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02/26/09, 7:36 AM
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#376
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by stoagie
Pvp based question...
How will non-Survival Hunters proc LnL if serpent sting no longer affects it? I heard that the Trap Launcher will not be released so I can't get my head around how BM and MM hunters can effectively use this without relying on traps?
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You answered your own question. Without Black Arrow, the only way to proc LnL is with traps. PVP hunters shouldn't have many problems still; place a trap somewhere a melee needs to go (around the healer, etc) and it'll still trigger it. Still, it's a bit more of a fuss now.
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02/26/09, 7:45 AM
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#377
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Glass Joe
Orc Hunter
Kult der Verdammten (EU)
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Originally Posted by Fierra
You answered your own question. Without Black Arrow, the only way to proc LnL is with traps. PVP hunters shouldn't have many problems still; place a trap somewhere a melee needs to go (around the healer, etc) and it'll still trigger it. Still, it's a bit more of a fuss now.
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I don't see why it would be more of a fuzz now. I even think it's less. Whoever hoped for a Serpent Sting proc to get LnL up should better have all CDs (and I mean all CDs besides traps, because obviously this Hunter doesn't want to have an "on demand" burst with the 100% proc chance off of a Frost Trap) ready and kite untill it happend...
tl;dr: PvP wise nothing changed for LnL. Lay your Frost Trap (it should be there almost by default, exept you have to take somebody out of the fight) and pump in those Arcane Shots, fellow Marksmen and Beastmasters.
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02/26/09, 8:08 AM
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#378
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Piston Honda
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So... maybe Blizzard won't notice that each point in Wild Hunt is worth 1000 DPS as BM >.>
Best spreadsheet numbers that I came up with were:
BM: 8420.88
MM: 6890.14
SV: 7372.72
Now this was just some quick stuff in almost exactly the same BiS gear set (expect AP gems/crusher for BM).
Only using 19 pet talent points I came up with 7394.43 with BM by leaving it at 1/2 Wild Hunt. Probably closer to what the devs were aiming to balance it at.
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02/26/09, 8:37 AM
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#379
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Glass Joe
Draenei Hunter
Tichondrius
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Did a pug naxx25 (only patchwerk) as BM...
Used a T-rex (exotic pet), with pet strength food, cookie-cutter talents to grab Wild Hunt and Shark attack. He has over 5k attack power raid buffed

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02/26/09, 9:09 AM
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#380
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Piston Honda
Blood Elf Paladin
The Sha'tar (EU)
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Originally Posted by Effinhunter
That being said, I'm positive the proc rate for the previous LnL mechanism was less than the 10% promised per tick. Without trap dancing, I had never seen more than 1 proc per minute (using a ceiling (time), so that a 3.5 minute fight would still possibly proc 4) without trap dancing.
(...)
So, in conclusion, if the 10% proc chance were actually implemented correctly, you may be right about the current BA with 10% chance would match the proc rate per minute of the current SS LnL proc mechanism, but I disagree that the current % chance is correctly implemented as 10%, and you are currently comparing 10% chance with 5-6% chance that seems to actually be implemented. What I think people are worried about is that the system seems to currently exhibit a 5-6% chance per proc, and this same legacy system will be inherited by the BA system, resulting in an average proc every 2 minutes.
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Not sure I understand your point. With the 30s internal cooldown, 3-4 procs for a 3-4min fight sounds entirely reasonable since we just concluded that it should average 1 proc per minute?
If you're looking at number of procs in relation to number of serpent sting ticks over a fight, of course it won't be one proc per 10 ticks because of the cooldown. Having a 1-to-20 relation between number of LnL procs and number of serpent sting ticks (assuming 100% serpent uptime) is entirely expected since about half of them won't be able to proc LnL due to the cooldown. If the proc rate was 5% (still with 30s cooldown) you'd be more likely to average one proc per 90s instead. With 5% chance per tick and 30s cooldown, four procs in a 3min fight would be pretty rare, but I have several logs showing that.
It is of course an entirely different question how many procs per minute would be *interesting*. Considering you get two per minute with trapping, that seems reasonable to me, but we don't get that on live without trapdancing. Increasing either the proc rate or the BA uptime makes sense, but it would of course have to be balanced against other things. If they do bring in rolling immolation traps, we're in an entirely different situation, but from GC's post about BA, that doesn't sound too likely.
They haven't said anything about removing the LnL cooldown, but Sin86's testing suggested it's gone, and with BA linked to trap cooldowns, there's no real need for it either. That said, I'll stop talking about this until my character finishes copying (/sigh) so I can test stuff myself.
