3.1 Upcoming Changes - Page 19

Fendryl · 02/24/09, 2:13 PM

Kill Shot seems to generate a GCD now.

Effinhunter · 02/24/09, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Rokh

We'll have to test it more, but yeah it's certainly not the deep wounds we were expecting anyway. I imagine (just by random chance) those were from a steady shot crit, I mean you can do the math, but the higher your crit the less that talent is going to be worth actually since it doesn't stack, after a point. You want just enough crit so your "Chimera bleed" ticks for as long as possible, but not to much so you're overwriting it on the next shot.

Also, the new pet talent that increases AP given to the pet by the Hunter has to be bugged; It's taking my pets from around 1650ap to 3400ap. This is putting BM around 4k self-buffed DPS and Survival around 3.2k self-buffed DPS with Survival gems and Glyphs. Expect a nerf soon. Also, the Lock and Load nerf really hurts quite a bit, if you don't get a lucky proc from Black Arrow you're pretty well screwed for that 30 second window.

I did see a self-buffed crit of Explosive Shot for 3.8k with Black Arrow and everything running. Sniper Training would push that up over 4k, heh.

Anyway, tldr: Survival = Slightly nerfed, Marks = Same, BM = Buffed (but possibly bugged).

I'm having trouble seeing how all specs were not slightly buffed by these changes. It appears that Survival has a sustainable increase in dps of ~400 from the immolation ticks with glyph and Black Arrow and the refresh makes it permanent throughout the fight once launched. Further, as noted above, it may be possible to construct builds with both noxious sting and black arrow, allowing for 1.03 coefficient on dmg from noxious with another normalized 1.03 coefficient on dmg from Black arrow. This will allow for less need of people to go into the BM tree past the 1st tier to get a total of 2% total dmg with pet for 7 points, when 2-4 in IAotH is all that is required.

The Marks tree has another slight buff from the Glyph of Chimera Shot, which will reduce the cooldown and allow more Chimera Shots (not quite the 6 second cooldown of Explosive, but it's still an improvement). If you're focusing on the bleed only, you might miss the other major buff (since Chimera is the bread and butter of MM).

BM, even if capped at the 30% ap figure noted above from the 22% it was. If it is currently doing 60%, that is overly buffed, but even at 30%, this should make it very competitive again.

My question is...

Is this an indication that MM was not the good baseline GC and the devs previously thought it was, that it would need to be buffed? I think this is a good thing, and I would rather see more class buffs than nerfs for ANY class.

KraxisSingular · 02/24/09, 2:23 PM

Well Wild Hunt certainly is a good decision for the simple reason the poor pet scaling with gear gets alleviated somewhat. We want to get away from buffs being such a huge portion of BM damage, and more from gear.

I must say that overall I'm somewhat confused. Especially the Trap Throw, BA, ES and Immo thing. That and the shared cd between fire traps and BA. And then there is the Piercing Shots results... Some clarification on these matter would be nice. I really can't grasp why BA and fire traps need to share cd, especially if BA is a talent, and we don't have the option of keeping Immo up with ES. It's just clunky and quite counterintuitive.

Fukasa · 02/24/09, 2:33 PM

If I'm understanding the changes right, since BA has 15 sec duration, and a 30 sec CD, and because it procs LnL - will it be better to delay BA until the internal CD of LnL is up to fire the next one, or is the 6% damage buff it gives worth maximizing its uptime?

I guess to try to be more clear

0:00 - fire BA
0:15 - Last tick of BA procs LnL
0:30 - BA off CD - LnL still on internal CD
0:45 - LnL off of internal CD

If we fire BA again at 0:30, we maximize its uptime, but essentially reduce the probability that LnL will proc.
If we fire BA at 0:45, we give it the best chance of proccing LnL, but lose 6% damage modifier and the BA DOT for 15 seconds.

