I'd think something like Ignis or Razorgore would be better tests, since your uptime on runes can be pretty variable on IC and make the results hard to compare.
I haven't regemmed since the spreadsheet still claims I'd lose a fair bit of DPS if I did, although with a few more good pieces of ArP it does say each point of arp would be worth more than each point of agi (right now they're 1.2/1.4 for me).
Hunter DPS (Night Elf) 7464.72
Pet Dps( Wolf )1010.66
Total DPS" 8475.37
Ranged Critical Hit Chance vs. Level 83 54.03%
Ranged Hit Chance vs. Level 83 100.16%
Professions - BS+JC
Major Glyphs
Glyph of Serpent Sting
Glyph of the Hawk
Glyph of Steady Shot
I left Arcane Shot completely out of my rotation, with ArP the value of Steady Shot and Improved Steady Shot increases drasticaly - its damage increases due to the lowered boss armor, the Piercing Shots dot increases and the more steady shots casted in between 2 Chimera Shots also increase the chance of Improved Steady Shot procs.
I can't replicate this result. I plugged in exactly as is, but I only get 8220dps. What latency did you use? What version of the spreadsheet?
I'm curious guys.. I recently switched from AGI gems to ARP, on the spread sheet it was about a 10dps boost. Now, I am sitting at 375 passive ARP, I do not have an arp trinket at the moment. My question is, do I still skip arcane shot with this much arp? Also, I use steady shot/ serpent/chimera glyph.. are these right?
This is not exactly true since Arp scales exponentially not linear so although some of the proc is wasted the actual benefit might still be higher then swapping to agility straight after 567 Arp is reached.
Also the fact that the trinket proc is only up for 20% of the fight also needs to be taken into account so during the 20% of the fight some Arp is wasted but during the other 80% you will be under cap innless you have reached 100% passive Arp.
As far as I know modelling this in the spreadsheet is still not possible so an estimate can only be given of Arp trinkets actual benefit.
Modeling the benefit of Mjolnir using the spreadsheet as has been stated above, I've done a few incremental tests comparing equivalent amounts of ArP and Agility past the point where the mjolnir proc can be maximized. Results seem to indicate exactly as I stated, that Agility resumes being the better stat after 567 ArP exactly BECAUSE ArP scales exponentially. Intuitively this makes sense because 1 point of ArP is worth much more doing from 1231 to 1232 than from 566 to 567. The spreadsheet would seem to indicate that the waste and therefore LOSS of those high end ArP points even only 20% of the time from going beyond 567 ArP outweighs the benefit of mid range ArP vs Agility, i.e. gear for Agility after 567 ArP as usual.
Edit: I'll actually back this up with numbers when it isn't midnight >.<
Incoming silly, maybe even a stupid question @ Alduin:
Why go for 3/3 in Focused Aim and leaving out True Shot Aura?
With some decent Ulduar gear we'll reach hitcap without a problem. In a way I can see how one can benefit from the reduced pushback on SS but for raiding viability and personal dps I would think True Shot is a must-have..
PS: This is my first post, been reading a lot and please excuse my ignorance if I missed anything.
TSA isn't in the highest dps build because enhancement shaman provide the same 10% attack power buff, and their version of the talent also grants them expertise.
Incoming silly, maybe even a stupid question @ Alduin:
Why go for 3/3 in Focused Aim and leaving out True Shot Aura?
With some decent Ulduar gear we'll reach hitcap without a problem. In a way I can see how one can benefit from the reduced pushback on SS but for raiding viability and personal dps I would think True Shot is a must-have..
PS: This is my first post, been reading a lot and please excuse my ignorance if I missed anything.
While Gallon is correct in a sense, the reason for most talent builds in this thread you will see missing talents like True Shot Aura and Improved Hunters Mark is because the thread is based on finding out the highest obtainable damage per second for a single person.
As such, most of the time buffs like TSA and Imp. Hunters Mark will be considered to be obtained from another hunter or class rather than the hunter 'in' the spreadsheet.
