Really great information overall guys, thanks a lot, few questions though.
"Given the known gear, ArP or Agi are equally good for a marksman build (within 0.6%) regardless of whether you have an ArP trinket or not."
Does this mean Agi or ArP is 0.6% better?
I decided to re-gem everything ArP and see what my DPS would be, unfortunately the fights that we were concentrating on in 25 Uld required more moving then I wanted to test it on, and I don't think I got a good idea of if it was a DPS increase/decrease.
I do have a question though in regards to what you think I should do. I don't have any hard mode gear, and if I wear all my ArP gear with elixir/food buffs I can get up to 509 ArP. This is with the 2 pieces of the T7.5 (hands/legs).
Should I be using 2 set bonuses from T7 and T8 and be at 509 ArP or be at around 440 ArP and be using the T8 4 set bonus? If it matters, I am using the shot queue that does not include arcane at the moment.
Thanks for any help you can give.
According to my calculations whether or not Agi or ArP is better depends entirely on "when" you ask the question. Assuming you have a ArP trinket like Grim or Mjolnir you should gem agility unless you can get close to the passive ArP cap (including food/elixir) of 620 for Grim Toll and 567 for Mjolnir Runestone.
Gearing ArP is nice but butchering your other stats and bonuses to get there doesn't pay off. If you're falling pretty far short of these caps you're probably taking a substantial dps hit.
My suggestion is to stick with Agi focused gear/gems until you're able to comfortably get to the passive ArP cap with a trinket. (If you don't have a trinket the point is entirely moot and you should be 100% agil focused.)
After you've hit the ArP cap you should start gearing toward agility again. These are calculations I've done to figure relative stat values after the hit cap At 580 passive ArP:
8534.03 proc dps
7345.84 w/o proc dps 7583.62 mean dps
If I switch 3 agil gems to ArP I get this: At 628 passive ArP:
8447.53 proc dps
7341.40 w/o proc dps 7562.62 mean dps
Because of the exponential scaling of ArP this Agil > ArP rule past the passive ArP cap doesn't remain true indefinitely. I believe there's another threshold of passive ArP where stacking more ArP clearly becomes more beneficial. I'll leave it to someone else to figure out where that line is.
In best MM DPS example just change 2 things.
1.Glyph of Aimed Shot --> Glyph of the Hawk.
2.regem 27ArP from chest to bracers, to fit yellow socket.
In total.
Hunter DPS:7551.30
Pet DPS:1057.54
Total DPS:8608.84
P.S. Even if you change Runestone with Darkmoon Card Total DPS has increase 8510.03 ^^
In best MM DPS example just change 2 things.
1.Glyph of Aimed Shot --> Glyph of the Hawk.
2.regem 27ArP from chest to bracers, to fit yellow socket.
In total.
Hunter DPS:7551.30
Pet DPS:1057.54
Total DPS:8608.84
P.S. Even if you change Runestone with Darkmoon Card Total DPS has increase 8510.03 ^^
Regards
You forgot to press the "Test Rotation" button... After pressing, dps goes down below 8.5k.
No, ArP is calculated after armor debuffs. The debuffs reduce the armor, ArP as the name says penetrates armor. Different mechanics.
To expand on this explanation slightly:
Your target has 10,000 armor.
You have 100% Armor pen, which only effectively removes ~86% of this targets armor due to level difference and mechanics implemented to prevent armor from going negative (I believe this number is accurate on level 83, please correct if not.)
Your target ends up with 2400 armor.
Sunder Armor and FF reduce 10000 armor to 7500 armor.
You have 100% armor pen (effectively ~86%)
Your target ends up with 1800 armor.
Sunder and FF affect the amount of armor you start with, but are not additive mechanics.
I was messing with the Best DPS MM profile and I replace aimed shot glyph with chimera glyph.
It gave a 49.25 dps increase.
