I haven't seen this discussed anywhere, but seeing as SV is theoretically going to be the max dps build as of today, wouldn't it be better to put appropriate points into focused aim - even assuming no bug fix with pet not benefiting from FA, as the marginal pet dps loss may be worth itemizing gear with crit and haste over other gear with hit. Personally, I'm a few pieces away from all best in slot, but it will be a while, based on my dkp and drop rates, to fill the last spots and I've found that, at least through the spreadsheet, that I have a decent dps gain (with manually subtracting pet dps loss) by re-talenting w/ 2/3 FA with my available gear. I'm excited to test this when wow is back up today, just would like to hear thoughts...
I haven't seen this discussed anywhere, but seeing as SV is theoretically going to be the max dps build as of today, wouldn't it be better to put appropriate points into focused aim - even assuming no bug fix with pet not benefiting from FA, as the marginal pet dps loss may be worth itemizing gear with crit and haste over other gear with hit. Personally, I'm a few pieces away from all best in slot, but it will be a while, based on my dkp and drop rates, to fill the last spots and I've found that, at least through the spreadsheet, that I have a decent dps gain (with manually subtracting pet dps loss) by re-talenting w/ 2/3 FA with my available gear. I'm excited to test this when wow is back up today, just would like to hear thoughts...
Honestly, Hit is such a cheap stat, and is found in such abundance on higher gear. Why waste talent points that could be better spent in a place like IAotH, Imp Stings, etc? Not to mention, pet dps loss from normal effects isn't the only downside. Many pets rely on special attacks in order to do a large portion of their damage; without capped hit, their large-damage special attacks may miss.
Katrael you list 'Blacksmithing + Jewelcrafting' as professions but it seems you forgot to list the extra gem slots you get from Blacksmithing's Socket Gloves and Socket Bracer. Unless I am missing something of course.
Sorry forgot to list that on my itemlist since I had it entered in the hand adjust line. I'll edit my post to include it.
I saw that you guys used a Raptor within the Spreadsheet.However,I'd like to hear the reasons for doing so.Thank you
The simple answer is "that's what gave the highest result on the spreadsheet." The discussion is littered throughout almost every topic in this forum, but basically the nerfs to rake (cat) and scorpid poison (scorpid) have made it so that pet family abilities tend to play an increasingly smaller role. Most don't give very much dps (I've seen wasps and the nerfed rake at about 100dps - out of somewhere around 6000 total damage. In turn, this has enabled pets with indirect damage boosting abilities, like raptors and moths, to become more desirable.
Speaking of raptors, I'm wondering if moths would actually be more practical for Marks than raptors. The whole idea of savage rend is that it has to crit or it is simply a pitiful ability. Luckily it can be lined up kill command in most cases, but a build that has readiness is going to throw this off a bit. Either you don't use two kill commands around readiness, or the abilities become unsynched, since it does not effect the cooldown of savage rend.
Exactly. The Raptor is unreliable as top DPS. Personally it would give me slightly less DPS as Surv than a Cat. I can easily imagine Savage Rend never proccing on bossencounters due to the low crit the pet has in non-BM spec.
The Moth... Well that's an option that could be interesting. I haven't seen many comments regarding it, so I don't know if it's proc effect is +damage or +10% AP as the ability says (remember well the confusion regarding Monstrous Bite and Savage Rend back in the day). If it is damage, then it is for sure the better pet of it and a Raptor (a certain 25% uptime 10% damage buff). If it is AP, then it is weaker but perhaps equal in damave overall (and obviously better with Survs as their pets have more AP than MM pets). Has anyone actually tested this out?
[EDIT] Just noticed that Serenity Dust doesn't appear to get calculated in the spreadsheet. I make it a priority for the pet and no damage is increased anywhere, eventhough the fight is 6 mins long. So it is hard to guage at the moment if it is a better option.
Last edited by KraxisSingular : 01/20/09 at 6:15 PM.