This is why a fair amount of people will caution to look at and use the spreadsheet findings with a grain of salt. You may need to spec TSA, and it may be a higher DPS build for you in your raid if you have no one else giving out a 10% damage buff (DK's, Shamans and Hunters).
However, if you can spec however you like and are going to obtain all useful buffs on a 25 man raid encounter, without having to give out any yourself, then the build in the spreadsheet is more than likely the best build for you. Assuming you have all the gear in the spreadsheet as well. Hopefully leading to the best possible DPS for you in a 25 man raid setting.
Update to v89f
I also included a new MM template utilizing ArPen.
I also have to say it again: If you´ve got a template with higher dps that changes more than 2-3 items in an existing template please either include the gearstring or upload the whole sheet. DON´T deviate from the frame conditions given in the OP (like using diffrent latency or rotation test results instead of frequencies) or use custom items NYI in the spreadsheet.
This beeing said considering the rotation test results should have an option to be deterministic now we can discuss using this method in future if it´s deemed closer to "real-world" results.
FaceShooter - a hunter shot recommendation AddOn
The optimism of action is better than the pessimism of thought.
- Greenpeace UK
I'd think something like Ignis or Razorgore would be better tests, since your uptime on runes can be pretty variable on IC and make the results hard to compare.
There is a really easy fix. Just start using World of Logs, not WWS. It is far better than before, it also provides much more info than WWS does.
When you check the graph of one IC fight, you can see a green line indicating when one of the bosses died. Just right-click the line and then click "Set page to selection". It should show you the damage done to Steelbreaker during the last phase only. Same applies for XT-002 heart.
Edit: Anyway, since I am not sure if the post is public or not, here's a link. Apologies if it doesn't work.
Modeling the benefit of Mjolnir using the spreadsheet as has been stated above, I've done a few incremental tests comparing equivalent amounts of ArP and Agility past the point where the mjolnir proc can be maximized. Results seem to indicate exactly as I stated, that Agility resumes being the better stat after 567 ArP exactly BECAUSE ArP scales exponentially. Intuitively this makes sense because 1 point of ArP is worth much more doing from 1231 to 1232 than from 566 to 567. The spreadsheet would seem to indicate that the waste and therefore LOSS of those high end ArP points even only 20% of the time from going beyond 567 ArP outweighs the benefit of mid range ArP vs Agility, i.e. gear for Agility after 567 ArP as usual.
Edit: I'll actually back this up with numbers when it isn't midnight >.<
What a perfectly said statement. However, is 800 ArP worth it? 1000? Or are we going to need the full 1239 before the runestone proc to truly get the best average dps increase. I can't wait to see your numbers, and the gear set where we hit the breaking point.
570ARP if you use Mjolnir (570+665=1235 capped)
623ARP if you use Grim Toll (623+612=1235 capped)
BiS Hardmode Gear:
Hunter DPS 7394,91
Pet Dps 1079,63
Total DPS 8474,55
Bufffood: Hearthy Rhino, Flask of Endless Rage
talents: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Gear
<Header><Version>V1</Version><Date>16.06.2009</Date><ProfileName>Mjolnir AgiGems</ProfileName></Header><Gear><Race>Orc</Race><MainHand><Name>Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned</Name><Enchant>Massacre (Two Hand)</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></MainHand><OffHand><Name>None</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></OffHand><Head><Name>Conqueror's Scourgestalker Headpiece</Name><Enchant>Arcanum of Torment</Enchant><Gem1>Relentless Earthsiege Diamond (21 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Stormjewel (20 Agility)</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></Head><Neck><Name>Pendulum of Infinity</Name><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Neck><Shoulder><Name>Mantle of Fiery Vengeance</Name><Enchant>Greater Inscription of the Axe</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Shoulder><Back><Name>Drape of the Faceless General</Name><Enchant>Major Agility</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Deadly Monarch Topaz (8 Agi, 8 Crit)</Gem2></Back><Chest><Name>Conqueror's Scourgestalker Tunic</Name><Enchant>Powerful Stats</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></Chest><Wrist><Name>Fluxing