It went from 8509.65 to 8558.90
This was done with 150ms after clicking test rotation in verison best_dps_89g
I'm probably just wrong, but I got higher dps dropping silencing shot from the shot rotation and hitting test rotation.
Does the spreadsheet count the shot under the same gcd is that why?
Also checked changing aimed to chimera glyph does increase dps. *and so does killshot by ALOT
using BIS MM profile and removing silencing shot and swapping aimed shot glyph for kill shot gave me 8853 dps.
I could repeat GreenWins, but could not repeat bumsquad test.
With just switching aimed glyph to chimaera I got 8558.90.
When exchanged JC gem from chest to bracer, as did Iloveyouall wrote, got 8565.96.
I'm probably just wrong, but I got higher dps dropping silencing shot from the shot rotation and hitting test rotation.
Does the spreadsheet count the shot under the same gcd is that why?
Are you just running out of mana when SilS is in your rotation? I see no gains from dropping it, other than lower Viper uptime on fights with JoW.
I downloaded the lastest version to try to recreate my results. I found that only after taking silencing shot off of the rotation would kill shot result in higher dps.
This is all I did
shot rotation is serpent>rapid fire>chimera>kill>aimed>bloodfury>readiness>steady
changed glyph of aimed shot to glyph of kill shot
went to rotation test and hit test rotation--->8853.53 dps
@ alienangel:
I haven't tried taking silencing shot of my rotation on any boss fights. I just noticed this in the spreadsheet. I agree with you, I can't imagine how dropping something that is on its own GCD could result in lower dps unless you run oom faster.
Yes I was asking about the spreadsheet - is it claiming you run oom while using SilS (i.e. if you're not using the Always On mode with aspect set to hawk, does your Hawk uptime drop below 100%?)?
Hey midnight, I know I asked this in the pass, but it wasn't done and perhaps you missed it. When you list the Best In slot on page 1, can you include which post # we can find that BIS. And if BIS is just a modification over someone elses original post, perhaps a BIS = post # 125 modified off post #107. I tried to DL the BIS excel spread sheets, but I cant seem to load anything outside the BIS hardmode BM and Non Hardmode SV.
@alienangel
using 'viper-regen' hawks uptime is not 100%, with silencing shot in the rotation its like 96.46% and w/o it its 97.27%
however not spec'in into silencing shot frees up a pt so u can put 2/2 rapid recup, bumping the hawk uptime to 99.84% hawk uptime. the dps drops a bit though 8843
@alienangel
using 'viper-regen' hawks uptime is not 100%, with silencing shot in the rotation its like 96.46% and w/o it its 97.27%
however not spec'in into silencing shot frees up a pt so u can put 2/2 rapid recup, bumping the hawk uptime to 99.84% hawk uptime. the dps drops a bit though 8843
Well that sounds like your answer right there - your original post just said you were dropping SilS from your rotation and seeing higher dps, you should have mentioned that you were also shuffling points around.
Set your aspect behaviour to Always On, and you should I think see no loss in dps from adding SilS to your rotation - if that's the case, then you were just running out of mana more often in your SilS spec/rotation (not finding the spreadsheet being buggy).
I'm guessing the dps drop when you have no SilS but RR is because... you're not firing silencing shots anymore.
Hey midnight, I know I asked this in the pass, but it wasn't done and perhaps you missed it. When you list the Best In slot on page 1, can you include which post # we can find that BIS. And if BIS is just a modification over someone elses original post, perhaps a BIS = post # 125 modified off post #107. I tried to DL the BIS excel spread sheets, but I cant seem to load anything outside the BIS hardmode BM and Non Hardmode SV.
Finding the BiS post is really not that difficult, not only that but the best potential dps for MM and SV is changing rather rapidly these days. For the sake of simplicity and efficiency I think many would find it beneficial to offer a link to the current BiS/best dps on the first page. It would save a lot of people from getting banned too
Since our pets will already be expertise capped as long as we're hit capped, it was obvious it'd be changed. I'm curious as to how much of a boost the changes will provide.