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02/26/09, 9:54 AM
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#381
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Glass Joe
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Some new notes on pets from MMO-Champion:
* Thunderstomp (Gorilla) has been removed as a pet skill and replaced by Pummel - Pummel the target, interrupting spellcasting and preventing any spell in that school from being cast for 4 sec. (20 Focus, 5 yd range, Instant, 10 sec cooldown)
* Thunderstomp is now a pet talent available to any Tenacity pet. Now your bears, crocs or ESPECIALLY CRABS can join in the AE tanking fun.
* Savage Rend (Raptor) now temporarily boost the raptor's damage by 10% for 30 seconds.
* Furious Howl (Wolf) now only affects the wolf and its master, duration increased from 10 to 20 seconds.
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With the change to Furious Howl, I have to wonder if they will allow it to stack with other AP buffs. Is this something someone on the PTR could check? Might make the Wolf a more viable raid pet.
Last edited by Cotar : 02/26/09 at 10:34 AM.
Reason: This has already been answered.
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02/26/09, 10:10 AM
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#382
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Hunter
Aerie Peak
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Quote from previous page from Ghostcrawler says that it will stack with AP buffs.
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02/26/09, 11:10 AM
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#384
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Bluesfear
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It's going in the tenacity as its own spell, which is awesome. You can have any tenecity pet tanking for you when grinding or leveling. So getting a crab, turtle or gorilla(for pvp spell lock now) will be best idea at lower lvls...
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02/26/09, 11:44 AM
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#385
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by H0mez
It's going in the tenacity as its own spell, which is awesome. You can have any tenecity pet tanking for you when grinding or leveling. So getting a crab, turtle or gorilla(for pvp spell lock now) will be best idea at lower lvls...
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Kinda... It now requires lvl 44 (it's placed where intervene was).
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02/26/09, 1:53 PM
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#386
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Piston Honda
Blood Elf Priest
Alonsus (EU)
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Originally Posted by Arkad
tl;dr: PvP wise nothing changed for LnL. Lay your Frost Trap (it should be there almost by default, exept you have to take somebody out of the fight) and pump in those Arcane Shots, fellow Marksmen and Beastmasters.
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Except warriors running over your frost trap with spell reflect on. Oops, nothing happens. It was bad enough when that only worked on freezing traps...
I think it was a change Blizz made for PvE purposes without thinking about the PvP consequences.
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02/26/09, 2:20 PM
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#387
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Glass Joe
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http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunter=&version=9626
The above confirms (sorry if I missed this, but I think I'm up to date) that Immolation Trap will not be renewed by Explosive Shot.
Still waiting on my character copy, but from the current spreadsheet results, it looks like BM is back on top.
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02/26/09, 2:32 PM
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#388
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Bald Bull
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BM is on top theoretically, but I don't think it can stay on top. I suspect people may take issue to a damage breakdown like: 3k dps hunter, 4.5k dps pet. The ridiculous AP scaling from the new talent will probably be toned down.
Without that, I think Survival still wins, since I was spreadsheeting a value for it about 500 dps behind BM.
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02/26/09, 2:35 PM
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#389
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Glass Joe
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Now, I've only been on PTR a little due to "ERROR 132, ERROR 132, ERROR 132, etc." and the World Server being down a good chunk of the time, but I had a question maybe some of you could answer. Now, last night when I was a little tired I saw that Black Arrow caused traps to go on CD, but does it work in the opposite manner?
Assuming it doesn't, would trap-dancing be completely unviable now? Front-loaded burst seems nice, but I haven't seen if anyone has run the numbers through of having a guaranteed LnL proc vs 6% dmg for 15 sec and no guaranteed LnL. Guess some of that relies on probability.
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02/26/09, 2:38 PM
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#390
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Sollod
Now, I've only been on PTR a little due to "ERROR 132, ERROR 132, ERROR 132, etc." and the World Server being down a good chunk of the time, but I had a question maybe some of you could answer. Now, last night when I was a little tired I saw that Black Arrow caused traps to go on CD, but does it work in the opposite manner?
Assuming it doesn't, would trap-dancing be completely unviable now? Front-loaded burst seems nice, but I haven't seen if anyone has run the numbers through of having a guaranteed LnL proc vs 6% dmg for 15 sec and no guaranteed LnL. Guess some of that relies on probability.
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Keep in mind; they've made the only LnL proccing traps not work on bosses now, unless the boss has adds (Gluth, etc.). BA will be the only way to proc LnL now in many fights.
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