Energy Coils</Name><Enchant>Greater Assault</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem2></Wrist><Hands><Name>Gloves of the Steady Hand</Name><Enchant>Major Agility</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)</Gem2><Gem3>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem3></Hands><Waist><Name>Belt of the Betrayed</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem3></Waist><Legs><Name>Legguards of Cunning Deception</Name><Enchant>Icescale Leg Armor</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Dragon's Eye (27 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem2><Gem3>Delicate Dragon's Eye (27 Agi)</Gem3></Legs><Feet><Name>Boots of Living Scale</Name><Enchant>Superior Agility</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem2></Feet><Ring1><Name>Brann's Signet Ring</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1></Ring1><Ring2><Name>Brann's Sealing Ring</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1></Ring2><Trinket1><Name>Dark Matter</Name><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Trinket1><Trinket2><Name>Mjolnir Runestone</Name><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Trinket2><Ranged><Name>Skyforge Crossbow</Name><Enchant>Heartseeker Scope</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Ranged><Ammo>Mammoth Cutters</Ammo></Gear>
BiS Non Hardmode Gear:
Hunter DPS 6915,39
Pet Dps 1062,34
Total DPS 7977,72
Bufffood: Flask of Endless Rage, Hearthy Rhino
<Header><Version>V1</Version><Date>17.06.2009</Date><ProfileName>NonHardmode Loot</ProfileName></Header><Gear><Race>Orc</Race><MainHand><Name>Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned</Name><Enchant>Massacre (Two Hand)</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></MainHand><OffHand><Name>None</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></OffHand><Head><Name>Conqueror's Scourgestalker Headpiece</Name><Enchant>Arcanum of Torment</Enchant><Gem1>Relentless Earthsiege Diamond (21 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Stormjewel (20 Agility)</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></Head><Neck><Name>Broach of the Wailing Night</Name><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Neck><Shoulder><Name>Iron-studded Mantle</Name><Enchant>Greater Inscription of the Axe</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Shoulder><Back><Name>Drape of the Deadly Foe</Name><Enchant>Major Agility</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Back><Chest><Name>Conqueror's Scourgestalker Tunic</Name><Enchant>Powerful Stats</Enchant><Gem1>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem1><Gem2>Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></Chest><Wrist><Name>Mechanist's Bindings</Name><Enchant>Greater Assault</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem2></Wrist><Hands><Name>Gloves of the Fiery Behemoth</Name><Enchant>Major Agility</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem3></Hands><Waist><Name>Belt of the Betrayed</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem3></Waist><Legs><Name>Saronite Mesh Legguards</Name><Enchant>Icescale Leg Armor</Enchant><Gem1>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem1><Gem2>Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></Legs><Feet><Name>Boots of Living Scale</Name><Enchant>Superior Agility</Enchant><Gem1>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem1><Gem2>Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)</Gem2></Feet><Ring1><Name>Band of Draconic Guile</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1></Ring1><Ring2><Name>Metallic Loop of the Sufferer</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1></Ring2><Trinket1><Name>Darkmoon Card: Greatness</Name><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Trinket1><Trinket2><Name>Grim Toll</Name><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Trinket2><Ranged><Name>Giant's Bane</Name><Enchant>Heartseeker Scope</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Ranged><Ammo>Mammoth Cutters</Ammo></Gear>
Interesting:
Every 16ARP Gem gives an additional 2DPS(nonHardmode)/4DPS(Hardmode) compared to Agi Gems while "wasting" the procc..
Changing Flask of Endless Rage to the Elixir Combo is a DMG lose(?)
Manuall Calculations with procc uptime 20%:
Hardmode Gear + ARP gem:
9233.39*0.2+8284.92*0.8= 8474DPS. Spreadsheet gives 8520DPS. But with an internal CD (if that's the case) it is only up 10sec every 45sec ~0.22 (which would give 8495DPS)
HardmodeGear +AGI gems:
9565.31*0.2+8249.5*0.8= 8512 (or 8541DPS with 22%). Spreadsheet gives 8465DPS.