Not nearly enough. The problem lies in the fact that although the pet is a much larger portion of overall dps, you still have to have the hunter doing a high amount of damage for BM to compete with other specs. Until deep BM gets talents to improve steady shot and/or arcane shot more you're going to see the spec continue to under-perform.
This following is with Arp @ 572 - 24 (hand adjust) = 548, @ 549 ArP falls below Agility per point.
Agility + 1 1.521
ArP Rating+1 1.525
In a similar fashion I was trying to see exactly where I would be best off switching to Agi gems rather than ArP.
One thing I noticed is that you can't just hand adjust -20 ArP and compare that stat ratio with Agilty+1 vs ArP+1. Gaining 20 ArP would mean losing 20 Agi (and vice versa.)
To get more accurate numbers I was calculating:
-empty trinket slot instead of [Mjolnir Runestone]
-hand adjusting +102 Crit Rating
-taking that DPS total and multiplying by 0.8011 (80.11% trinket downtime)
-hand adjusting 665 Arp (or less up to the 1232 cap)
-taking the new DPS total and multiplying by 0.1989 (19.89% trinket uptime)
-adding the two DPS results together and using that sum to compare ArP vs Agi benefits
I yeilded the highest "recalculated DPS" at 564 total ArP. That DPS was higher than putting in two 16 ArP gems in place of a 27 ArP and 16 Agi gem (effectively adding 5 ArP to a new sum of 569 total ArP.)
It was also higher than using two 27 ArP and one 16 Agi gem rather than a three 16 ArP gem (effectively losing 6 ArP to a new sum of 558 ArP.)
The spreadsheet itself (without recalculating the Mjolnir proc manually) leads you to believe the 569 ArP setup would provide the highest DPS, but recalculating had 564 highest of the three setups. So presumably the "sweet spot" is between 558-569... most likely 566 or 567 depending on fractional rounding. Nonetheless between all 3 setup the recalculated total DPS only had a delta of 2 DPS, so anywhere close isn't really noticeable.
Ok, I have some concerns with the ARP gem/gearing scene. Is it heavily rng based to get the numbers shown like I am hearing? I have 619 passive ARP, plus I have grimtoll. My rotation leaves out arcane, and has 3/3 in Improved steady shot. For some reason I am doing less dps then when I used AGI gems and didn't focus completely on arp gear. I am using Arcane when on the move, and steady shot when not. I'm by no means doing bad dps, but a MM in my guild who didnt ever outdps/damage me all of a sudden is beating me on fights, or staying really close. I'm just not feeling ARP, and am wondering if anyone else is getting results like mine.
And as to the question of randomness, the ArP MM build (with [Mjolnir Runestone]) relies heavily on making up some "lost DPS" out of proc with the number they are doing while the trinket is active.
Outside of the proc (At 564 ArP) my DPS was 8283.26.
During the proc (at 1229 ArP) it jumps to 9492.67.
My ArP BiS (564 ArP with MR and no 4pc) averages 8401.04 (as a troll) vs Agi BiS (393 ArP with MR and 4pc) 8305.20
Not nearly enough. The problem lies in the fact that although the pet is a much larger portion of overall dps, you still have to have the hunter doing a high amount of damage for BM to compete with other specs. Until deep BM gets talents to improve steady shot and/or arcane shot more you're going to see the spec continue to under-perform.
