3.1 Upcoming Changes - Page 30

Sylvand · 02/28/09, 4:49 PM

Originally Posted by Effinhunter

This assumes no crits, right? This seems a little low. Looking at some of my WWS, my max crit from explosive seems to hover around 5100 damage. That would would be roughly 1/3 your projected damage for what the 2 ESes connected to a LnL proc would even do in total.

Even so, it seems a trifling nerf. I would say your figure is more optimistic than pessimistic, actually

As ezMooks pointed out this should account for crits. It's taken directly from the calculations page on the spreadsheet. Note that effective RAP is listed as 8878 and 69% crit rate on ES.

I think the damage per LnL proc could be considered optimistic, as the actual gain per proc should be lower. However this means we are overestimating the nerf to LnL, and I consider it pessimistic in that sense.

Right now I'm noticing that the spreadsheet also has a LnL calculation section, which lists the effect as having a frequency of 62s and a net dps gain of 304 dps. At a glance it seems it may be calculating a replacement of 2 shots with 2 shots (i.e. 6 ticks). On top of that it weaving shots between LnL charges in the rotation test although I'm not sure that's used to generate the numbers for it. Maybe I will have to take this to the spreadsheet thread.

Effinhunter · 02/28/09, 6:29 PM

Originally Posted by Sylvand

As ezMooks pointed out this should account for crits. It's taken directly from the calculations page on the spreadsheet. Note that effective RAP is listed as 8878 and 69% crit rate on ES.

I think the damage per LnL proc could be considered optimistic, as the actual gain per proc should be lower. However this means we are overestimating the nerf to LnL, and I consider it pessimistic in that sense.

Right now I'm noticing that the spreadsheet also has a LnL calculation section, which lists the effect as having a frequency of 62s and a net dps gain of 304 dps. At a glance it seems it may be calculating a replacement of 2 shots with 2 shots (i.e. 6 ticks). On top of that it weaving shots between LnL charges in the rotation test although I'm not sure that's used to generate the numbers for it. Maybe I will have to take this to the spreadsheet thread.

I'm looking at my calculations page right now, and my total RAP is 7.291k (which is just above what we were talking about). My crit chance for explosive is 63% in the spreadsheet (slightly above), and my total adjusted Damage Per Tick (K110) is 3551. Total modified damage (K113) is 10655.

I agree that my calculations were overestimating though, especially with including the initial explosive (which will be available regardless of LnL proc).

Using your idea with 7.3k ap and 63% crit, and hopefully your same calculations (guessing on this).

2 extra explosives * 10000 (rounded down of Modified dmg - K113 in Shandara's Calculations) = 20000 dmg per LnL
Replaced dmg base = 8629 (taken from your post). 20000 - 8629 = 11371
Dmg lost from 4 lost procs in 10 minutes = 11371 * 4 procs = 45484
Dps lost from LnL changes in 3.1 = 45484 dmg / 600 s = 75.81 dps

So, yeah, I was way over on the estimate. Still, I'm a bit confused on how my my modified tick dmg is 3.5k, while the numbers used above are assuming 2.7k modified dmg. When you were talking about ranged ap being 8k+, were you talking about the number in K91 of Shandara's? If so, that is the modified value due to the ability itself. I was talking about 7k ap on the hunter tooltip (B22 on Calculations).

BTW, none of these are taking into account the new nerfs to explosive discussed above with the GC quotes.

Sylvand · 02/28/09, 7:00 PM

The ES nerfs make the LnL proc by itself less impactful, true. However at a certain point as they nerf ES you have to ask when is it no longer worthwhile to take LnL talent? With LnL devalued with the lowered proc chance, it makes LnL even less attractive as a talent. Maybe it's still worth taking, I'm not going to worry about it while BM are still miles ahead.

For my values, I got them from Middi's sheet which is Shandara's modified for best-in-slot stuff (and a particular set of raid buffs). The RAP value I got was from E10 I think, which takes into effect fury of the five flights, hunter's mark and expose weakness, which won't show up on your equipment sheet as you're walking around town.

