3.1 Upcoming Changes - Page 21

Sin86 · 02/24/09, 9:42 PM

I run some test on training dummies to test survival spec new tools, here was my spec 02/14/55

My shots priority was Black Arrow > Explosive Shot > Multi-Shot > Serpent Sting > Steady Shot. I engaged the dummy following this list, and had no Lock and Load proc. After 30 seconds, when Black Arrow went up, I popped all my cooldowns then fired Black Arrow and burst during the 15 seconds within all my damage on the target is up by 6%. I got a Lock and Load proc on the last tick of Black Arrow, used my charges etc... When my cooldown went up, I used Black Arrow again but still no more proc.

First, I though there was still the internal cooldown on Lock and Load preventing it to proc during the next Black Arrow dot, if it first proc at the end of the first Black Arrow dot. So I run more test, waiting for Lock and Load to proc of Black Arrow, then trapping the dummy as soon as my cooldown went up while monitoring a possible internal cooldown. But it proced immediatly, so I came to the conclusion Lock and Load is no longer affected by an internal cooldown.

In conclusion, Black Arrow seems to be really good while used with cooldown to burst even more, but the 6% proc rate on dot ticks looks like it's pretty low considering 10 ticks per minute. Plus you can't predict with accuracy when you'll have a Lock and Load proc, because you can't use a trap which have a 100% trigger rate due to shared cooldown.

Here are the maths, evaluating the proc chance.
1 - [(chance that the effect will not proc on a given tick) ^ (number of ticks in 1 Black Arrow)]
1 - 0.94^5 = 1 - (.94 * .94 * .94 * .94 * .94) = 1- ~0.734 = 0.266
So, there is essentially a 26.6% chance that Lock and Load will proc at least once sometime during any given application of Black Arrow.

Let's calculate what the odds of this proc-ing are at least once in 10 ticks (2 Black Arrows in 1 minute)
1 - 0.94^10 = 1 - ~0.538 = 0.452 = 45.2% chance of proc-ing in a minute's time of application.

Thanks to Morkeliph on wowhead, whose calculations helped me to do the maths for Black Arrow.

Catalept · 02/24/09, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Sin86

I run some test on training dummies to test survival spec new tools, here was my spec

...

Which trap did you use to proc LnL? I assume it wasn't Frost, as raid bosses (and therefore presumably dummies) now eat them... but it never hurts to be sure

TBH, if the internal cooldown is gone, that's something of a step backwards... with Trap Mastery so accessible, and BA-based procs so infrequent, we'll now be dropping Immolation to trigger LnL and be back to a proverbial square one.

IMO, the logical solution is to leave LnL's cooldown at 30 seconds, and simply make BA proc LnL when it falls off (but not if it's dispelled). This would keep the procs at a good frequency in PvE, while not significantly impacting PvP, as double-proc would still be impossible, and the dreaded ranged procs would happen only after 15 seconds, giving people plenty of time to dispel, or prepare themselves in whatever way PvPers do

Steelfleece · 02/24/09, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Catalept

TBH, if the internal cooldown is gone, that's something of a step backwards... with Trap Mastery so accessible, and BA-based procs so infrequent, we'll now be dropping Immolation to trigger LnL and be back to a proverbial square one.

The problem with that little theory is that Immolation Trap no longer triggers LnL on trapping, but on the periodic damage, at the same rate as Black Arrow.

Only Frost Trap, Freezing Trap, and Freezing Arrow have the 100% chance to proc on trapping now.

Rezdan · 02/24/09, 10:20 PM

Don't forget that curently BA shares a cooldown with traps, so you can't really be using both.

KraxisSingular · 02/24/09, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Catalept

Which trap did you use to proc LnL? I assume it wasn't Frost, as raid bosses (and therefore presumably dummies) now eat them... but it never hurts to be sure

Well the lesser dummies are equal to normal mobs, and while I haven't tested the ice traps on dummies it should be able to proc on those.

But, eventhough it is a pretty weak and limited test, the maths does back it up. The procrate needs a boost somewhere. Not because we absolutely need loads of LnL procs, but because LnL is practically enforced on us, and we already can't use Trap Mastery, and Survivalist really doesn't add anything worth 5 points, which makes 11 TPs 'wasted' within four tiers, with no realistic options out of that. That's horribly poor, and I doubt any other tree can match that kind of poorness (heh, did I invent a word there?). Meanwhile we have some bloat in the top, much like BM, so there we actually want to spend more points.

