Armor pen gives pretty much the same +DPS% regardless of target armor as long as its over 8317 as per wowwiki.
Also I'm pretty sure the 100% cap is unaffected by sunders/whatnot since those effects actually reduce target armor whereas armor pen only ignores it (e.g. if you were the boss and you looked at your character pane you would only see armor reduction from sunders). I am not sure how it stacks with armor ignore talents like serrated blades/mace spec but it doesn't apply to hunters anyway.
You're right, the 100% cap is unaffected by sunders and fairy fire, minimizing a targets armor will still require 100% ArP. The armor ignore talents would reduce that number since they are additive, but as you said that doesn't apply to hunters.
Originally Posted by Iroared
I might have misunderstood you, but isn't that what the pawn string in overview is for?
I unfortunately use a Mac so I'm unable to access a lot of the features of the spreadsheet...this may in fact be correct. All I was trying to say previously was that comparing the +100agilDPS number to the MeanDPS number in the aformentioned table is inaccurate. I was attempting to give an example of something that would be closer to accurate....but really it was just extra information.
If there was an additional column calculating "+100agil MeanDPS", it would then be appropriate to compare that column to the "MeanDPS" of the row below. Therefore you'd be able to see what is of more advantage to gain - 100 agil? or 100ArP? while still maintaining the proc trinket.
Excellent suggestion. Here's an expanded table (still using +700ArP as the proc.)
The interesting columns are the Agi-ArP ones, which show the difference in dps if you were to gain +100Agi or +100ArP, without and with an ArP trinket. ("meanDPS" is with the trinket.)
In my opinion, the best way to summarize this table is to say:
Given the known gear, ArP or Agi are equally good for a marksman build (within 0.6%) regardless of whether you have an ArP trinket or not.
If you care about that 0.6%, the table will tell you when to focus on ArP versus Agi.
In my opinion, the best way to summarize this table is to say:
Given the known gear, ArP or Agi are equally good for a marksman build (within 0.6%) regardless of whether you have an ArP trinket or not.
If you care about that 0.6%, the table will tell you when to focus on ArP versus Agi.
Would just like to ask, did you change anything else than Agi<->ArP? (in your original post you mentioned only one spec... some of it atleast)
Cause i believe more accurate dps numbers would be gained if you changed spec/glyphs to suit those respective geming/gearing strategies.
So in column where you add 100Agi, add it to agi model (spec with IAS, Chimera glyph...)
100ArP should be added to model with no IAS, no arcane in rotation, IAotH glyph...
When i did that i gained much more than that 0.6%. but am to unsure of my results to post them, and where based on my gear only.
Would just like to ask, did you change anything else than Agi<->ArP? (in your original post you mentioned only one spec... some of it atleast)
Cause i believe more accurate dps numbers would be gained if you changed spec/glyphs to suit those respective geming/gearing strategies.
So in column where you add 100Agi, add it to agi model (spec with IAS, Chimera glyph...)
100ArP should be added to model with no IAS, no arcane in rotation, IAotH glyph...
When i did that i gained much more than that 0.6%. but am to unsure of my results to post them, and where based on my gear only.
The spreadsheet model uses a 7/57/7 talent build (no improved arcane shot, 3/3 focused aim), Glyphs of the Hawk, Serpent Sting, and Steady Shot. No arcane shot in the rotation. I didn't change the model when going with +100 agi. The gear was non-Algalon BiS except Mjolnir was replaced by Comet's Trail. Default 25 man buffs were used. The ArP and Agi values were hand-adjusted. The 0.6% comes from -54/9025.
Adding Arcane to the rotation gives +14 more dps at ArP 0, +4 more dps at ArP 100, and goes negative after that. I kept the rotation constant to minimize the number of variables changing, and the previous sentence shows that decision does not change the argument.
Finally, it makes no sense to do +100Agi to the "agi model" as the "ArP model" has more dps.
Remember, I started with the semi-BiS (Agi,ArP) = (1927,671) and perturbed the ArP by (-671..561) and the Agi by (0..100). That gives you a space of (Agi,ArP) pairs that are likely unrealizable by actual in-game gear but does show the relative importance of Agi and ArP.
Khunad: ropping Arcane Shot from your rotation and IAS from your talent build gives a DPS boost long before ArP becomes better than Agi per point. (It does so for me too) It gives you more chances for 4 piece T8 and Imprved Steady Shot procs to change your shot rotation and the freed up talent points supplement that.
How ArP can give you more chance for proc's ? I can't get it.