KraxisSingular · 02/28/09, 8:40 PM

Originally Posted by Sylvand

The ES nerfs make the LnL proc by itself less impactful, true. However at a certain point as they nerf ES you have to ask when is it no longer worthwhile to take LnL talent? With LnL devalued with the lowered proc chance, it makes LnL even less attractive as a talent.

It doesn't matter if it is not terribly attractive, the other options are buffing a trap we don't use or some utility we hardely ever use either. As long as LnL actually provides a DPS boost, it will be worth taking because the options don't allow any realistica replacement.

Maybe this is the time to point that out. I believe the Warriors and Death Knights have gotten some positive comments towards changing the talent setup because the selection they had to take was extraordinarily weak (Blood DKs forced to take the +hit spell talent).

Perforate · 02/28/09, 9:49 PM

Im gemmed for Sv, Glyphed for Sv, but on test with the changes to BM I am 3100 dps on the boss dummy with no self buffs? Anyone else seeing this? At the moment its far ahead of SV. And SV has yet another ES nerf looming as confirmed by GC recently.

I mean.....we know that BM isn't going to go live like it is now on test. The AP talent is likely to be nerfed down some, but it would have to be completely eviscerated to allow BM to drop below SV numbers seemingly after ES takes its 4th nerf. Couple this with a clearly more complex dps rotation and although I love Sv in its current form, Im not going to be able to justify playing it if they keep going this path. This all seems so deja vu. I would really rather not play BM again.

Does anyone know if the 40% of Wild Hunt is being calculated incorrectly or something? Is there anything to look forward to being lowered with BM's new power talents?

Effinhunter · 03/01/09, 5:10 AM

Explosive Shot: Base damage lowered by 10%. Attack power scaling reduced by 12.5%.

So, based on the GC quote, my estimate for dps loss from the new explosive shot nerf is the following.

Current base dmg is 428-496. 10% dmg reduction will be 429 * .9 to 496 * .9 = 386.1 to 446.4
Attack power scaling is .14. .14 * 87.5 = 0.1225

Avg base dmg will now be (386.1 + 446.4) / 2 = 416.25
Assuming 7k ap on tooltip, new avg non-crit dmg per tick will be:

(7000 * .1225 + 416.25) = 1273.75

Assuming 63% crit rate, total adjustment comes to 222.8% on my sheet (K109 in calculations). New modified tick amount is 1273.75 * 2.228% = 2837.915 resulting in total modified dmg (K113) of 2837.915 * 3 = 8513.745 (old was 10655).

Without factoring in LnL procs, we should be getting 10 explosive shots per minute (60s). This should result in the following (again, appreciate check on math).

Old (explosive dmg / time):
10655 * 10 cds = 106550 dmg / 60s = 1775.83 dps

New (explosive dmg / time):
8513.745 * 10 cds = 85137.45 dmg / 60s = 1418.96 dps

1775.83 - 1418.96 = 356.87 dps lost with explosive shot changes (without LnL procs factored in). Using Sylvand's breakdown of LnL changes, the following dps loss will be on top of the loss noted earlier (75.81).

Explosive shot loss for LnL procs (old modified - new modified)
(10655 - 8514) * 2 extra explosives = 2141 * 2 = 4282 dmg * 4 procs per 10 minutes lost = 17128 / 600s = 28.55 dps lost

Consequently, total losses from BA LnL changes and Explosive shot changes comes to:
356.87 (explosive) + 75.81 (Lnl) + 28.55 (explosive + LnL) = 461.23 dps

sevla · 03/01/09, 7:45 AM

Piercing Shots testing (01March)

The Piercing Shot bleed ticks once per second during 8 seconds, dealing 30% of the damage of the critical shot:

11:58'29.250	Atsitab Steady Shot hits Heroic Training Dummy #2 for 2394 Physical. (Critical)
11:58'30.141	Heroic Training Dummy #2 is afflicted by Piercing Shots.
11:58'31.063	Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 90 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
11:58'32.047	Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 90 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
11:58'33.000	Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 89 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
11:58'33.938	Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 89 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
11:58'34.953	Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 90 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
11:58'35.922	Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 90 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
11:58'36.969	Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 90 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
11:58'38.094	Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 90 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.