Also we have to take in to account that immo can proc LnL, so while firing it at 0:30 doesn't make it impossible for LnL to proc, it does reduce the raw number of chances that LnL can proc.

bobmarley753 · 02/24/09, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by Golemcrusher

As for survival rotation:

Immolation trap (Glyphed) 1.5s Hopefully be able to prepare beforehand for bosses that are moved.
ES(Glyphed)(immo refresh) 3.0s
AimS 4.5s
Serpent 6.0s
Steady(Glyphed) 7.5s
ES (Immo refresh 9.0s
Steady 10.5s
Steady 12.0s
Steady 13.5s
ES (Immo refresh) 15.0s
AimS 16.5s
Serpent 18.0s
Steady 19.5s
ES (Immo refresh) 21.0s
Steady 22.5s
Steady 24.0s
Steady 25.5s
ES (Immo refresh) 27.0s
AimS 28.5s
Serpent 30.0s
BA 31.5s
ES (Immo refresh) 33.0s

While this looks good on paper for single target stand and shoot fights, this will put us at a distinct disadvantage on fights with multiple targets (i.e. Sarth + drakes, Anub {cryptguards}, Faerlina {when killing adds for enrage}, Grobbulus {slimes}, Gluth {decimate AoE spamming}, 4H) AND fights which involve damage interruption (i.e. Maexxna {wrap & spray}, Grobulus {running away for injection}, KT {MC}, Malygos {ww}.

The common problem with every single one of those fights is that maintaining the perfect rotation might never be possible due to random damage interruptions or needing to switch targets. Yea, we might be able to continue rolling explosive shots on the main target via a focus macro while dpsing down an add, but try and explain to your raid leader why you're only putting less than half of your total damage on the current focus target.

The penalty for dropping your immolation debuff seems far too severe, possibly requiring up to a whole minute to lay a new trap + fire the next black arrow. We've never been a class that requires a lot of time to "ramp up" our damage after an interruption, and I hope we don't end up heading in that direction in 3.1.

Bovii · 02/24/09, 2:42 PM

Sin86 · 02/24/09, 2:46 PM

Here are my numbers on the PTR, while testing Wild Hunt : the new pet talent. I used this spec 53/14/04, of course I didn't take Great Stamina for my raptor.

Hunter AP : 4513 (1908+2605) | STA : 997 (130+867)
Pet 0/2 AP : 1716 (642+1074) | STA : 809 (361+448)
Pet 1/2 AP : 2664 (642+2022) | STA : 1009 (361+648)
Pet 2/2 AP : 3612 (642+2970) | STA : 1208 (361+847)

I hope it will help you to understand how it works.

Effinhunter · 02/24/09, 2:48 PM

Originally Posted by Fukasa

If I'm understanding the changes right, since BA has 15 sec duration, and a 30 sec CD, and because it procs LnL - will it be better to delay BA until the internal CD of LnL is up to fire the next one, or is the 6% damage buff it gives worth maximizing its uptime?

I guess to try to be more clear

0:00 - fire BA
0:15 - Last tick of BA procs LnL
0:30 - BA off CD - LnL still on internal CD
0:45 - LnL off of internal CD

If we fire BA again at 0:30, we maximize its uptime, but essentially reduce the probability that LnL will proc.
If we fire BA at 0:45, we give it the best chance of proccing LnL, but lose 6% damage modifier and the BA DOT for 15 seconds.

Also we have to take in to account that immo can proc LnL, so while firing it at 0:30 doesn't make it impossible for LnL to proc, it does reduce the raw number of chances that LnL can proc.

Perhaps I'm an optimist, but the way I'm expecting this to work is that BA and IT will be overlayed for 15s out of every 30s, so you are getting 20% chance to proc for 15s out of every 30s, and 10% chance (from IT) during the other 15s, once you have IT rolling from ES, and you finally get to use your BA (after the initial 30s cooldown). This is due to having 5 + 5 = 10 possible procs for LnL during the BA-IT period and only 5 possible procs for LNL during the IT only period.

