:08 AM

As input to the "what is the right replenishment %" discussion, here is some data from our last Naxx25 showing how long each of the fights were (in secs) and how many replenishment ticks I got.

Boss        Secs Ticks Uptime
Anub'rekahn   82    70    85%
Faerlina      81    70    86%
Maexxna       95    81    85%
Razuvious    163   129    79%
Gothik        61    38    62%
4HM          179   151    84%
Noth          87    75    86%
Heigan        94    89    95%
Loatheb      199   179    90%
Patchwerk    144   126    88%
Grobbulus    146   121    83%
Gluth         99    82    83%
Thaddius     201   178    89%
Sapphiron    208   149    72%
KT           224   121    54%

Nakari · 01/20/09, 12:12 AM

I'd be pretty suprised if the top races were anything other than dwarf for alliance and orc for horde either way, at least as long as the best ranged weapon in game is Envoy of Mortality. Though Trolls could be closer than the spreadsheet suggest on certain fights, as it models Berserking as a 10% haste buff (it can go as high as 30% if used at the right time, for example right after Malygos' vortex phase or Gluth's decimate)... but still not as good as Orcs with their extra AP trinket and free T7 bonus I guess.

@Vaxum: It would be nice to know how many "replenishment classes" were in the raid... anyway, the assumed 50% uptime seems much too low, discounting KT and Gothik (I guess phase 1 of both encounters drags the uptime down quite a bit).

Kithicor · 01/20/09, 12:16 AM

So should we change the uptime to 75%? The average is 80% and it's either 75 or 100.

Nakari · 01/20/09, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by Kithicor

So should we change the uptime to 75%? The average is 80% and it's either 75 or 100.

I think the KT and Gothik should be exluded if you want to average here, as phase 1 of both encounters consists in a lot of standing around doing nothing.... 80-85% seems like a better guess to me, but that depends heavily on the number of replenishment providers.

Edit: Browsing trough the WWS, there were only 2 Shadowpriests providing replenishment... add a Ret Pala or SV Hunter and I guess you could assume nearly 100% uptime in a boss fight.

Esoth · 01/20/09, 1:04 AM

Originally Posted by Nakari

@Vaxum: It would be nice to know how many "replenishment classes" were in the raid... anyway, the assumed 50% uptime seems much too low, discounting KT and Gothik (I guess phase 1 of both encounters drags the uptime down quite a bit).

Looking at his WWS report, they had two replenishers (both shadow priests) and 19 mana using classes.

Another point on fight length: I realize some fights are longer, particularly the more complicated ones. Those fights also tend to have periods where you are not using mana (you're moving, etc) so the fight length isn't quite as punishing on mana as the spreadsheet would assume. Cooldown alignment (best term I could come up with) is still going to be a factor whether you are using mana or not, so I realize it becomes complicated rather quickly.

I don't buy the T8 argument to be honest - the fights may be harder and longer, I certainly agree - but all we have to work with right now are T7 numbers. We're using T7 gear and pre-3.1 mechanics. It would be inappropriate to use that data in conjunction with T8 boss fight length.

Midnight · 01/20/09, 6:40 AM

Originally Posted by Vaxum

@Midnight: I still struggle to see why we would want a best-in-slot setup that ignores such a major & easily available buff. People keep going "it's far too complex to let people modify buffs" but c'mon, if people really aren't able to just add either:
1) Buffs: all buffs including Draenei b/c this assumes an Alliance race; or
2) Buffs: all buffs except Draenei b/c this assumes a Horde race
To their post then they really shouldn't be posting in the first place. It's a very simple bar to ask people to meet, and makes the results actually applicable to a large % of the playerbase.

Ok, I changed the frame conditions to include the draenei aura now and since we´re assuming a draenei in the group it doesn´t really make sense to exclude the mana spring totem because in most cases the draenei will be an enhancement shaman (at least in alliance groups). I also raised replenishment uptime to 100% because of the statistics brought up here and in PMs.

So in essence it´s now just as Vaxum proposed - turning on every possible buff and debuff on at its highest rank/uptime with the exception of the draenei aura if you picked a horde race.

I also removed the custom target type because I only took it to factor in improved tracking which doesn´t seem to be necessary anyway.

Katrael · 01/20/09, 8:27 AM

Vitaro · 01/20/09, 8:55 AM

Katrael you list 'Blacksmithing + Jewelcrafting' as professions but it seems you forgot to list the extra gem slots you get from Blacksmithing's Socket Gloves and Socket Bracer. Unless I am missing something of course.

Midnight · 01/20/09, 10:23 AM

Alright, I started by adding some MM and SV numbers to the original post and I´ll add the BM numbers later on. I´ll propably just upload the whole spreadsheet when I´m done too. I had to improvise somewhat bacause people were still posting with diffrent buff settings concerning heroic presence, mana tide totem and replenishment uptime.
From now on please only post if you´ve found
a) a template that does more total dps than the one posted and
b) uses exactly the buffs outlined in the initial post.
Also please don´t omit any important data like the spec or pet spec (even though that one is pretty obvious). Alternatively you can just upload your whole spreadsheet with the template.