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Old 02/26/09, 7:36 AM   #376
Fierra
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Fenris
Originally Posted by stoagie View Post
Pvp based question...

How will non-Survival Hunters proc LnL if serpent sting no longer affects it? I heard that the Trap Launcher will not be released so I can't get my head around how BM and MM hunters can effectively use this without relying on traps?
You answered your own question. Without Black Arrow, the only way to proc LnL is with traps. PVP hunters shouldn't have many problems still; place a trap somewhere a melee needs to go (around the healer, etc) and it'll still trigger it. Still, it's a bit more of a fuss now.

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Old 02/26/09, 7:45 AM   #377
Arkad
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Kult der Verdammten (EU)
Originally Posted by Fierra View Post
You answered your own question. Without Black Arrow, the only way to proc LnL is with traps. PVP hunters shouldn't have many problems still; place a trap somewhere a melee needs to go (around the healer, etc) and it'll still trigger it. Still, it's a bit more of a fuss now.
I don't see why it would be more of a fuzz now. I even think it's less. Whoever hoped for a Serpent Sting proc to get LnL up should better have all CDs (and I mean all CDs besides traps, because obviously this Hunter doesn't want to have an "on demand" burst with the 100% proc chance off of a Frost Trap) ready and kite untill it happend...

tl;dr: PvP wise nothing changed for LnL. Lay your Frost Trap (it should be there almost by default, exept you have to take somebody out of the fight) and pump in those Arcane Shots, fellow Marksmen and Beastmasters.

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Old 02/26/09, 8:08 AM   #378
Lilbitters
Piston Honda
 
Troll Hunter
 
Thrall
So... maybe Blizzard won't notice that each point in Wild Hunt is worth 1000 DPS as BM >.>

Best spreadsheet numbers that I came up with were:
BM: 8420.88
MM: 6890.14
SV: 7372.72

Now this was just some quick stuff in almost exactly the same BiS gear set (expect AP gems/crusher for BM).
Only using 19 pet talent points I came up with 7394.43 with BM by leaving it at 1/2 Wild Hunt. Probably closer to what the devs were aiming to balance it at.

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Old 02/26/09, 8:37 AM   #379
Norest
Glass Joe
 
Norest's Avatar
 
Draenei Hunter
 
Tichondrius
Did a pug naxx25 (only patchwerk) as BM...

Used a T-rex (exotic pet), with pet strength food, cookie-cutter talents to grab Wild Hunt and Shark attack. He has over 5k attack power raid buffed


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Old 02/26/09, 9:09 AM   #380
sjogren
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
The Sha'tar (EU)
Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
That being said, I'm positive the proc rate for the previous LnL mechanism was less than the 10% promised per tick. Without trap dancing, I had never seen more than 1 proc per minute (using a ceiling (time), so that a 3.5 minute fight would still possibly proc 4) without trap dancing.

(...)

So, in conclusion, if the 10% proc chance were actually implemented correctly, you may be right about the current BA with 10% chance would match the proc rate per minute of the current SS LnL proc mechanism, but I disagree that the current % chance is correctly implemented as 10%, and you are currently comparing 10% chance with 5-6% chance that seems to actually be implemented. What I think people are worried about is that the system seems to currently exhibit a 5-6% chance per proc, and this same legacy system will be inherited by the BA system, resulting in an average proc every 2 minutes.
Not sure I understand your point. With the 30s internal cooldown, 3-4 procs for a 3-4min fight sounds entirely reasonable since we just concluded that it should average 1 proc per minute?

If you're looking at number of procs in relation to number of serpent sting ticks over a fight, of course it won't be one proc per 10 ticks because of the cooldown. Having a 1-to-20 relation between number of LnL procs and number of serpent sting ticks (assuming 100% serpent uptime) is entirely expected since about half of them won't be able to proc LnL due to the cooldown. If the proc rate was 5% (still with 30s cooldown) you'd be more likely to average one proc per 90s instead. With 5% chance per tick and 30s cooldown, four procs in a 3min fight would be pretty rare, but I have several logs showing that.

It is of course an entirely different question how many procs per minute would be *interesting*. Considering you get two per minute with trapping, that seems reasonable to me, but we don't get that on live without trapdancing. Increasing either the proc rate or the BA uptime makes sense, but it would of course have to be balanced against other things. If they do bring in rolling immolation traps, we're in an entirely different situation, but from GC's post about BA, that doesn't sound too likely.

They haven't said anything about removing the LnL cooldown, but Sin86's testing suggested it's gone, and with BA linked to trap cooldowns, there's no real need for it either. That said, I'll stop talking about this until my character finishes copying (/sigh) so I can test stuff myself.