Obviously the trap mechanics that got pulled were very much planned for... If we add a continual Immo Trap ticking then we have 15 seconds of 6% LnL proc chance, then 15 seconds of 2x6% LnL proc chance. I would make that out to be quite similar to the old Serpent 10% proc chance overall. Of course the position of Trap Mastery and the increase to three points point in that direction too. Perma Immo would be too good if it was just one point like now, but without it is beyond overpriced, which it is even now at one point. Even TNT seems to linger under the effect. Immo is still mentioned, yet how it is proposed now we will never use it (when Black Arrow is more damage and boosts other damage I can't see when we would EVER use Immo Trap). But it would fit with the perma Immo, making the talent go from yet-another-ok-filler to downright awesome.

So I have some confidence that either we will get Immolation Trap refresh mechanics, or our tree will get changed around a lot again. As it is now, it is a big mess, worse than ever.

Catalept · 02/24/09, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

The problem with that little theory is that Immolation Trap no longer triggers LnL on trapping, but on the periodic damage, at the same rate as Black Arrow.

Only Frost Trap, Freezing Trap, and Freezing Arrow have the 100% chance to proc on trapping now.

... arg. Yes, you're right. Too much time reading qq on the WoW forums is turning my brain into wholegrain muesli.

So with BA hogging our trap cooldowns and bosses eating our LnL proccing traps, that leaves Trap Dancing in the ground, chopped into pieces and covered in flesh-eating wereworms. Can't say I'll miss it.

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

But, eventhough it is a pretty weak and limited test, the maths does back it up. The procrate needs a boost somewhere. Not because we absolutely need loads of LnL procs, but because LnL is practically enforced on us, and we already can't use Trap Mastery, and Survivalist really doesn't add anything worth 5 points, which makes 11 TPs 'wasted' within four tiers, with no realistic options out of that.

... wasted points are hardly new to the SV tree, though :p Hell, with Sniper Training not caring about range, PvE specs waste 3 out of their first 10 points regardless. Still, it's clear that Blizzard is doing some tinkering... at least they're doing on the PTR this time

Steelfleece · 02/24/09, 11:50 PM

Wild Hunt is really, really powerful. I can already tell that my pet is going to have more health than I do raid-buffed (18.8k vs. 16.6k currently, no Greater Stamina, only 1 point in Endurance Training), and I wouldn't be surprised if some pets ended up with more AP than their masters once the buffs start piling on. This pet is definitely more powerful than the pre-nerf BM pets. I would not be surprised at all if the numbers on Wild Hunt were toned down significantly before the patch goes live.

KraxisSingular · 02/25/09, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

Wild Hunt is really, really powerful. I can already tell that my pet is going to have more health than I do raid-buffed (18.8k vs. 16.6k currently, no Greater Stamina, only 1 point in Endurance Training), and I wouldn't be surprised if some pets ended up with more AP than their masters once the buffs start piling on. This pet is definitely more powerful than the pre-nerf BM pets. I would not be surprised at all if the numbers on Wild Hunt were toned down significantly before the patch goes live.

I believe the issue is that the 40% extra AP/Stamina is based on the Hunter rather than the petscaling. Meaning 40% more scaling off 22% AP = 30.8% AP scaling. Similar for the Stamina scaling (which is what, 30%?). Right now you get 62% of Hunter AP or about so. For BM that's beyond insane given how much more value 1 AP has for a pet than a Hunter. So yes, this is bound to get fixed.

Catalept, yes Survival has for a very long time been afflicted with plenty crappy fillers and wasted points, but this goes beyond it. This adds more wasted points to the previous mould, and not like Survivalist where what it says it does makes sense, no this time we see buffs to things that makes absolutely no sense. Like the Immo Trap buff in TNT. Obviously it is bound to change or Survival will blatantly announce 'Incomplete' whenever someone looks at it.
If traps make it back somehow, then Trap Mastery becomes valuable to an extent, at the very least more than Hawk Eye in the vast majority of cases. Similarly LnL would likely seems less underwhelming and TNT would be back to being fully operational. That removes all but Survivalist from the surprisingly bad talents. And even it would then be within reasonable limits because of the synergy with Hunter vs Wild (well around 50 AP raidbuffed from this synergy is hardly impressive) and the fact that 'free' Stamina is never bad. A poor talent but with enough "but it gives you X", as long as it isn't surrounded by even poorer talents.