This is just my guess, but if it works this way, it will be a buff when not using some explicit freezing trap gimmick (like the maggots on Patchwerk). Although I understand the need to put BA and IT on the same cooldown, I do not believe they will be exclusive in their effects. I guess we'll see. Again, I'm an optimist in this respect.

smackz · 02/24/09, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by Golemcrusher

I believe with this rotaion you will get the best flow of shots and most damage due to having the immolation trap effect up for 100% of the fight then using BA whenever your trap CD is up for the rest of the fight for the extra 6% damage and extra ticks for LnL procs. This rotation does not include any LnL procs.

I use Immo trap first because as I understand it does about 300 dps which is better than 6% damage until you hit 5k DPS after that the BA buff will do more damage but I still think having Immo effect up will increase DPS for longer fights.

The rotation sounds quite good, but after the first 30 seconds and the available Black Arrow, the chance to procc Lock n Load is doubled (10% constant Immo Trap + 10% BA for 15 sec.).
If Blizzard is going to change T.N.T back as intended, and Immo Trap will be refreshed on ES this could be a huge DPS increase.

2 more Dot's (BA + Immo Trap)
+ 6% increased DMG for 15 sec while BA is active
+ increased chance to procc LNL
+ no cooldown on LNL (according to PTR tooltip)

At first sight, it seems to be a little bit overpowered, isn't it?

KraxisSingular · 02/24/09, 2:55 PM

If we assume that BA and fire traps are intended to lock each other out, then LnL procs appear to beocme highly uncommon, even with no internal CD, with one it becomes very poor indeed.

Why is that? Well with BA and Immo on the same cd, and apparently no refreshing immo DoT with ES, then we are facing a 15 sec DoT on a 30 sec cd. That means whatever can proc LnL only has a 50% uptime at most. So every 30 seconds we have a 6% chance to proc LnL 5 times. Call my cynical and all, but that's poor beyond reason. And the worst part, we can't even spec out of LnL for something else that gives better DPS.
The current Serpent Sting procs work off 10% per tick, and if we remove trap generated procs then it isn't all that common, to decrease that even further seems wrong.

Something isn't right, and it is hard to determine what's wrong at this time. But Blizzard did say they had some interesting trap changes in the workings, and I doubt that the LnL change is what was meant. The removed change of ES resfreshing Immo + trap toss seemed like a good candidate for that. I suppose they just couldn't get it work? Also the combined 6% of BA and Immo each for 50% of the time seems to match the current Serpent Sting a lot better.

Fukasa · 02/24/09, 3:04 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

If we assume that BA and fire traps are intended to lock each other out, then LnL procs appear to beocme highly uncommon, even with no internal CD, with one it becomes very poor indeed.

Why is that? Well with BA and Immo on the same cd, and apparently no refreshing immo DoT with ES, then we are facing a 15 sec DoT on a 30 sec cd. That means whatever can proc LnL only has a 50% uptime at most. So every 30 seconds we have a 6% chance to proc LnL 5 times. Call my cynical and all, but that's poor beyond reason. And the worst part, we can't even spec out of LnL for something else that gives better DPS.
The current Serpent Sting procs work off 10% per tick, and if we remove trap generated procs then it isn't all that common, to decrease that even further seems wrong.

Something isn't right, and it is hard to determine what's wrong at this time. But Blizzard did say they had some interesting trap changes in the workings, and I doubt that the LnL change is what was meant. The removed change of ES resfreshing Immo + trap toss seemed like a good candidate for that. I suppose they just couldn't get it work? Also the combined 6% of BA and Immo each for 50% of the time seems to match the current Serpent Sting a lot better.

I've seen that mentioned a few places that ES will in fact NOT refresh Immo, bummer.