The only REAL problem with BM is that fight gimmick buffs rarely if ever affect the pet (Yogg, Hodir, Thaddius, IC, Vezaxx, etc). Although the DPS is theoretically lower by a substantial margin, BM has a much easier time reaching 90% of its theoretical maximum b/c of other things which do not affect the pet, especially ones that would cause the hunter to move. The pet remains DPSing in general a much higher percentage of your average Ulduar fight than the Hunter does. This also means that BW uptime when the hunter IS attacking is higher than is modeled in the spreadsheet b/c the hunter obviously uses it when she doesn't have to move. Fights with short periodic burn phases or fights with pauses in the fighting also inflate BM numbers higher than theory would indicate (Freya, XT, Mimiron, and in particular Hard Mode XT where having a hunter or two respec to BM if you are just on the cusp of killing the heart will easily push you over). I am of the opinion that if BM were ever capable of reaching the theoretical DPS numbers of MM or SV then there would be no reason to spec either of those simply because of the reasons I mentioned which inflate BM dps.
The only real fix needed is for fight gimmick buffs to affect pets as well. BM is a perfect example of a spec where theorycraft does not accurately model real world scenarios. The spreadsheet really does this spec a disservice, and I am a diehard Survival hunter who typically scoffed at BM even when it WAS the best spec.
Quick question. I have 528 passive ARP and Runestone, I can get 567 with gemming, but I'd prefer not to because I do actively switch to SV for some bosses. My question is, even at that much ARP, do I leave out Arcane Shot and take the road of reglyphing to steady/hawk/serpent? At the moment I am using Chimera/Kill/Serpent. I just find it hard to keep up on some fights with FULL arp setup do to all of the movement in ulduar. So ya, would it still be viable to leave my current glyphs intact, and arcane in my rotation?
Quick question. I have 528 passive ARP and Runestone, I can get 567 with gemming, but I'd prefer not to because I do actively switch to SV for some bosses. My question is, even at that much ARP, do I leave out Arcane Shot and take the road of reglyphing to steady/hawk/serpent? At the moment I am using Chimera/Kill/Serpent. I just find it hard to keep up on some fights with FULL arp setup do to all of the movement in ulduar. So ya, would it still be viable to leave my current glyphs intact, and arcane in my rotation?
Its hard to say when we can't see your spec or glyphs. With 528 passive ArP and Mjolnirs you should do better in an arcane-less build though. You free up 3 talent points from not using Improved Arcane Shot. Bear in mind using the Arcane-less build does not mean you never use Arcane, it just means you only use Arcane when you are moving and nothing else is off cd or if you are in a situation that boosts your magic damage. As to whether its viable, either setup would be considered viable, but this thread is about being optimal
As to stay on topic. Are people calculating Mjolnir Runestone based on a 45 second internal cooldown? I recently got mine, and tested it alongside my Greatness. The greatness seems to be very punctual on proccing again 46 seconds after it's use. The runestone on the other hand seems to be more random, and does not proc exactly 46 seconds after another of its procs. I've gone 60 seconds a few times without a proc. It seems more like the t8 4 set bonus, that's based on an actual % of the ranged attacks, and not an automatic proc every 46.
As to stay on topic. Are people calculating Mjolnir Runestone based on a 45 second internal cooldown? I recently got mine, and tested it alongside my Greatness. The greatness seems to be very punctual on proccing again 46 seconds after it's use. The runestone on the other hand seems to be more random, and does not proc exactly 46 seconds after another of its procs. I've gone 60 seconds a few times without a proc. It seems more like the t8 4 set bonus, that's based on an actual % of the ranged attacks, and not an automatic proc every 46.
Typically I see Greatness proc about every 45-50 seconds, Runestone every 45-55 seconds, and Precision Shots every 45-60 seconds.
They all have an internal cooldown of 45 seconds, so you'd have to think about it in terms of what could proc it after that time. You'll probably have Serpent Sting and Piercing Shots or Black Arrow + Explosive Shot (even possibly Mend Pet) all ticking on that 45th second when the internal cooldown finishes. Not to mention any Auto Shots or Steady Shot casts about to go though or in-flight. All of those could proc Greatness, only the shots (not DoTs) would proc Runestone, and only Steady Shot (which is the lowest shot of priority) which could proc Precision Shots.
06/29/09, 8:38 PM
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