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Old 02/26/09, 9:54 AM   #381
Cotar
Glass Joe
 
Cotar's Avatar
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Silver Hand
Some new notes on pets from MMO-Champion:
* Thunderstomp (Gorilla) has been removed as a pet skill and replaced by Pummel - Pummel the target, interrupting spellcasting and preventing any spell in that school from being cast for 4 sec. (20 Focus, 5 yd range, Instant, 10 sec cooldown)
* Thunderstomp is now a pet talent available to any Tenacity pet. Now your bears, crocs or ESPECIALLY CRABS can join in the AE tanking fun.
* Savage Rend (Raptor) now temporarily boost the raptor's damage by 10% for 30 seconds.
* Furious Howl (Wolf) now only affects the wolf and its master, duration increased from 10 to 20 seconds.
With the change to Furious Howl, I have to wonder if they will allow it to stack with other AP buffs. Is this something someone on the PTR could check? Might make the Wolf a more viable raid pet.

Last edited by Cotar : 02/26/09 at 10:34 AM. Reason: This has already been answered.

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Old 02/26/09, 10:10 AM   #382
Bozorgmehr
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Aerie Peak
Quote from previous page from Ghostcrawler says that it will stack with AP buffs.

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Old 02/26/09, 10:38 AM   #383
Bluesfear
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Kel'Thuzad
Originally Posted by Bozorgmehr View Post
Quote from previous page from Ghostcrawler says that it will stack with AP buffs.
source here: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Thunderstomp removed!!!

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Old 02/26/09, 11:10 AM   #384
H0mez
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Nazjatar
Originally Posted by Bluesfear View Post
It's going in the tenacity as its own spell, which is awesome. You can have any tenecity pet tanking for you when grinding or leveling. So getting a crab, turtle or gorilla(for pvp spell lock now) will be best idea at lower lvls...

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Old 02/26/09, 11:44 AM   #385
Argg0
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Hunter
 
Warsong
Originally Posted by H0mez View Post
It's going in the tenacity as its own spell, which is awesome. You can have any tenecity pet tanking for you when grinding or leveling. So getting a crab, turtle or gorilla(for pvp spell lock now) will be best idea at lower lvls...
Kinda... It now requires lvl 44 (it's placed where intervene was).

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Old 02/26/09, 1:53 PM   #386
Ketari
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Priest
 
Alonsus (EU)
Originally Posted by Arkad View Post
tl;dr: PvP wise nothing changed for LnL. Lay your Frost Trap (it should be there almost by default, exept you have to take somebody out of the fight) and pump in those Arcane Shots, fellow Marksmen and Beastmasters.
Except warriors running over your frost trap with spell reflect on. Oops, nothing happens. It was bad enough when that only worked on freezing traps...

I think it was a change Blizz made for PvE purposes without thinking about the PvP consequences.

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Old 02/26/09, 2:20 PM   #387
Hanthtron
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Anvilmar
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunter=&version=9626

The above confirms (sorry if I missed this, but I think I'm up to date) that Immolation Trap will not be renewed by Explosive Shot.

Still waiting on my character copy, but from the current spreadsheet results, it looks like BM is back on top.

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Old 02/26/09, 2:32 PM   #388
alienangel
Bald Bull
 
alienangel's Avatar
 
Draenei Hunter
 
Eredar
BM is on top theoretically, but I don't think it can stay on top. I suspect people may take issue to a damage breakdown like: 3k dps hunter, 4.5k dps pet. The ridiculous AP scaling from the new talent will probably be toned down.

Without that, I think Survival still wins, since I was spreadsheeting a value for it about 500 dps behind BM.

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Old 02/26/09, 2:35 PM   #389
Sollod
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Kel'Thuzad
Now, I've only been on PTR a little due to "ERROR 132, ERROR 132, ERROR 132, etc." and the World Server being down a good chunk of the time, but I had a question maybe some of you could answer. Now, last night when I was a little tired I saw that Black Arrow caused traps to go on CD, but does it work in the opposite manner?

Assuming it doesn't, would trap-dancing be completely unviable now? Front-loaded burst seems nice, but I haven't seen if anyone has run the numbers through of having a guaranteed LnL proc vs 6% dmg for 15 sec and no guaranteed LnL. Guess some of that relies on probability.

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Old 02/26/09, 2:38 PM   #390
Fierra
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Fenris
Originally Posted by Sollod View Post
Now, I've only been on PTR a little due to "ERROR 132, ERROR 132, ERROR 132, etc." and the World Server being down a good chunk of the time, but I had a question maybe some of you could answer. Now, last night when I was a little tired I saw that Black Arrow caused traps to go on CD, but does it work in the opposite manner?

Assuming it doesn't, would trap-dancing be completely unviable now? Front-loaded burst seems nice, but I haven't seen if anyone has run the numbers through of having a guaranteed LnL proc vs 6% dmg for 15 sec and no guaranteed LnL. Guess some of that relies on probability.
Keep in mind; they've made the only LnL proccing traps not work on bosses now, unless the boss has adds (Gluth, etc.). BA will be the only way to proc LnL now in many fights.

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