3.1 Upcoming Changes - Page 37

Sartuk · 03/06/09, 5:48 PM

Edit - Please ignore, accidentally double posted

Lerastes · 03/06/09, 5:49 PM

MM gets a lot more damage out of filler shots than Survival does. Survival has Explosive Shot, Serpent, Steady, Auto, and Aimed. MM has Chimera, Serpent, Steady, Auto, Aimed, Arcane, and Wild Quiver procs, not to mention better pet DPS with BM talents. Comparing Chimera directly to Explosive is not a fair comparison at all. Explosive Shot is 40%~ of Survival's DPS, Chimera is 18%~ for MM.

KraxisSingular · 03/06/09, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by Gorah

So basicly what you say is "SV has crappy fillers and don't comment on it, because it's the way to be"? I don't see anything wrong in making a simple evaluation of a talent, by comparing it to another one you can choose, without making a crucial design mistake in your build. You seem to have a problem in this and you're invoking trees equality as an argument. It's not about equality, but about choice you have. Both those talents are an option and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter that much if they are in one tree or another - it's about return per talent point invested. I've said that I'm not impressed as IAotH has better dps per point potential and you've countered me by saing that it irrelevant because it's in the different tree. This would be a valid point if we were talking about some deeper talents, but we're not. Both are easily accessible for SV hunter and there is no extra effort to take them, which puts them in my eyes as a perfect candidates for comparision of power.

Because it is nothing new, because it isn't something that hasn't been said endlessly before. This time we get an actual upgrade a filler, and the only result is "well i isn't as good as X". That's the thing. If you want to complain about poor fillers, complain about Survivalist.

Aestil · 03/06/09, 5:59 PM

Surival hunters in my guild [are better geared than me by a margin] have their pets do more dps than me. I'm assuming because of the stam -> AP talent that SV gets.

In any case, it has not been my expierence that my MM pet is > than SV pet.

But I'm happy to be wrong.

At the moment SV is much much better than MM. So comparing two abilities that define the spec's is certainly fair in my book.

Btw, at no point did I say that CS should = ES, but rather that the gap is too large between the 2 spec's in damage, and one area that the difference appears to stem from is the gap in CS to ES damage.

Even if you add in wild quiver dps to the CS equation, MM is far behind.

This patch will fix some of that though.

woody-shuhalo · 03/06/09, 6:17 PM

When asked about unannounced changed to Armor Pen, GC posted this: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Thoughts on PTR Warrior Changes. Constructive

Q u o t e:
Seems somewhat lackluster, it's been agreed upon by most of the Warriors that Armor Penetration in its current state is pretty bad and down there in the pits with haste. Is there some sort of change to ArP that hasn't been announced yet?

It is in this build I believe. If not, then it is:

Armor Penetration Rating: All classes now receive 25% more benefit from Armor Penetration Rating.

Perforate · 03/06/09, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by woody-shuhalo

When asked about unannounced changed to Armor Pen, GC posted this: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Thoughts on PTR Warrior Changes. Constructive

Q u o t e:
Seems somewhat lackluster, it's been agreed upon by most of the Warriors that Armor Penetration in its current state is pretty bad and down there in the pits with haste. Is there some sort of change to ArP that hasn't been announced yet?

It is in this build I believe. If not, then it is:

Armor Penetration Rating: All classes now receive 25% more benefit from Armor Penetration Rating.

This excites me tremendously.

alienangel · 03/06/09, 8:31 PM

Hm. With that change, wouldn't a warrior in battle stance and mace spec have a passive 50% armor pen total?

10% from stance (giving up zerker stance and whirlwind to do it though)
20% from sunders
5% from FF/CoR
15% from talent.

I'm surprised they'd still find it a poor stat, although I suppose having to spec far enough into arms to get mace spec and then trying to DPS in battlestance without whirlwind would hurt DPS a lot until arms changes...

Still, assuming all the effects are additive, 50% passive + 45% from a Grim Toll proc + 5% from gear would be 100%, and back to the joys of being a hunter in sunwell.

KraxisSingular · 03/06/09, 9:07 PM

They don't stack.

ArP is different in that you can never really reduce armor completely.
Lets say a boss has 10k armor. FF and Sunder = 24%, so now it is 7600.

And then you have those 25% from talents and stance, and then it is 5700. Now the big question is if Gim Troll is applied alongside talents or after. If it is alongside, then the total reduction is pretty heavy, down to 2280, which I doubt is the true situation. If it gets applied after talents then it is 3705, but passive ArP is applied alongside Grim Troll obviously.

