Best Possible DPS in Shandaras WotLK Spreadsheet - Page 28

Hagen · 06/17/09, 3:40 AM

Originally Posted by Alduin

Armor penetration increases the physical DPS (like Chimera but especially Auto and Steady Shot dmg).

Just to remind you, because I read this mistake quite often: Chimera Shot does nature damage, even the normal part of it.

Rezdan · 06/17/09, 3:59 AM

Originally Posted by Alduin

So:
Without trinkets I aim for ~650Arp and then go for Agi.
<snip>

This is wrong. Simplified, without trinkets, you only gem/aim for ArP if you can get more than 650 ArP total. Without an ArP trinket, once you're a bit over 650 ArP and even before you hit 700 ArP, ArP will provide more dps per point than Agility meaning you would continue gemming for ArP.

Holas · 06/17/09, 7:56 AM

So correct me if I am wrong cranch but from your table at around 800-900 arp still using the arp proc trinket will result in a dps loss if you continue to gem for arp as the equivalent amount of agility will add a higher dps gain.

But if we swap the trinket for a none-arp proc trinket we may still gain more dps from gemming for Arp until the cap then we would from the equivalent amount of agility?

Alduin · 06/17/09, 8:11 AM

Originally Posted by Rezdan

This is wrong. Simplified, without trinkets, you only gem/aim for ArP if you can get more than 650 ArP total. Without an ArP trinket, once you're a bit over 650 ArP and even before you hit 700 ArP, ArP will provide more dps per point than Agility meaning you would continue gemming for ArP.

So if I'm not able to reach 650ARP, Agi is better.But if I can reach 650ARP, ARP will always be > Agi until I hit 1232ARP?

@Hagen: thanks.

slamft · 06/17/09, 8:47 AM

new best DPS SV no had modes
Complete DPS
Hunter DPS 6253,87 84,68%
Pet DPS 1131,82 15,32%
Total DPS 7385,69 100,00%
Gear Statistics
Agility 213 + 1992
Stamina 139 + 1477
Intellect 90 + 550
Attack Power 7730
Haste rating 280
ArP rating 262
Hit Rating 235
Crit Rating 993

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Caribald · 06/17/09, 12:16 PM

I believe I found an error in the current Best DPS Spreadsheet for MM (89f).

It uses 4 Dragon's Eye gems, which of course isn't possible. 3 of them are in blue sockets while the 4th is in a yellow socket. Also, there is a Glinting Monarch Topaz (+8 agi, +8 hit) in a yellow socket, but since you're already overcapped in the sheet, you gain about 11 more dps from using a Deadly Monarch Topaz (+8 agi, +8 crit).

Changing the yellow socket in the cape from Fractured Dragon's Eye (+27 arpen) to Deadly Monarch Topaz (+8 agi, +8 crit), and changing the Glinting Monarch Topaz (+8 agi, +8 hit) in the yellow socket in the legs to Deadly Monarch Topaz (+8 agi, +8 crit), I end up with 8362.33 dps.

In total this uses 3 Fractured Dragon's Eyes, 2 Deadly Monarch Topazes and 14 Fractured Scarlet Rubies (19R, 5Y, 3B). There might be something else that is better but not that I can figure out on my own.

Hunterlool · 06/17/09, 12:33 PM

Hey guys, I screenshotted our last IC hardmode kill after regemming for ArP instead of agility!
I resetted my recount right after Stormcaller Brundir died, so there was no Rune of Power still active.

I ended up having slightly less than 8000 DPS within the ~130 seconds. In comparison, a week before I only reached 7200 DPS with agility gems.

I screenshotted at first my dmg to Steelbreaker as a proof for a "only Steelbreaker" recount, secondly my ArP Value that I was runnning and afterwards the analysis of the different shots given by recount.

DMG to Steelbreaker overview
Armorpenetration value
Auto Shot
Steady Shot
Piercing Shots
Chimera Shot
Aimed Shot
Chimerashot Serpent
Kill Shot
Silencing Shot

My feeling is, that the 3 additional talent points due to not needing Arcane Shot and the better synergie between ISS & Piercing shots turn armorpenetration even over the soft cap into the best thing we can do for our highest DPS, at least on live servers.
Additionally, I definately don´t run OOM as fast as before and can produce better DPS while often switching targets ( for example during the Yogg-Saron encounter and XT-002 Deconstructor)

cheers

Trickytrout · 06/17/09, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Rezdan

This is wrong. Simplified, without trinkets, you only gem/aim for ArP if you can get more than 650 ArP total. Without an ArP trinket, once you're a bit over 650 ArP and even before you hit 700 ArP, ArP will provide more dps per point than Agility meaning you would continue gemming for ArP.

