i have been looking alot everywhere and all i see is some people using armor pen and some say stack agi.. i just want a straight up answer and hopefully get one quick plz... i'm thinking about re-gemming my 16 agi gems to 16 arm pen.. help plz ?

While using a 6/14/51 spec, elixir combo becomes better than using a flask, going up from 7685.66 to 7691.09

I have a fairly large amount of ArP and ArP is still about 30% less effective than Agi for me. I doubt ArP will ever be better than Agi with current available gear.

Updated the spreadsheet version 88c.
MM lost 61.56 dps propably due to the changes to CS whereas SV gained 12,85 dps. I also updated the BM template according to Thuors post (used Bright Scarlet Rubies instead of Delicate ones in the Staff though). I guess both the BM and SV templates got room for significant improvement though.

It looks good now, at least for the Survival build.

I was able to gain ~6 total dps for survival in that sheet by swapping some gear:
Nymph Heart Charm -> Broach of the Wailing Night (Bought with badges)
Shoulders of Misfortune -> Conquerer's Scourgestalker Mantle [Greater Inscription of the Axe, Delicate Scarlet Ruby]
Conquerer's Scourgestalker Legguards -> Saronite Mesh Legguards [Icescale Leg Armor, Delicate Scarlet Ruby, Vivid Forest Emerald] (Razorscale)

Edit: I made the same mistake that the poster above me pointed out. With the gear swaps and enchant fix, makes the total DPS 7406.54

Since when was the site and the thread about not maximising your character? The statement of "not everyone is able to get hardmode items" lends itself to bad players and/or bad guilds. Nobody should be aiming for less than the best - that sort of crap belongs in the dung heap.

On the contrary, gearlist posts (including hard mode or not) help many people in making gearing/loot list decisions. Would you not agree that a reasonable goal for everyone would be to aim for a much more attainable non-hardmode BiS setup, THEN try and fill in the hard mode BiS items as they come? IMO, this is much more realistic and helpful for gearing than a set that includes all of the best gear from all of the hardest bosses/modes. As long as both lists (including hard mode and not) are in demand and helpful, which they appear to be, than there is no harm in including them here. On the other hand, comments from players who believe that everyone who isn't on their level are bad...how should I say this- that sort of crap belongs in the dung heap.

It can be quite hard to determine the BiS gear. If you look at all the gear available, in hard-mode also, then it keeps changing as people tweek it here and there. People who don't have access to hardmode, because their guilds are not doing them, also need some help to determine BiS gear for them.
If it was so easy to model a complete BiS set, then the initial set wouldn't have needed to be posted here either for everyone to see, because people could just look for themselves in the spreadsheet.
It's quite a big help for non-hardmode raiders to know what optimal gear set outside of hardmode raids they should aim for eventually.

The argument that "it hasn't been done in the past" is just crap tbh.. So you're saying we should never do anything new and just stick to the old ways? The difficulties in the game varies as well as the game and players themselves, if more and more people feel they aren't able to experience the hardest stuff available, then why shouldn't this thread expand itself to include them also? Afterall we all just want to become our best within our limits - and in that sense this thread is still sticking to it's topic - best POSSIBLE dps (for those that can't do hardmode also now).

I have no problems with you aiming for a non-hardmode set, but i would not agree it is "a reasonable goal for everyone to aim for" non-hardmode BiS items. Make a separate thread and title it "Best Possible Non-Hardmode Ulduar Gearlist", and please leave this thread as it is intended. All the posts debating hard mode vs non hard mode has dramatically increased the number of pages, and I have to filter through every time to find what is currently the best gear-list available. If you need help making a gearing/loot decision, the spreadsheet clearly shows what items are from Hard-Mode, and what are not. There are also individual threads based on spec, that you can appeal to if you are still not sure. Next thing you know people will want only 10 man lists or 25 man + 10 man hard mode lists.... all this is in the spreadsheet, if an item is not obtainable by your current guild progression the spreadsheet tells you the next best thing.

Please Elitist Jerks moderators, clear up this issue, delete the QQ posts and put this thread back to what it is intended to be.

Edit: On a complete side note I have played with 88c today, and tried something different: Loading All armor pen gems, Grim Toll + Mjolnir Runestone, and other high armor pen gear options. I am a survival hunter so I'm not sure if I'm implementing all the right MM choices, but I am getting Agility + 1, 1.569, and ArP Rating+1, 1.413 per item budgets. This means with current available gear we are getting extremely close to armor pen being a viable option over agility. Perhaps there is a way to tweak the rotation or some other feature to show ArP finally coming out greater?

Please delete - I postet the reply in the MM discussion thread.

Several tests are showing that we aren't reaching it with currently available gear. But if you wanted to do some testing, just create custom gear, and see where it balances out for you.