With no procc up, the difference between both is only 40DPS (for the ARP setup). But with the procc it's 330DPS for the Agi Setup. But 330DPS over 20% of the time is > 40DPS over 80% of the time (66>32).
And what I experienced so far with warriors is capping (1235ARP rating) and going for full STR/AP afterwards is "better".
(Personally: 2 points against full stacking ARP. Either it's a mistake in the spreadsheet or in the way of my thinking.)
Hmm @ Alduin,
Are you still using the rotation/prio where you leave out Arcane Shot completely ? Im still having trouble seeing the benefit/logic in this.
570ARP if you use Mjolnir (570+665=1235 capped)
623ARP if you use Grim Toll (623+612=1235 capped)
BiS Hardmode Gear:
Hunter DPS 7394,91
Pet Dps 1079,63
Total DPS 8474,55
Bufffood: Hearthy Rhino, Flask of Endless Rage
talents: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Gear
<Header><Version>V1</Version><Date>16.06.2009</Date><ProfileName>Mjolnir AgiGems</ProfileName></Header><Gear><Race>Orc</Race><MainHand><Name>Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned</Name><Enchant>Massacre (Two Hand)</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></MainHand><OffHand><Name>None</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></OffHand><Head><Name>Conqueror's Scourgestalker Headpiece</Name><Enchant>Arcanum of Torment</Enchant><Gem1>Relentless Earthsiege Diamond (21 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Stormjewel (20 Agility)</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></Head><Neck><Name>Pendulum of Infinity</Name><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Neck><Shoulder><Name>Mantle of Fiery Vengeance</Name><Enchant>Greater Inscription of the Axe</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Shoulder><Back><Name>Drape of the Faceless General</Name><Enchant>Major Agility</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Deadly Monarch Topaz (8 Agi, 8 Crit)</Gem2></Back><Chest><Name>Conqueror's Scourgestalker Tunic</Name><Enchant>Powerful Stats</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></Chest><Wrist><Name>Fluxing Energy Coils</Name><Enchant>Greater Assault</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem2></Wrist><Hands><Name>Gloves of the Steady Hand</Name><Enchant>Major Agility</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)</Gem2><Gem3>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem3></Hands><Waist><Name>Belt of the Betrayed</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem3></Waist><Legs><Name>Legguards of Cunning Deception</Name><Enchant>Icescale Leg Armor</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Dragon's Eye (27 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem2><Gem3>Delicate Dragon's Eye (27 Agi)</Gem3></Legs><Feet><Name>Boots of Living Scale</Name><Enchant>Superior Agility</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem2></Feet><Ring1><Name>Brann's Signet Ring</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1></Ring1><Ring2><Name>Brann's Sealing Ring</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1></Ring2><Trinket1><Name>Dark Matter</Name><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Trinket1><Trinket2><Name>Mjolnir Runestone</Name><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Trinket2><Ranged><Name>Skyforge Crossbow</Name><Enchant>Heartseeker Scope</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Ranged><Ammo>Mammoth Cutters</Ammo></Gear>
BiS Non Hardmode Gear:
Hunter DPS 6912,32
Pet Dps 1061,19
Total DPS 7973,51
Bufffood: Flask of Endless Rage, Hearthy Rhino
<Header><Version>V1</Version><Date>16.06.2009</Date><ProfileName>NonHardmode Loot</ProfileName></Header><Gear><Race>Orc</Race><MainHand><Name>Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned</Name><Enchant>Massacre (Two Hand)</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></MainHand><OffHand><Name>None</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></OffHand><Head><Name>Conqueror's Scourgestalker Headpiece</Name><Enchant>Arcanum of Torment</Enchant><Gem1>Relentless Earthsiege Diamond (21 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Stormjewel (20 Agility)</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></Head><Neck><Name>Broach of the Wailing Night</Name><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Neck><Shoulder><Name>Iron-studded Mantle</Name><Enchant>Greater