What you stated is correct if you don't have the trinket. Looking at the bolded numbers from Cranch's table, with the trinket you would begin gemming for Agi again after you have reached ~550 ArP.

ArP	DPS	ProcDPS	MeanDPS	+100 agi dps	dDPS/1Arp	dMeanDPS/1Arp	dDPS/1agi
0	7170	8098	7355.6	7307			
100	7280	8267	7477.4	7419		1.1		1.218		1.39
200	7397	8448	7607.2	7539		1.17		1.298		1.42
300	7521	8643	7745.4	7665		1.24		1.382		1.44
400	7652	8852	7892	7799		1.31		1.466		1.47
500	7791	9079	8048.6	7941		1.39		1.566		1.5
600	7939	9154	8182	8092		1.48		1.334		1.53
700	8098	9154	8309.2	8254		1.59		1.272		1.56
800	8267	9154	8444.4	8427		1.69		1.352		1.6
900	8448	9154	8589.2	8612		1.81		1.448		1.64
1000	8643	9154	8745.2	8812		1.95		1.56		1.69
1100	8852	9154	8912.4	9025		2.09		1.672		1.73
1200	9079	9154	9094	9256		2.27		1.816		1.77
1232	9154	9154	9154	9333		2.34375		1.875		1.79

Juneko · 06/17/09, 2:28 PM

Couldn't beast mastery see similar results from an arp heavy build by dropping arcane shot? This gives them a nearly 100% physical rotation at the cost of pet dps, which could also be beneficial on some fights.

Holas · 06/17/09, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by Juneko

Couldn't beast mastery see similar results from an arp heavy build by dropping arcane shot? This gives them a nearly 100% physical rotation at the cost of pet dps, which could also be beneficial on some fights.

Maby when arp if it ever does scale to pets but when i used the marksman bis gear changed the pet/talents/rotaion/glyphs too bm i got a dps decrease of ~400 over the current bis build inless i did somthing wrong.

Aeson · 06/17/09, 4:38 PM

The question was answered nevermind, sorry for wasting space.

ajthebest · 06/17/09, 5:09 PM

I'm sorry but I'm a little confused on the Arp thing. The way I read it, if i don't have the Arp trinky from thorim 10 man hardmode, gemming for Arp > gemming for Agi once you can hit 650 Arp (from gear / gems). If you have trinket then you could gem Arp once you hit 550 Arp (from gear / gems excluding the avg time the trinket is up). Did I hit the nail on the head?

Neruse · 06/17/09, 5:42 PM

The graph shows that with Mjolnir/GT the gap between more than ~550 passive ArP, but less than ~1150 ArP is where AGI is more dps than ArP, per budget point. It is more dps to gem for passive 550 ArP then go AGI than keep stacking ArP, UNLESS you can hit +1150 passive ArP. Somewhere around there you would also ditch the ArP proc trinket.

If you DON'T have an ArP proc trinket, AGI beats ArP for dps per budget until ~650 range. Generally.

Edit: For fixed numbers.

Cranch · 06/17/09, 6:20 PM

Originally Posted by Neruse

If you DON'T have an ArP proc trinket, AGI beats ArP for dps per budget until ~1150 range. Generally. Maybe closer to 1000. Depends on gearing/spec.

That's not correct. 1 Agi has the same item budget cost as 1 ArP (per wowwiki and the spreadsheet.) So, if you don't have an ArP proc trinket, gear up for ArP (in preference to Agi) after around 600-650 static ArP.

Juneko · 06/17/09, 9:23 PM

Originally Posted by Holas

Maby when arp if it ever does scale to pets but when i used the marksman bis gear changed the pet/talents/rotaion/glyphs too bm i got a dps decrease of ~400 over the current bis build inless i did somthing wrong.

If arp was transferred to pets it would easily be the best stat for bm since that gives them roughly 95% of their damage being physical, which is higher than any other spec in the game I think.

Going from mm to bm you will always loss dps currently. This pertained more to simply the best beast mastery dps numbers and if arp would give higher ones than the standard attack power.

grim4o4 · 06/18/09, 1:47 PM

@Hunterlool, What does your shot rotation look like gemmed purely for ArP? With Steady being such a large portion of your damage (according to your meters,) are you mainly hitting steady and keeping up Serpent Sting only casting Chimera when you proc ISS and then Aimed when you have to move? Or are you going with a typical rotation?

@Everyone talking about ArP. I was running some spreadsheet tests to see how much armor pen is really doable with current gear and it seems to me that without blacksmithing, JC, and epic gems, you can only really get up to 500 or so ArP and even gearing strictly for ArP the spreadsheet doesn't get to the point where it's valuing ArP over Agi so I'm curious what everyone else was finding.