Ahh in that way, thought I miss something like ArP giving a chance to get a more proc, and it isnt its only allow you do more steadies and thanks that you can get more ISS procs.
I'm slightly confused and sure I am doing something wrong. When I put the shot rotation into the spreadsheet The dps drops around 2k. I'm sure its user error but this has not happened before maybe someone can help.
Great theory crafting in the last few pages, mainly I think I have understood the arp question for mm and how to use arp-agi dps sheets to know when to gem one or the other.
However I don't think I saw a documented/explained post saying when there is a dps gain taking AS out of the rotation, it must be at a certain lvl of arp I guess ?
Great theory crafting in the last few pages, mainly I think I have understood the arp question for mm and how to use arp-agi dps sheets to know when to gem one or the other.
However I don't think I saw a documented/explained post saying when there is a dps gain taking AS out of the rotation, it must be at a certain lvl of arp I guess ?
My limited understanding of is it's not the level, it's that Arp does not benefit Arcane Shot, so rather than put points in ImpArc, you are putting points into ISS, which does benefit from the Arp. Also, Arc is not eating up ISS procs, which are more of a benefit to Chimera.
Great theory crafting in the last few pages, mainly I think I have understood the arp question for mm and how to use arp-agi dps sheets to know when to gem one or the other.
However I don't think I saw a documented/explained post saying when there is a dps gain taking AS out of the rotation, it must be at a certain lvl of arp I guess ?
Yes you are right. At lower ArP levels what you can do is switch Imp.AS for Imp.SS and use the Chimera>Aimed>Arcane rotation. You still guarantee the Imp.SS proc going on Chimera but you only swap one Steady for one Arcane.
Up to a certain point Arcane will still hit a bit harder than Steady (including Piercing shots). Unless I am reading the spreadsheet wrong, that point should be at around 300 ArP. After that taking Arcane out of the rotation completely might be the better option. If someone could confirm that number it would be great.
The spreadsheet is obviously flawed and inaccurate. With the trinkets being averaged out it will always tell you to stack ARP over AGI. This has the gear / gems in the current BIS MM set flawed as well.
It seems apparent still there is no real reason to wear the 4 piece 8.5 so having said that it looks best to continue only using 2 piece 8.5 (helm/chest).
Now - I'm wearing alot of the BIS pieces right now but not everything.
Right now just in gear / gems I am sitting at 723 ARP. I don't have a runestone but I do have a Grim Toll. If I use a Grim Toll I should basically shed ruffly 140 ARP in gear and take ARP food. Once a runestone is obtained I would ultimately have to shed even more ARP. My question here is this.... If we are going to linger around the "soft cap" do we simply regem to AGI? Or do we change gear pieces and go with things like the Vezax 25 HM Neck and maintain our ARP gemming...
My thing with the ARP trinkets is that they only have something like a 20% uptime on a fight... We are ultimately dropping alot of passive ARP just to ensure that we are maximizing our ARP trinkets. It seems to be we are gimping ourselves by doing this and that simply stacking as much ARP as we can in an attempt to reach 1232 ARP is still the best way to go and that at some point we make a call saying that Wrathstone, Dark Matter and Comet's Trail surpass the runestone. It seems to me it makes the most sense to go with what we see as BIS gear on this thread but our trinkets should be Comet's Trail (haste for more white damage) and Dark Matter... Whether or not I am accurate I cannot say because my math is fail which brings me to these boards in the first place...
Where should we be going now? Do we stay with the Runestone and dumb down our passive ARP for it as it has been talked about for the last 2 pages or do we keep on stacking and just not use an ARP trinket and go with a Comet's Trail or a Dark Matter / Darkmoon Card... In the end, which is the best way to go? And while I realize that if you keep stacking the Runestone becomes worse and worse how much ARP do you need to have for instance to make it so that something like a Wrathstone / Darkmoon Card is > Runestone / Darkmoon Card?
Notice the bolded numbers. What it means is that after you reach the soft cap at about 550 ArP (while having the trinket) adding 100 Agility will result in better dps than adding another 100 ArP.
Now if you follow the 2 columns (meanDPS+100Agi and MeanDPS) all the way down you will see that adding 100 ArP more will always be slightly worse than adding 100 Agility. That should mean that soft cap + trinket and stacking agility should be the better option than going all out ArP stacking, with or without the trinket.
Now, I honestly have some trouble fully understanding that table but I think that is the most crucial part. Please correct any mistakes I made.