All this makes me believe that Survival is very long from finished, and that the Trap Launcher idea might not be scrapped entirely for 3.1. And I do believe they have the entire ammochange thing in the back of their mind here too. Scrapping it and Trap Launcher almost immediately after announcing both would not endear them a lot to many Hunters.

[EDIT] A couple of things they said they would look at (but not neccesarily change/fix) are Focused Aim not giving Hit to pet, and the pet only scaling Hit with full percentages. Anyone noticed anything yet?

zápdos · 02/25/09, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

I believe the issue is that the 40% extra AP/Stamina is based on the Hunter rather than the petscaling. Meaning 40% more scaling off 22% AP = 30.8% AP scaling. Similar for the Stamina scaling (which is what, 30%?). Right now you get 62% of Hunter AP or about so. For BM that's beyond insane given how much more value 1 AP has for a pet than a Hunter. So yes, this is bound to get fixed.

Catalept, yes Survival has for a very long time been afflicted with plenty crappy fillers and wasted points, but this goes beyond it. This adds more wasted points to the previous mould, and not like Survivalist where what it says it does makes sense, no this time we see buffs to things that makes absolutely no sense. Like the Immo Trap buff in TNT. Obviously it is bound to change or Survival will blatantly announce 'Incomplete' whenever someone looks at it.
If traps make it back somehow, then Trap Mastery becomes valuable to an extent, at the very least more than Hawk Eye in the vast majority of cases. Similarly LnL would likely seems less underwhelming and TNT would be back to being fully operational. That removes all but Survivalist from the surprisingly bad talents. And even it would then be within reasonable limits because of the synergy with Hunter vs Wild (well around 50 AP raidbuffed from this synergy is hardly impressive) and the fact that 'free' Stamina is never bad. A poor talent but with enough "but it gives you X", as long as it isn't surrounded by even poorer talents.

All this makes me believe that Survival is very long from finished, and that the Trap Launcher idea might not be scrapped entirely for 3.1. And I do believe they have the entire ammochange thing in the back of their mind here too. Scrapping it and Trap Launcher almost immediately after announcing both would not endear them a lot to many Hunters.

[EDIT] A couple of things they said they would look at (but not neccesarily change/fix) are Focused Aim not giving Hit to pet, and the pet only scaling Hit with full percentages. Anyone noticed anything yet?

Mmmm, personally im finding that wild hunt is really looking nice. To the extent that AoTD is proving to be better than AoTB without buffs. I'm sure once buffed AoTB would by far outweigh AoTD, but the extra ap without buffs proves just how much this will increase BM's dps. As of yet, i've only tried sv a few times because i wanted to try out my spirit beast properly - but im finding that BM and SV are producing roughly even numbers (with bm being the inferior - probably due to the fact im not gemmed AP at the moment). Looking at the other classes i think they might have the numbers about right - even if not globaly, they certainly seem to have found a way to keep the three trees even with each other. Wild quiver for one thing gives an extra 40dps per talent now from what i've gathered also. But i've not spent much time in MM since im crashing each respec ><

Thorkas · 02/25/09, 3:48 AM

Originally Posted by Esoth

..., but then again kill shot being back on the GCD doesn't make sense either.

It does make sense actually. It means you cannot simply macro it in with every shot in your arsenal and completely forget about it even existing.

silents47 · 02/25/09, 4:17 AM

Originally Posted by Thorkas

It does make sense actually. It means you cannot simply macro it in with every shot in your arsenal and completely forget about it even existing.

To be honest, is that such an issue? Most (I haven't actually counted, so let's go with at least "many") classes have what basically amounts to a passive Kill Shot; what's the real issue with hunters having the same thing?

I'll be fair, though; until real rotations and top DPS situations are figured out with 3.1, yelling about the GCD on KS isn't going to mean much of anything,

(Then again, we're hunters! When has logic ever stopped us from proclaiming the end of our class?)

EDIT: Edited for using the word "though" enough to cause mental anguish.