Inscription of the Axe</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Shoulder><Back><Name>Winter's Frigid Embrace</Name><Enchant>Major Agility</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Back><Chest><Name>Conqueror's Scourgestalker Tunic</Name><Enchant>Powerful Stats</Enchant><Gem1>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem1><Gem2>Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></Chest><Wrist><Name>Mechanist's Bindings</Name><Enchant>Greater Assault</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem2></Wrist><Hands><Name>Gloves of the Fiery Behemoth</Name><Enchant>Major Agility</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem3></Hands><Waist><Name>Belt of the Betrayed</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem3></Waist><Legs><Name>Saronite Mesh Legguards</Name><Enchant>Icescale Leg Armor</Enchant><Gem1>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem1><Gem2>Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></Legs><Feet><Name>Boots of Living Scale</Name><Enchant>Superior Agility</Enchant><Gem1>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem1><Gem2>Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)</Gem2></Feet><Ring1><Name>Band of Draconic Guile</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1></Ring1><Ring2><Name>Metallic Loop of the Sufferer</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1></Ring2><Trinket1><Name>Darkmoon Card: Greatness</Name><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Trinket1><Trinket2><Name>Grim Toll</Name><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Trinket2><Ranged><Name>Giant's Bane</Name><Enchant>Heartseeker Scope</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Ranged><Ammo>Mammoth Cutters</Ammo></Gear>
Interesting:
Every 16ARP Gem gives an additional 2DPS(nonHardmode)/4DPS(Hardmode) compared to Agi Gems while "wasting" the procc..
Changing Flask of Endless Rage to the Elixir Combo is a DMG lose(?)
Manuall Calculations with procc uptime 20%:
Hardmode Gear + ARP gem:
9233.39*0.2+8284.92*0.8= 8474DPS. Spreadsheet gives 8520DPS. But with an internal CD (if that's the case) it is only up 10sec every 45sec ~0.22 (which would give 8495DPS)
HardmodeGear +AGI gems:
9565.31*0.2+8249.5*0.8= 8512 (or 8541DPS with 22%). Spreadsheet gives 8465DPS.
With no procc up, the difference between both is only 40DPS (for the ARP setup). But with the procc it's 330DPS for the Agi Setup. But 330DPS over 20% of the time is > 40DPS over 80% of the time (66>32).
And what I experienced so far with warriors is capping (1235ARP rating) and going for full STR/AP afterwards is "better".
(Personally: 2 points against full stacking ARP. Either it's a mistake in the spreadsheet or in the way of my thinking.)
Wait, why are you talking about caps? There is no cap. You can decrease armor mitigation to negative values thereby exponentially increasing dps. I think it's a mistake in your thinking unless of course I've missed something.
Wait, why are you talking about caps? There is no cap. You can decrease armor mitigation to negative values thereby exponentially increasing dps. I think it's a mistake in your thinking unless of course I've missed something.
You missed something. They capped armor pen at 100% ahwile back in a patch or hotfix, i forget which.
@Schmee:
Armor penetration increases the physical DPS (like Chimera but especially Auto and Steady Shot dmg). Arcane its magic (so ARP is useless). And it seems that getting more Improved Steady Shot proccs by using Steady insteed of Arcane and more proccs used for Chimera Shot are leading to higher DPS than using Arcane.
So -with Arp- Steady seems a better choice.
Having 3 points free of imp.Arcane leads to either putting them in BM or SV (not very much choice there) or in MM. Impr.Hunter's Mark is brought in by another hunter (+glyphed) so we can choose between mana reg talents (useless) or try to free up item budget via investing them in Focussing Shots (aka 3*32=96points we can use for Arp or Agility). I know that there are high +Hit items ingame, but 3 talent points are free and so we have space to use ARP gear.
(feel free to PM)
I get that messing around with Arp is still in its experimental phases. So I'm very much hesitating on replacing my agil gems with Arp. But what you're saying is: without gemming a large amount of Arp, Arcane would still be viable in the rotation?