Serenity Dust is a great option. I've been leveling a Moth all day. It heals for a minimal amount, but always provides +10% AP, that stacks with everything, and lines up with Kill Command everytime for Survival. In my Survival build I only have 1 point in Focused Fire, so Savage Rend will rarely crit and equal out to a Moth's DPS. Combine that with Bloodlust and Call of the Wild the first time in a fight, and it's quite a potent ability. I really think this is the best option for a pet for MM/Survival after the patch.
I have been reading this forum and I seem to gather that one of the possible top specs for Survival is 6/14/51, which brings me to my question. Does this account for any passive haste that you may have? I only ask this because with that build you go 5 points into iaoth and I want to make sure that even soft haste capped at 522 ( or 523, I forget ) that it is still a viable build. Thanks in advance.
Just look at the gear set tied to the build to see the passive haste, and yes this haste is accounted for since its a *total* best overall build and not just a best talent build.
...I want to make sure that even soft haste capped at 522 ( or 523, I forget )...
Assuming you're in a raid and you run a ret Paladin or Boomkin, Passive haste cap is lowered by roughly 100 (due to 3% haste auras) so the true "soft-cap" on Haste is closer to 400 after factoring in reasonable latency.
That said, factoring IAotH procs as haste is poor idea due to it's maximum uptime only being around 50% on a consistent basis.
Haste is never a bad stat, a lesser stat sure, but a glyphed IAotH is still a significant DPS boost.
I noticed someone on the first page had a pet priority. Is there a way to make your pet use its special ability like putting it in a macro? Also, do you use a macro for some of your shots if not all? I came up with this spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
It's very similar to other "cookie cutter" specs, I thought that the reduced CD on RF could help. Let me know what you think.
EDIT: Does Noxious Stings increase serpent damage 24/7 or just after wyvern is dispelled?
The "pet priority" you are seeing is the order the pet abilities are listed in the spreadsheet, which affects computed DPS.
Noxious Stings does what the tooltip says, 24/7 (assuming serpent is up): "increases all damage done by you on targets afflicted by your Serpent Sting by 3%"
There's something I am probably doing wrong, because I don't understand why setting Aimed Shot, and then Multishot in the Shot priority shows a DPS increase.
I can understand why in game you would consider them both "GCD-worthy", depending on the number of targets, etc, but the spreadsheet seems to not know that you fire one OR the other.
In other words, RF > SerS > ES > AimS > MS > SS should, in my opinion, produce exactly the same DPS as RF > SerS > ES > AimS > SS. Except it does not.
I could, of course, have posted this in the spreadsheet thread, but it's the "optimal shot priority" part from here that made me think about it.
[EDIT] Just noticed that Serenity Dust doesn't appear to get calculated in the spreadsheet. I make it a priority for the pet and no damage is increased anywhere, eventhough the fight is 6 mins long. So it is hard to guage at the moment if it is a better option.
I could have sworn I responded to this already. Anyway, Serenity Dust is being calculated, it just isn't being looked at in the priority queue. If you look in the Pet Calculations tab, there's a table to calculate an average AP from Serenity Dust and then this is used in the AP table (C:15). As long as you have a moth, it's assumed you're using this ability.
Since the OP has assigned Post #8 as the spec to compare DPS to, I think it would be helpful if all posters described two things if you're going to post a max dps spec.
Please include the following if you want your spec to be compared:
1) Horde or Alliance. While dwarf/troll/orc have racials that affect damage output, they don't really change your gear layout. However, the draenei racial does have a big impact on gear choice. Therefore, there should be an alliance optimal setup and a horde optimal setup. As a Night Elf I can't reach the numbers of a dwarf, but I can put in dwarf on the spreadsheet for comparison to other people but won't affect gear choice.
2) Please enter the current DPS max's spec into your spreadsheet and post it as well; this is so that we know your numbers are using the same buffs and other spreadsheet parameters not related to gear/talents. SO post your max dps value, and then Post #8's dps value using your spreadsheet.