Bellin · 02/25/09, 4:25 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

I believe the issue is that the 40% extra AP/Stamina is based on the Hunter rather than the petscaling. Meaning 40% more scaling off 22% AP = 30.8% AP scaling. Similar for the Stamina scaling (which is what, 30%?). Right now you get 62% of Hunter AP or about so. For BM that's beyond insane given how much more value 1 AP has for a pet than a Hunter. So yes, this is bound to get fixed.

Looking at what Sin86 posted on previous page, stamina contribution went up from 45% (448/997) to 85% (847/997) so there is linear 40% increase in contribution from both stamina and AP.

Hunter   AP : 4513 (1908+2605) | STA : 997 (130+867)
Pet 0/2   AP : 1716 (642+1074) | STA : 809 (361+448)
Pet 1/2   AP : 2664 (642+2022) | STA : 1009 (361+648)
Pet 2/2   AP : 3612 (642+2970) | STA : 1208 (361+847)

This is certainly significant boost to BM, along side Shark Attack, and if they won't be rolling immo traps in 3.1 I expect BM to be top dps spec. Don't see MM coming close to other 2 even with Chimera glyph, unless piercing shots get different form (read deep wound mechanism).

Shandara · 02/25/09, 4:32 AM

To conclude my post on the previous page, I've finally found out why pet AP displayed is erroneous.

After trying each of my items in order and separately I noticed 1 discrepancy:
Whenever I gained the t7 2-piece bonus my AP would increase more than it had to. After trying it out at various AP levels I tried my assumption: the 5% damage increase also increases AP by 5%.

This 5% extra AP applied at the end of the AP calculation matched the in-game amount perfectly. Strange but true.

EDIT:
This also cleared up the strange AP gap involving Wild Hunt's AP scaling bonus.

Nooska · 02/25/09, 5:46 AM

I'd like to comment on the Cooldown on Call stabled Pet
(Dear god, I really hope this won't sound like a whine, its definately not intended as such)

Can anyone see any practical use of CSP in regards to dualspec (GC commented that we wouldget this new ability in connection with dualspec and exotic pets specifically) if you are bringing an exotic pet as your main pet.
Specifically, as I see it dualsepc for a BM/Exotic hunter = raidspec/solo spec with no chance of going to a different spec in raid - even though it costs the same 1k gold as any other class/spec.

Well I guess on the upside that either saves me some gold, or gives me a really good solo spec :-)

30 minute CD - seems to be only to save the time of your pug group so they don't have to wait for the 'huntard' to grab the right pet - and if you hop on a flight to dun neffelem with no stablemaster with your raidpet instead of your grind / solo pet.

I can see how it can be an issue in arena for instance, since you afaik can get out of combat pretty easily (and it would not be balanced to be able to switch pets there), but with no CD (at least from what we gathered) on the dualspec it seems very tame for an ability introduced specifically to make hunters able to switch pets when they switch specs.

To avoid arena use they could put it on a CD thats just too long for arena, and introduce talented or glyphed CD reducers - from my understanding (I don't arena) any CD thats below the arena requirements due to talents or glyphs still isn't allowed.

For this sort of ability to work, with the stated goal of "giving hunters a way to switch pets in connection with dualspecs", a cooldown on par with other "once per encounter abilities" would be a lot better. I won't compare it to battle res or soulstone or such (though battle res comes close) - I would rather compare it to Bloodlust/Heroism. !0 minuted sated debuff kinda gives the times they are expecting between bosses away - CD on CSP should really match this time (otherwise the port/summon game becomes the main switcher 'again') - and we would have no need for the portable lexicons.

Lumbendil · 02/25/09, 7:44 AM

Originally Posted by Nooska

Can anyone see any practical use of CSP in regards to dualspec (GC commented that we wouldget this new ability in connection with dualspec and exotic pets specifically) if you are bringing an exotic pet as your main pet.
Specifically, as I see it dualsepc for a BM/Exotic hunter = raidspec/solo spec with no chance of going to a different spec in raid - even though it costs the same 1k gold as any other class/spec.

Maybe you'll use the 2nd spec for bosses that aren't pet-friendly? I am willing to pay 1k gold for being able on bosses wich don't allow much usage of the pet to swtich to surv / MM :P