*EDIT: Made a suggestion about switching Glyphs based on a mistake in my setup, sorry.
570ARP if you use Mjolnir (570+665=1235 capped)
623ARP if you use Grim Toll (623+612=1235 capped)
BiS Hardmode Gear:
Hunter DPS 7394,91
Pet Dps 1079,63
Total DPS 8474,55
Bufffood: Hearthy Rhino, Flask of Endless Rage
talents: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Gear
<Header><Version>V1</Version><Date>16.06.2009</Date><ProfileName>Mjolnir AgiGems</ProfileName></Header><Gear><Race>Orc</Race><MainHand><Name>Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned</Name><Enchant>Massacre (Two Hand)</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></MainHand><OffHand><Name>None</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></OffHand><Head><Name>Conqueror's Scourgestalker Headpiece</Name><Enchant>Arcanum of Torment</Enchant><Gem1>Relentless Earthsiege Diamond (21 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Stormjewel (20 Agility)</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></Head><Neck><Name>Pendulum of Infinity</Name><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Neck><Shoulder><Name>Mantle of Fiery Vengeance</Name><Enchant>Greater Inscription of the Axe</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Shoulder><Back><Name>Drape of the Faceless General</Name><Enchant>Major Agility</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Deadly Monarch Topaz (8 Agi, 8 Crit)</Gem2></Back><Chest><Name>Conqueror's Scourgestalker Tunic</Name><Enchant>Powerful Stats</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></Chest><Wrist><Name>Fluxing Energy Coils</Name><Enchant>Greater Assault</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem2></Wrist><Hands><Name>Gloves of the Steady Hand</Name><Enchant>Major Agility</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)</Gem2><Gem3>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem3></Hands><Waist><Name>Belt of the Betrayed</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem3></Waist><Legs><Name>Legguards of Cunning Deception</Name><Enchant>Icescale Leg Armor</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Dragon's Eye (27 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem2><Gem3>Delicate Dragon's Eye (27 Agi)</Gem3></Legs><Feet><Name>Boots of Living Scale</Name><Enchant>Superior Agility</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem2></Feet><Ring1><Name>Brann's Signet Ring</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1></Ring1><Ring2><Name>Brann's Sealing Ring</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>Delicate Scarlet Ruby (16 Agi)</Gem1></Ring2><Trinket1><Name>Dark Matter</Name><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Trinket1><Trinket2><Name>Mjolnir Runestone</Name><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Trinket2><Ranged><Name>Skyforge Crossbow</Name><Enchant>Heartseeker Scope</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Ranged><Ammo>Mammoth Cutters</Ammo></Gear>
BiS Non Hardmode Gear:
Hunter DPS 6912,32
Pet Dps 1061,19
Total DPS 7973,51
Bufffood: Flask of Endless Rage, Hearthy Rhino
<Header><Version>V1</Version><Date>16.06.2009</Date><ProfileName>NonHardmode Loot</ProfileName></Header><Gear><Race>Orc</Race><MainHand><Name>Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned</Name><Enchant>Massacre (Two Hand)</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></MainHand><OffHand><Name>None</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></OffHand><Head><Name>Conqueror's Scourgestalker Headpiece</Name><Enchant>Arcanum of Torment</Enchant><Gem1>Relentless Earthsiege Diamond (21 Agi)</Gem1><Gem2>Delicate Stormjewel (20 Agility)</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></Head><Neck><Name>Broach of the Wailing Night</Name><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Neck><Shoulder><Name>Iron-studded Mantle</Name><Enchant>Greater Inscription of the Axe</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Shoulder><Back><Name>Winter's Frigid Embrace</Name><Enchant>Major Agility</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Back><Chest><Name>Conqueror's Scourgestalker Tunic</Name><Enchant>Powerful Stats</Enchant><Gem1>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem1><Gem2>Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></Chest><Wrist><Name>Mechanist's