Vaxum's Best-in-Slot setup (Post 3) nets a higher total DPS than the one currently shown by Neruse (post 8) and on the first post. Is there any reason why that is being ignored?
Probably Midnight just didn't get round to updating the 1st post yet.
You are correct though - the "best SV" setup as listed in the 1st post & on post #8 has a few issues that make it pretty obviously not a best-possible-DPS:
- It spends 1 point on Trap Mastery instead of Expose Weakness (which is a spreadsheet DPS upgrade)
- It was designed before Draenei was allowed, so it is now 33 over the hitcap (i.e. missing possible DPS stats)
- The rotation in the 1st post is using both Aimed & Multi, which Neruse already pointed out is impossible
I wish I could use the Character Customization feature to swap to Dwarf...
I could have sworn I responded to this already. Anyway, Serenity Dust is being calculated, it just isn't being looked at in the priority queue. If you look in the Pet Calculations tab, there's a table to calculate an average AP from Serenity Dust and then this is used in the AP table (C:15). As long as you have a moth, it's assumed you're using this ability.
You did (in the spreadsheet thread), but I posted this ahead of your response... in fact it was ahead of the other one. I more or less just forgot about it after your answer.
Something I've been trying to figure out with the spreadsheet is why it doesn't seem to value being at steady shot haste cap very high. Being in raids with 11%~ haste from gear, i notice my cast time on steady at 1.6 sec meaning on an average rotation when Multi-Shot CD is down, i'm pushing back each explosive in that rotation by .3 sec. Seems to me like this would be a pretty sizable dps loss but all of these max dps gear builds are well below the 15% we would need to get to that magic 1.5 cast on steady. If anyone has a simple answer to this, something I'm missing or just not understanding correctly I'd love to know, but it just doesn't smell right to me.
Vaxum's Best-in-Slot setup (Post 3) nets a higher total DPS than the one currently shown by Neruse (post 8) and on the first post. Is there any reason why that is being ignored?
I actually made some quick&dirty changes to it to come closer to the hit cap. Also when using the layouts given here I keep getting slightly diffrent DPS numbers than the one given at the forum. Bottom line was the modified post #8 yielded a little bit more DPS. I´m going to try for doing a better SV template myself and upload the resulting spreadsheet later today.
FaceShooter - a hunter shot recommendation AddOn
The optimism of action is better than the pessimism of thought.
- Greenpeace UK
Would it be possible to upload a copy of the spreadsheet that has all the appropriate buffs and defaults set already? That way it can be posted with a list of things you're allowed to change with the rest not to be touched and it may help cut down on the occasions where the submitter's and moderator's spreadsheet gave different numbers, something that plagued the BC version of this thread and has already shown up here.
Trap dancing isn´t modeled into the spreadsheet in any shape or form. The question would propably fit better to either the Survival or Simple Questions/Simple Answers thread.
I re-checked the specs and got a bit different results again. I updated my first post accordingly and also included a downloadlink for the spreadsheet including all 3 specs.
Note #1: The spreadsheet doesn´t seem to save the elixirs for MM and SV properly. If I reload either profile the elixirs are missing again. It works fine for the buff food and flasks.
Note #2: Reloading the saved BM profile gave me exactly 0,7% crit less than it should according to what I had written down here and to what the spreadsheet itself said in the profile row in the overview tab. Saving the profile again gave me the same lower crit value. I couldn´t reproduce the higher number I got when I first saved it.
FaceShooter - a hunter shot recommendation AddOn
The optimism of action is better than the pessimism of thought.
- Greenpeace UK
Vaxum's is indeed best so far, but it requires a draenai. I made mine on the assumption there was no draenai, a BiS that would be consistent across factions.
I get 6780 dps using Vaxum's, and 6763 dps using mine.
Perhaps split it across factions. Vaxum's would be alliance BiS, Neruse's would be horde BiS. Orc hunters definitely would be 1% below hit cap with the former.
01/20/09, 12:48 PM
Similar Threads