Assuming that the developers target DPS is something everyone is comfortable with, this might be a good thing. As Bobmarley mentioned, having to constantly worry about refreshing your trap on a target while doing _stuff_ would be rather annoying, especially with the shared CD with black arrow, and the relatively long CD as it is.

Anyone on PTR see any hints of the ammo changes? I know that nothing has been updated yet but any new NPCs by the hunter trainers or the likes?

Skhope · 02/24/09, 3:06 PM

GC commented on Trap Launcher likely not being implemented in 3.1.

I know this is a little confusing, so I will try and clear it up.

1) Trap Launcher is a very cool idea and something we would love to do. However, it requires a lot of tech and may end up beyond the scope of what we can do for patch 3.1. We don't want to give hunters a buggy, half-baked ability. If you are going on the PTR to test Ulduar or just mess around with numbers, I wouldn't worry about this ability, at least for now.

2) Black Arrow is on the trap cooldown timer, and we assume largely for PvE. Black Arrow is your ability to proc things normally caused by traps (like LnL) in PvE situations when using a trap is a pain or the target is immune.

3) Think of Lock and Load triggering from traps (esp. Frost Trap) as a PvP mechanic. Think of Lock and Load triggering from periodic ticks (esp. Black Arrow) as a PvE mechanic. In PvE, you may want to use traps on trash or group pulls however. In PvP, nothing is stopping you from using Black Arrow if it works for you.

Shandara · 02/24/09, 3:19 PM

Originally Posted by Sin86

Here are my numbers on the PTR, while testing Wild Hunt : the new pet talent. I used this spec 53/14/04, of course I didn't take Great Stamina for my raptor.

Hunter AP : 4513 (1908+2605) | STA : 997 (130+867)
Pet 0/2 AP : 1716 (642+1074) | STA : 809 (361+448)
Pet 1/2 AP : 2664 (642+2022) | STA : 1009 (361+648)
Pet 2/2 AP : 3612 (642+2970) | STA : 1208 (361+847)

I hope it will help you to understand how it works.

This suggests the talent adds a flat % to the current scaling.

The numbers are strange though. If you look at 1/2 and 2/2 Wild Hunt affecting AP the difference between them (948) should be 20% of the hunter's AP. 5*948 = 4740 though, while you have 4513 AP. What was your melee AP?

Esoth · 02/24/09, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Well Wild Hunt certainly is a good decision for the simple reason the poor pet scaling with gear gets alleviated somewhat. We want to get away from buffs being such a huge portion of BM damage, and more from gear.

I must say that overall I'm somewhat confused. Especially the Trap Throw, BA, ES and Immo thing. That and the shared cd between fire traps and BA. And then there is the Piercing Shots results... Some clarification on these matter would be nice. I really can't grasp why BA and fire traps need to share cd, especially if BA is a talent, and we don't have the option of keeping Immo up with ES. It's just clunky and quite counterintuitive.

I have to agree, but as Mako said, not all intended changes are up yet. I can see them adding trap launching or the TNT refresh of explosive later in the PTR. I still don't understand why BA would be considered related to fire traps enough to warrant needing a shared cooldown, but then again kill shot being back on the GCD doesn't make sense either. It's quite possible that neither of these are intended.

Basically, it's just way too early to draw any conclusions because we have no idea what is intended yet.

KraxisSingular · 02/24/09, 4:04 PM

Well the quote certainly does show that Immo isn't supposed to be used I think. Makes it rather the most useless skill we actually buff in the tree. But that hardly changes anything from now where we use Frost Trap.
What I do find interesting in the wrong direction is that BA is supposed to proc LnL, ok that fair in itself. But why such a poor procrate? 5 chances at 6% per 30 seconds... How many LnL procs do they intend us to have? And if this is the intended procnumber, then where are our options of speccing out of it? It obviously is pretty poor overall. Reductions in talentvalue isn't always bad, but if you get no option of going elsewhere it will feel like a strong hit to those that spec into that tree. Nobody likes to pick talents that give very little value, simply because there is no other option.