Bindings</Name><Enchant>Greater Assault</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem2></Wrist><Hands><Name>Gloves of the Fiery Behemoth</Name><Enchant>Major Agility</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem3></Hands><Waist><Name>Belt of the Betrayed</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2><Gem3>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem3></Waist><Legs><Name>Saronite Mesh Legguards</Name><Enchant>Icescale Leg Armor</Enchant><Gem1>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem1><Gem2>Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)</Gem2><Gem3>None</Gem3></Legs><Feet><Name>Boots of Living Scale</Name><Enchant>Superior Agility</Enchant><Gem1>Fractured Scarlet Ruby (16 ArP)</Gem1><Gem2>Fractured Dragon's Eye (27 ArP)</Gem2></Feet><Ring1><Name>Band of Draconic Guile</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1></Ring1><Ring2><Name>Metallic Loop of the Sufferer</Name><Enchant>None</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1></Ring2><Trinket1><Name>Darkmoon Card: Greatness</Name><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Trinket1><Trinket2><Name>Grim Toll</Name><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Trinket2><Ranged><Name>Giant's Bane</Name><Enchant>Heartseeker Scope</Enchant><Gem1>None</Gem1><Gem2>None</Gem2></Ranged><Ammo>Mammoth Cutters</Ammo></Gear>
Interesting:
Every 16ARP Gem gives an additional 2DPS(nonHardmode)/4DPS(Hardmode) compared to Agi Gems while "wasting" the procc..
Changing Flask of Endless Rage to the Elixir Combo is a DMG lose(?)
Manuall Calculations with procc uptime 20%:
Hardmode Gear + ARP gem:
9233.39*0.2+8284.92*0.8= 8474DPS. Spreadsheet gives 8520DPS. But with an internal CD (if that's the case) it is only up 10sec every 45sec ~0.22 (which would give 8495DPS)
HardmodeGear +AGI gems:
9565.31*0.2+8249.5*0.8= 8512 (or 8541DPS with 22%). Spreadsheet gives 8465DPS.
With no procc up, the difference between both is only 40DPS (for the ARP setup). But with the procc it's 330DPS for the Agi Setup. But 330DPS over 20% of the time is > 40DPS over 80% of the time (66>32).
And what I experienced so far with warriors is capping (1235ARP rating) and going for full STR/AP afterwards is "better".
(Personally: 2 points against full stacking ARP. Either it's a mistake in the spreadsheet or in the way of my thinking.)
Could you please include your gear list instead of just using the gearstring for those of us without Excel?
I've been following this armor pen discussion for awhile and (correct me if Im wrong here) using Mjolnir Runestone you would begin gemming agility after you hit the 570 soft cap so that the trinket proc would not take you over the cap, however my question is this? What is the turning point that you would, gemming all armor pen, find a bigger dps increase using the Greatness card over Mjolnir Runestone?
I'd attempt this myself but Im lousy at using the spreadsheet
Armor penetration remains better per point even after reaching the 564-565 cap ( plus Mjolnir's Runestone ) . As for real live results - granted im far from BiS ArP setup i replaced my t8.5 shoulders and gloves ( loosing the 4x set Bonus ) , replaced a decent trinket from Kologarn , regemmed completely my SV orientated gear which in SV gave me whooping 1850 unbuffed agi , lost around 4% crit and around 400 AP and yet my results were in the same borders or better than by gemming Agi. Im not sure how precise our spreadsheet is, more tempted to believe the dps thats provided by using the google code application, but signs are that after reaching certain gear setup ArP vastly overtakes agility in terms of pure dps.
The biggest profit i see there is - it makes talents like Improved Steady Shot and Piercing Shots so much better - your deep wounds tick higher, by replacing Arcane Shot with an additional Steady Shot you increase the chance of a harder hitting yet cheaper mana wise Chimera Shot ( provided a proper rotation, Imp SS should almost never get consumed by Aimed Shot ) which imrpoves both the value of CS and your mana preservation through out a fight - and as mana is still a problem , as in you will have to eventualy go on viper on a couple of fights i believe its a significant plus as well.