The Serpent part of Chimera Shot does not proc Piercing Shots:

12:01'05.250	Atsitab Chimera Shot hits Heroic Training Dummy #2 for 2103 Nature.
12:01'06.250	Atsitab Chimera Shot - Serpent hits Heroic Training Dummy #2 for 3826 Nature. (Critical)
12:01'07.266	Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 459 Nature damage from Atsitab Serpent Sting. (115 Resisted)
12:01'10.078	Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 517 Nature damage from Atsitab Serpent Sting. (57 Resisted)

Every time a Chimera, Aimed or Steady Shot crits during the 8 seconds of the Piercing Shots debuff, the debuff is refreshed and damage of the last shot to crit overwrites the previous shot damage, even if it's lower:

12:07'47.313 Atsitab Chimera Shot hits Heroic Training Dummy #2 for 6249 Nature. (Critical)
12:07'48.078 Heroic Training Dummy #2 is afflicted by Piercing Shots.
12:07'49.031 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 235 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'49.031 Atsitab Aimed Shot hits Heroic Training Dummy #2 for 4158 Physical. (Critical)
12:07'49.563 Heroic Training Dummy #2's Piercing Shots is refreshed.
12:07'50.672 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 156 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'51.578 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 156 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'52.531 Atsitab Steady Shot hits Heroic Training Dummy #2 for 963 Physical.
12:07'52.703 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 156 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'53.625 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 156 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'54.438 Atsitab Steady Shot hits Heroic Training Dummy #2 for 866 Physical.
12:07'54.594 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 156 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'55.734 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 156 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'56.344 Atsitab Steady Shot hits Heroic Training Dummy #2 for 2246 Physical. (Critical)
12:07'56.688 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 156 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'56.891 Heroic Training Dummy #2's Piercing Shots is refreshed.
12:07'57.859 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 85 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.

Bellin · 03/02/09, 5:50 AM

Originally Posted by Effinhunter

So, based on the GC quote, my estimate for dps loss from the new explosive shot nerf is the following.

Current base dmg is 428-496. 10% dmg reduction will be 429 * .9 to 496 * .9 = 386.1 to 446.4
Attack power scaling is .14. .14 * 87.5 = 0.1225

Avg base dmg will now be (386.1 + 446.4) / 2 = 416.25
Assuming 7k ap on tooltip, new avg non-crit dmg per tick will be:

(7000 * .1225 + 416.25) = 1273.75

Assuming 63% crit rate, total adjustment comes to 222.8% on my sheet (K109 in calculations). New modified tick amount is 1273.75 * 2.228% = 2837.915 resulting in total modified dmg (K113) of 2837.915 * 3 = 8513.745 (old was 10655).

Without factoring in LnL procs, we should be getting 10 explosive shots per minute (60s). This should result in the following (again, appreciate check on math).

Old (explosive dmg / time):
10655 * 10 cds = 106550 dmg / 60s = 1775.83 dps

New (explosive dmg / time):
8513.745 * 10 cds = 85137.45 dmg / 60s = 1418.96 dps

1775.83 - 1418.96 = 356.87 dps lost with explosive shot changes (without LnL procs factored in). Using Sylvand's breakdown of LnL changes, the following dps loss will be on top of the loss noted earlier (75.81).

Explosive shot loss for LnL procs (old modified - new modified)
(10655 - 8514) * 2 extra explosives = 2141 * 2 = 4282 dmg * 4 procs per 10 minutes lost = 17128 / 600s = 28.55 dps lost

Consequently, total losses from BA LnL changes and Explosive shot changes comes to:
356.87 (explosive) + 75.81 (Lnl) + 28.55 (explosive + LnL) = 461.23 dps

Even if it is nerfed more from 3.0.9. state it is:
428(496) / 1.1 = 389(451) - base dmg
14% / 1.125 = 12.44% - ap scaling

Blizz uses multiplying not addition in these calculation.
So everything taken together would lead us to some 400dps nerf there.