My thing with the ARP trinkets is that they only have something like a 20% uptime on a fight... We are ultimately dropping alot of passive ARP just to ensure that we are maximizing our ARP trinkets. It seems to be we are gimping ourselves by doing this and that simply stacking as much ARP as we can in an attempt to reach 1232 ARP is still the best way to go and that at some point we make a call saying that Wrathstone, Dark Matter and Comet's Trail surpass the runestone. It seems to me it makes the most sense to go with what we see as BIS gear on this thread but our trinkets should be Comet's Trail (haste for more white damage) and Dark Matter... Whether or not I am accurate I cannot say because my math is fail which brings me to these boards in the first place...
The reason it takes a certain threshold for ArP to become good is that it scales exponentially instead of linearly. The reason that you go back to gemming AGI after softcapping with an ArP trinket is that you start losing the benefit of the most valuable of your ArP ratings (those nearest the cap) when the trinket procs. So while yes while not procced gemming more ArP after softcap generates a bit more dps than gemming AGI, gemming AGI and still ArP capping on proc provides the best DPS benefit overall under perfect conditions. In essence ArP past the softcap gets wasted when your trinket procs, and the benefit of the proc is so great that even at only a 20% uptime, it is better to gem AGI and waste as little ArP rating as possible. Some of the above posts indicate that you'd only start gemming ArP after reaching 1100 rating if you have an ArP trinket (at which point of course you'd probably switch to an other trinket anyway). However reaching that lvl of passive ArP is not appreciably more DPS than softcapping with a Trinket, in fact it may even be less DPS overall. YMMV.
You are right that the sheet is not really accurate in this case. But check this out:
<snip>
Notice the bolded numbers. What it means is that after you reach the soft cap at about 550 ArP (while having the trinket) adding 100 Agility will result in better dps than adding another 100 ArP.
Now if you follow the 2 columns (meanDPS+100Agi and MeanDPS) all the way down you will see that adding 100 ArP more will always be slightly worse than adding 100 Agility. That should mean that soft cap + trinket and stacking agility should be the better option than going all out ArP stacking, with or without the trinket.
Now, I honestly have some trouble fully understanding that table but I think that is the most crucial part. Please correct any mistakes I made.
If I'm understanding the way that the spreadsheet computes the proc from the Mjolnir Runestone in the Best MM Template, it's taking the proc and just averaging it over the uptime, coming to an average of 129.58 ArP.
I removed the Mjolnir Runestone and made a custom version of Mjolnir (setting it's proc value at 655 and coming up with the same exact 8509.65 dps currently modeled. So I simply lowered it's proc value to 323 (given the cap, with a 900 passive ArP 323 the absolute most it could proc ever for).
This brings the actual Best MM Template from:
Hunter DPS 7452.20 87.57%
Pet DPS 1057.45 12.43%
Total DPS 8509.65 100.00%
Down to:
Hunter DPS 7317.73 87.37%
Pet DPS 1057.45 12.63%
Total DPS 8375.18 100.00%
Unless I made a glaring mistake in my reasoning this should more accurately reflect the current best theoretical DPS for a hunter.
The way the spreadsheet is calculating the runestone is wrong for multiple reasons.
The first reason is that ArP gains are exponential. Therefore having 655 ArP up 20% of the time is much better than having 129 ArP up 100% of the time. The difference I calculated with my top dps configuration was 45 dps. The current ArP without the proc is 563 ArP.
What the spreadsheet tells me my dps is: 8503.87
Actual dps based off of 20% uptime: 8548.98
The second reason is the one you caught where the cap comes into play. As the higher your ArP goes, the less beneficial the trinket becomes. The spreadsheet doesn't currently account for the cap. The third reason, which I don't currently own the trinket so I'm not positive on this one is that the actual ArP buff gained is 665, not 655.
If you have issues with the way the spreadsheet is calculating something, then perhaps the spreadsheet thread would be the best place to list your complaints so as to not clutter this thread. WotLK DPS spreadsheet
The way the spreadsheet is calculating the runestone is wrong for multiple reasons.
The first reason is that ArP gains are exponential. Therefore having 655 ArP up 20% of the time is much better than having 129 ArP up 100% of the time. The difference I calculated with my top dps configuration was 45 dps. The current ArP without the proc is 563 ArP.
What the spreadsheet tells me my dps is: 8503.87
Actual dps based off of 20% uptime: 8548.98
The second reason is the one you caught where the cap comes into play. As the higher your ArP goes, the less beneficial the trinket becomes. The spreadsheet doesn't currently account for the cap. The third reason, which I don't currently own the trinket so I'm not positive on this one is that the actual ArP buff gained is 665, not 655.