To sum it up, ArP is in my opinion the better stat - IF you have Mjolnir's Runestone OR Grim Toll ( you will probably have to downgrade alot to get rid of the nasty ammount of Hit ) . Kinda sad that a class will have to shape around a single item, but its just too good offer to refuse - you end up being less dependant on having to not move, you get a drasticaly simpler rotation and a pretty reliable knowledge on when you can provide burst and pop cooldowns.
Modeling the benefit of Mjolnir using the spreadsheet as has been stated above, I've done a few incremental tests comparing equivalent amounts of ArP and Agility past the point where the mjolnir proc can be maximized. Results seem to indicate exactly as I stated, that Agility resumes being the better stat after 567 ArP exactly BECAUSE ArP scales exponentially. Intuitively this makes sense because 1 point of ArP is worth much more doing from 1231 to 1232 than from 566 to 567. The spreadsheet would seem to indicate that the waste and therefore LOSS of those high end ArP points even only 20% of the time from going beyond 567 ArP outweighs the benefit of mid range ArP vs Agility, i.e. gear for Agility after 567 ArP as usual.
Edit: I'll actually back this up with numbers when it isn't midnight >.<
I ran the numbers and it's more complicated. See the following table.
Shandara's SS was used. Gear is mostly BIS non-Algalon, MM build 7/57/7 with 3 in ISS, 0 in IHM, 3 in Focused Aim, but that doesn't matter that much. The Hand Adjust was used to set the actual ArP from 0 to 1232. The Mjolnir trinket was not used; I used Comet's Trail.
The first column is the actual ArP. The second is the computed DPS, which stops increasing at ArP=1232 as expected. The third column is the DPS assuming 700 additional ArP was available (I rounded up the Mjolnir proc to simplify things.) The fourth column is the mean dps assuming a proc uptime of 20%. The fifth column is the dps obtained by increasing agi by 100 at that particular value of ArP.
The first derivative column is the increase in dps from +1 ArP, assuming you don't use an ArP trinket. The second is if you do use an ArP trinket. The third is the increase in dps from +1 Agi at that ArP value (in the leftmost column.)
The table values will change somewhat with different gear, but it basically says that the hyperbolic growth of damage from ArP is enough that, even with the Mjolnir trinket, you want to aim for ArP (over Agi) in two regimes: around 550 and around 1150 ArP. If you don't have the trinket, you want to aim for Arp after around 650.
It'll be interesting to see if Icecrown gear adds enough ArP to enter the 1150 regime.
<snip> Very useful testing results </snip>
The table values will change somewhat with different gear, but it basically says that the hyperbolic growth of damage from ArP is enough that, even with the Mjolnir trinket, you want to aim for ArP (over Agi) in two regimes: around 550 and around 1150 ArP. If you don't have the trinket, you want to aim for Arp after around 650.
I can confirm the bolded part of your statement. Using my current gear profile, I used a similar method of hand adjusting ArP in intervals of 50 starting from 300 in an attempt to find the crossover point where the DPS gained per 1 ArP outweighs that from 1 Agility. Like your test, it was a talent build with 3/3 ISS and 3/3 Piercing Shots as well as the complete removal of Arcane Shot from the Shot Rotation. The results I obtained were similar to yours in that I found that 1 ArP began to improve DPS more than 1 Agility between the 650 and 700 ArP marks since I did not have the trinket.
The data in the table makes me wonder if it's worth gearing for Mjolnir + Grim Toll and stopping at ~620 passive ArP. Obvious problem being the identical procs could overlap far too often, but even if the buff uptime is increased to about 30% that's enough to be a net dps upgrade, I think.
So:
Without trinkets I aim for ~650Arp and then go for Agi.
With Mjolnir I aim for ~550Arp and then go for Agi.
With Grim Toll I (probably) aim for ~600Arp and then go for Agi.
Did I understand that right?
@all others: Yes, I will up a gear list. It's done when it's done.
And please PM "if you have nothing worthwhile to say".
06/14/09, 2:56 PM
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