Beachwanderer · 06/18/09, 2:52 PM

Originally Posted by grim4o4

@Everyone talking about ArP. I was running some spreadsheet tests to see how much armor pen is really doable with current gear and it seems to me that without blacksmithing, JC, and epic gems, you can only really get up to 500 or so ArP and even gearing strictly for ArP the spreadsheet doesn't get to the point where it's valuing ArP over Agi so I'm curious what everyone else was finding.

If you are starting from a "best possible build" using agil as your primary stat, some of the pieces aren't going to be in the top 10 until you start stacking more ArP. I know I've stacked it over 900 fairly easily, although I now realize that much isn't necessary.

Gozardina · 06/18/09, 4:21 PM

Originally Posted by grim4o4

@Hunterlool, What does your shot rotation look like gemmed purely for ArP? With Steady being such a large portion of your damage (according to your meters,) are you mainly hitting steady and keeping up Serpent Sting only casting Chimera when you proc ISS and then Aimed when you have to move? Or are you going with a typical rotation?

He broke it down in the screenshots he provided. There were 31 Serpent Sting ticks, 9 "Chimera Shot / Serpent refreshes" and 10 Chimera Shots fired total (along with 9 Aimed Shots). The data matches up with a standard rotation with the exception of opening up with a Chimera Shot.

Cranch · 06/18/09, 8:09 PM

Originally Posted by Holas

So correct me if I am wrong cranch but from your table at around 800-900 arp still using the arp proc trinket will result in a dps loss if you continue to gem for arp as the equivalent amount of agility will add a higher dps gain.

But if we swap the trinket for a none-arp proc trinket we may still gain more dps from gemming for Arp until the cap then we would from the equivalent amount of agility?

Correct. Note though that your total dps will likely drop when you switch to a non-ArP trinket.

Crunchynut · 06/18/09, 10:45 PM

So I think I'm not the only that wants a clear answer on this ArP topic.

As the -arcane shot MM build do we gear for 570 ArP WITH Mjolnir OR do we gear for maximum ArP (full ArP gems) and drop Mjolnir? Which is the ideal setup...

Jamishman · 06/19/09, 12:23 AM

Maybe I'm just missing something, but with Mjolnir at about 50% ArP on proc, Sunder and FF at 25%, why do we need 50% passive ArP to be soft capped?

sihyunie · 06/19/09, 12:53 AM

Because ArP is applied after Sunder and FF, not before. So you need 100% ArP to negate all armor, not 75% + Sunder and FF.

As for gearing for ArP, currently there is not enough ArP to warrant dropping Runestone. The way ArP scales exponentially, the value of Runestone is far greater than any other trinket.

Midnight · 06/19/09, 6:46 AM

Update to 89g.

I also switched to using rotation test results instead of frequencies as it´s a) default in the spreadsheet now, b) feels like it gives results closer to reality and c) everyone seems to be using it already anyway so I´m saving myself some headaches by declaring it default too...

On the matter of rotation tests, I explicity encourage tweaking around with the max time to wait for CDs as it´s propably got the potential of increasing your dps quite a bit while it´s also definatly in your hands to do so under real conditions.

slamft · 06/19/09, 8:38 AM

can u update non-hardmode Best-DPS Spreadsheet to 89g

Nachti · 06/19/09, 10:24 AM

To summarize:

If you got one of the ArP trinkets ([Grim Toll] or [Mjolnir Runestone]), you want to gem for ArP if you can reach around 550 ArP rating including gems, food etc.

If you have none of the trinkets above, you'll gem for ArP if you can reach around 650 ArP rating including gems, food etc.

The thing is, the more ArP you stack, the less value the [Mjolnir Runestone] will provide. So the question is, when does another trinket become superior to the Runestone?
The spreadsheet doesn't model it correctly I think, as it doesn't calculate the ArP cap. If it would, these things should occur:

You don't have one of the trinkets. The more ArP you get, the stronger further ArP. Think of an exponential graph. This is capped at 1232, so after that point, ArP won't provide any bonus at all.
You do have one of the trinkets. The more ArP you get, the stronger is further ArP until you reach 567 rating (1232 - 665 [if you have [Mjolnir Runestone]]). After that, the value of ArP should still increase, but not as much as you don't have the trinket. Think of the exponential graph from 1., but not as much rising as before after 567 ArP rating.

Now while I doubt that the value of ArP decreases after that point or any point later (so gemming agility would still result in a DPS loss), there should be one point at which [Dark Matter] or even the [Wrathstone] will become better than [Mjolnir Runestone]. Anyone bored enough to provide actual numbers for this?