I´m gonna quote Shandara on this:
Originally Posted by Shandara
(..)RE: Armor Penetration procs and dps (in response to discussions in other threads as well).
Basically to properly value trinkets/abilities that have Armor Penetration as an effect you'd need to simulate each shot separately for them and see how much damage you gain. The sheet isn't really a full-blown simulation like that (although it does have some of it) and it would involve some radical changes to make it work.
Also it would make it nearly useless for the Gear Planner, since any simulation involves randomness which makes determining fixed stat values quite hard. Unless you'd have a great deal of iterations and eventually averaged out the values (like simulationcraft does).
Excel isn't really a suitable platform for that, because it's very SLOW.
If I'm understanding the way that the spreadsheet computes the proc from the Mjolnir Runestone in the Best MM Template, it's taking the proc and just averaging it over the uptime, coming to an average of 129.58 ArP.
I removed the Mjolnir Runestone and made a custom version of Mjolnir (setting it's proc value at 655 and coming up with the same exact 8509.65 dps currently modeled. So I simply lowered it's proc value to 323 (given the cap, with a 900 passive ArP 323 the absolute most it could proc ever for).
This brings the actual Best MM Template from:
Hunter DPS 7452.20 87.57%
Pet DPS 1057.45 12.43%
Total DPS 8509.65 100.00%
Down to:
Hunter DPS 7317.73 87.37%
Pet DPS 1057.45 12.63%
Total DPS 8375.18 100.00%
Unless I made a glaring mistake in my reasoning this should more accurately reflect the current best theoretical DPS for a hunter.
I did this, then I switched the Runestone to Dark Matter, which resulted in a DPS gain to 8400,37. Taking into account that the spreadsheet doesn't model that 20% uptime of 393 ArP is better than an average 20% of 393 ArP, I think it's safe to say that you should switch Mjolnir Runestone to Dark Matter once you reache ~850 ArP and have the opportunity to do so (Algalon, haha -.-).
The Runestone remains second BiS though, followed by Comet's Trail and Wrathstone.
To summarize again:
- Start gemming for ArP if you can reach ~650 ArP including buffs, or 550 ArP if you have the [Mjolnir Runestone] or [Grim Toll].
- Once (if ever) you reach around 850 ArP and you have the opportunity to obtain [Dark Matter], replace Mjolnir Runestone with it.
Using an ArP build lets you remove Arcane Shot from your rotation. Along with 3/3 Improved Steady Shot, your shot rotation becomes:
CS-AiS-SS-SS-SS-SS
Any ISS procs are guaranteed to boost Chimera Shot (a DPS gain) rather than randomly boosting Arcane Shot or Aimed Shot (A DPS loss).
Using this Rotation you'd be at a 9 Second Rotation.
You would need to Glyph Chim AND Aimed, and this just won't to, will it?
And as for Lags/Ping whatever, i would ALWAYS have to wait for MORE than 0.5 Second.
So would you suggest doing one more Steady or WAIT?
Using this Rotation you'd be at a 9 Second Rotation.
You would need to Glyph Chim AND Aimed, and this just won't to, will it?
And as for Lags/Ping whatever, i would ALWAYS have to wait for MORE than 0.5 Second.
So would you suggest doing one more Steady or WAIT?
This situation only occurs if you have steady shot hasted down to 1.5 seconds or lower, which would only generally happen if you have IAotH procced, or another haste buff such as Rapid Fire or Bloodlust. Regardless, you should most likely wait.
Really great information overall guys, thanks a lot, few questions though.
"Given the known gear, ArP or Agi are equally good for a marksman build (within 0.6%) regardless of whether you have an ArP trinket or not."
Does this mean Agi or ArP is 0.6% better?
I decided to re-gem everything ArP and see what my DPS would be, unfortunately the fights that we were concentrating on in 25 Uld required more moving then I wanted to test it on, and I don't think I got a good idea of if it was a DPS increase/decrease.
I do have a question though in regards to what you think I should do. I don't have any hard mode gear, and if I wear all my ArP gear with elixir/food buffs I can get up to 509 ArP. This is with the 2 pieces of the T7.5 (hands/legs).
Should I be using 2 set bonuses from T7 and T8 and be at 509 ArP or be at around 440 ArP and be using the T8 4 set bonus? If it matters, I am using the shot queue that does not include arcane at the moment.
06/23/09, 7:44 PM
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