But looking at the wording and current ES tooltip it indicates that they are only announcing nerf that was already applied on live, which is tuning down ES scaling from 16% to 14% (16% / 1.125 = 14.22%)

Effinhunter · 03/02/09, 6:15 AM

Originally Posted by Bellin

Even if it is nerfed more from 3.0.9. state it is:
428(496) / 1.1 = 389(451) - base dmg
14% / 1.125 = 12.44% - ap scaling

Blizz uses multiplying not addition in these calculation.
So everything taken together would lead us to some 400dps nerf there.

But looking at the wording and current ES tooltip it indicates that they are only announcing nerf that was already applied on live, which is tuning down ES scaling from 16% to 14% (16% / 1.125 = 14.22%)

There's confusion about what the %s they are quoting mean. We'll have to wait until the next PTR patch to guage what the true effects are.

As for your last paragraph, I would read back through the rest of this thread.

Originally Posted by GC

Yes, we did nerf the damage of Explosive Shot a little more. After many of the changes to locks, DKs, warriors and the rest, we felt SV hunters were too high. MM may still be a little too low. BM seems on target at the moment, but we had a few bugs in new pet abilities especially that was making it hard to get accurate numbers.

I'm not sure what you mean about Survival compexity. Are you talking about the shots themselves or the organization of the tree? I think some players are still thinking they are supposed to trap dance in PvE.

Original source:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> 3.1 Hunter Patch Notes Confusion

If you read the OP's questions to GC, it specifically asks whether or not this is above and beyond the stealth nerf. GC seems to indicate that it is an above and beyond nerf.

BTW, just as an additional confirmation, the BA cooldown is affected by Resourcefulness, going from 30s to 24s. This allows for 4 more proc chances per minute, bringing total possibles to the following (per minute):

.06 .06 .06 .06 .06 0 0 0 .06 .06 .06 .06 .06 0 0 0 .06 .06 .06 .06

P (A U B) = .06 * 14 = 0.84 LnL ppm

Don't want to get your hopes up, but if we do get the immolation trap refresh, this will be an overlaying:

P (A U B) = .06 * 20 = 1.20 LnL ppm + .84 LnL ppm = 2.04 ppm (total with BA and Immo refresh proc chances)

Again, the latter would assume there will remain no LnL cooldown, and we get the proposed immolation refresh from explosive. I seriously doubt 2 ppm would go live, though. If they started to see this, we would certainly get the cooldown back. Still, even if they do revert to the cooldown, we would be back to 1 ppm.

Bellin · 03/02/09, 7:12 AM

Look Effin a few days ago ES scaling with AP was at 16% on PTR, and if they are nerfing it by 12.5% it means its scaling is going down to 14% which is current form on live servers. GC usually speaks of nerfs concerning current versions on PTR and rarely considers what is state of certain skill on live. So if you consider all that I find it is more likely they are only officially announcing already implemented nerf.

Effinhunter · 03/02/09, 7:21 AM

Originally Posted by Bellin

Look Effin a few days ago ES scaling with AP was at 16% on PTR, and if they are nerfing it by 12.5% it means its scaling is going down to 14% which is current form on live servers. He usually speaks of nerfs concerning current versions on PTR and rarely considers what is state of certain skill on live. So if you consider all that I find it is more likely they are only officially announcing already implemented nerf.

Well, hopefully I stand corrected on this. I believe others confirmed that the previous hotfix accomplished that same nerf on Live, and I remember GC noting a couple of PTRs ago, that they tend to start from old versions on the PTR instead of the live version (which would mean that the old PTR was likely ended with 16%).

Edit: Shandara confirmed the 16% ap this earlier in the thread. I must have missed her editing the post. I think Bellin is right. http://elitistjerks.com/1118952-post289.html

Edit: Just as a note, I wasn't stating any kind of outrage over the possibility that ES might be nerfed. I was simply calculating what the effects would be in dps terms if this was an additional nerf.