There are quite a few talents that gets applied before gear, like the manareduction ones, if not then sometimes relics could produce nearly free healing spells among Shamans and Pallies.

alienangel · 03/06/09, 10:59 PM

Which don't stack? They've already said the reduction from their new Shattering Throw "stacks" with sunders, and I can't imagine the new Battle Stance bonus wouldn't stack with sunders too. The question is which parts of all of this stack to remove from total armor, and which stack to remove from remaining armor.

And yes I believe you can reduce armor completely, you just need to reach 100% armor penetration from gear to do so ^_^, at which point debuffs don't matter at all, you're always reducing any target to 0 armor. With the upcoming changes, grim toll should be worth 56% ArP on proc on it's own, so with some stacked ArP gear you're looking at around 60-65% charactersheet penetration when procced?

So the potential amounts reduced are:

(10k x 0.76) x 0.4 x 0.75 = 2280 	(worst possible: debuffs, gear and talents are all separately applied)
(10k x 0.76) x 0.05       = 380 	(debuffs applied first, gear+talents applied after)
(10k x 0.0)								= 0 		(best possible - everything is summed together and applied at once

milkabull · 03/06/09, 11:43 PM

I know this is just theory crafting, but with the high cost of the Greatness card is it still going to be best in slot moving forward? Will it be spec specific?

I already have fury of five flights, grim toll, bandits insignia, and a nobles deck ready to turn in next week.

Texicles · 03/07/09, 2:15 AM

Originally Posted by milkabull

I know this is just theory crafting, but with the high cost of the Greatness card is it still going to be best in slot moving forward? Will it be spec specific?

I already have fury of five flights, grim toll, bandits insignia, and a nobles deck ready to turn in next week.

With the value of Agi for SV and without any knowledge of the future of WotLK loot, I'd say it's very possible. Let's not forget how good the DST was for how long.

Originally Posted by Gorah

I'm trying to make my mind on TNT and Trap Mastery affecting Black Arrow - sure, it's a good thing, but assuming 7k RAP and max rank of BA we have 7000*0.1+2765=3465*1.3=4505 thats ~1040 damage gain, with 24sec CD on BA gives 43dps increase for 3 talent points (assuming Resourcefulness being taken). IAotH comes out more beneficial.

An aspect of the IAotH calculations you're using deals with an assumption about the amount of haste on T8+ gear. It's not unreasonable to think that gear in Ulduar will have more haste than present loot tables and that, as SV/MM edges closer and closer to soft-capped with BiS gear, IAotH might fall under the value of another talent like Trap Mastery.

However, if IAotH is still a better talent than Trap Mastery, even at soft-capped, then ignore the previous paragraph. I'll leave the math to you.

Steelfleece · 03/07/09, 3:25 AM

* Rapid Recuperation now gives you 4% of your mana every 3 sec while under the effect of Rapid Fire. (Old - Reduces the mana and focus cost of all shots and abilities by you and your pet by 60%). Effect on Rapid Killing remains unchanged.

I should note that somehow the version that's actually on the test server is restoring 19% of your mana every 3 seconds. I have no idea how they managed to do that, but it certainly makes things...interesting.

Mikari · 03/07/09, 5:11 AM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

I should note that somehow the version that's actually on the test server is restoring 19% of your mana every 3 seconds. I have no idea how they managed to do that, but it certainly makes things...interesting.

It's a bug

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [BUG] Improved Hawk affecting Rapid Recup

On another note despite them fixing Wild Hunt to scale the 40% AP properly it's been nerfed to 10/20% anyway, might be better to get the point in Shark Attack over Wild Hunt now for non BM I guess.

Ramsess · 03/07/09, 6:50 AM

Hi, after reading new patch notes I´m wondering that they nerfed ES but stated ES ticks are periodic damage.

(Explosive Shot: Base damage lowered by 10%. Attack power scaling reduced by 12.5%. The periodic damage from this ability no longer triggers Judgement of Wisdom and Judgement of Light.)

So new Trap Mastery have efect on ES (via Immolation, Explosive Trap and Black Arrow - Increases the periodic damage done by 30%) ? has anyone confirm that ?

n4kun · 03/07/09, 7:31 AM

No, you missed something.
The talent says that for those traps, their periodic damage will be increased by 30%, and not increasing your periodic damage on a target affected by those traps

The talent remains the same as for now.