Endage · 03/02/09, 8:13 AM

Originally Posted by sevla

Piercing Shots testing (01March)

Every time a Chimera, Aimed or Steady Shot crits during the 8 seconds of the Piercing Shots debuff, the debuff is refreshed and damage of the last shot to crit overwrites the previous shot damage, even if it's lower:

12:07'47.313 Atsitab Chimera Shot hits Heroic Training Dummy #2 for 6249 Nature. (Critical)
12:07'48.078 Heroic Training Dummy #2 is afflicted by Piercing Shots.
12:07'49.031 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 235 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'49.031 Atsitab Aimed Shot hits Heroic Training Dummy #2 for 4158 Physical. (Critical)
12:07'49.563 Heroic Training Dummy #2's Piercing Shots is refreshed.
12:07'50.672 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 156 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'51.578 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 156 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'52.531 Atsitab Steady Shot hits Heroic Training Dummy #2 for 963 Physical.
12:07'52.703 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 156 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'53.625 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 156 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'54.438 Atsitab Steady Shot hits Heroic Training Dummy #2 for 866 Physical.
12:07'54.594 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 156 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'55.734 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 156 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'56.344 Atsitab Steady Shot hits Heroic Training Dummy #2 for 2246 Physical. (Critical)
12:07'56.688 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 156 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.
12:07'56.891 Heroic Training Dummy #2's Piercing Shots is refreshed.
12:07'57.859 Heroic Training Dummy #2 suffers 85 Physical damage from Atsitab Piercing Shots.

Hmmm, I wonder why Piercing Shots isn't working like Deep Wounds or Ignite. While it's still better than the current Piercing Shots, this isn't what I've been hoping for.
This means you want to use Arcane Shot after you crit with Aimed Shot or Chimera Shot to lower the chance of the bleed debuff getting overwritten by a weak Steady Shot crit.

Sylvand · 03/02/09, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by Effinhunter

BTW, just as an additional confirmation, the BA cooldown is affected by Resourcefulness, going from 30s to 24s. This allows for 4 more proc chances per minute, bringing total possibles to the following (per minute):

.06 .06 .06 .06 .06 0 0 0 .06 .06 .06 .06 .06 0 0 0 .06 .06 .06 .06

P (A U B) = .06 * 14 = 0.84 LnL ppm

Don't want to get your hopes up, but if we do get the immolation trap refresh, this will be an overlaying:

P (A U B) = .06 * 20 = 1.20 LnL ppm + .84 LnL ppm = 2.04 ppm (total with BA and Immo refresh proc chances)

Again, the latter would assume there will remain no LnL cooldown, and we get the proposed immolation refresh from explosive. I seriously doubt 2 ppm would go live, though. If they started to see this, we would certainly get the cooldown back. Still, even if they do revert to the cooldown, we would be back to 1 ppm.

This is the wrong result for BA. 24 second cooldown means we get 2.5 BA per minute instead of just 2. 2.5 * 5 * 0.06 = 0.75 PPM.

Bozorgmehr · 03/02/09, 3:21 PM

Clarification about Wild Hunt from Ghostcrawler:

Wild Hunt is being changed to 10/20% extra AP from the master. There was a bug where the talent was just applying the hunter's AP to the pet twice, which is too generous.

If you have 6000 attack power, your pet probably gains 1320 attack power from you. With 2 ranks of this talent, it should gain 1580 attack power instead. Your pet's attack power will be higher than this by a few hundred from other sources.

Source: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> 3.1 Hunter Patch Notes Confusion

It seems significantly weaker than what we've been seeing so far, but that was to be expected I guess.

Breakerone · 03/02/09, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Bozorgmehr

Clarification about Wild Hunt from Ghostcrawler:

Source: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> 3.1 Hunter Patch Notes Confusion

It seems significantly weaker than what we've been seeing so far, but that was to be expected I guess.

In other words its an additional 2.2%/4.4% of the hunter instead of the 20%/40% it was right now? Well, almost the same...