Piercing Shots – this talent has been changed. Your Aimed, Steady and Chimera Shots cause the target to bleed for 10/20/30% of damage dealt for 8 sec.
the question I have with this talent is, since in a normal rotation people cast Aim SS and CS more than once during the 8 sec time, will the bleeding effect stack? or will each shot had its own bleeding effect (thus costing 3 debuff slot)? if the bleeding stack it can be seriously OP, but if it doesn't.....the talent then will be pretty underwhelming as no one would wait 8 sec before casting Aim/SS/CS
I'm guessing here, but I think it will work like a reverse buff.
For example, if you use Aimed shot at the beginning of your rotation, then steady shot bleed will just not go up until Aimed Shot bleed finishes. However if you use Chimera shot and deal more damage then aimed shot, it will overwrite the aimed shot bleed. (I believe this is how ignite works for mages)
All that I care about right now is that I can go back to not caring about ammo again. That is the best news I've heard from Blizzard in a long time.
QFT, I end up using my thor for 90% of the stuff we do now just so I can be as stingy as possible with my mammoth cutters. Heres hoping the new way they do ammo is something for than just extra dps, having an extra proc or different kind of damage would really make things interesting.
As for thoughts about piercing shots, I'm personally thinking its gonna work like deep wounds does. Seems like that would be the easiest way for them to implement something like that.
Well, up until 3.0.8, my thoridal was still steadyshotting ridiculously harder than the spreadsheet predicted (harder than Final Voyage using 67.5 DPS arrows), so I was using it on pretty much everything - I couldn't work out what the formula for it was though, so never got more than anecdotal comparisons (my PW dps using Final Voyage was lower than it'd been using Thori'dal the previous week for instance).
Post 3.0.8 steady shot is so nerfed that I just use it on trash, and use Final Voyage on bosses - still fairly convenient since I can just equip an old 24 slot quiver for raids, click a saronite arrow maker before a boss to pop out a couple of stacks of ammo as needed, then switch back to a regular backpack once the raid is over.
I'm actually wondering about the mana reg changes für healers and mana-dd classes:
None of the announced changes will hit the hunters. Especially the ridiculous mana reg from judgement of wisdom seems to be missed by blizzard. I fear maybe blizzard will just deactivate it for hunters like windfury totem after stumbling about that problem.
Numbers to illustrate it ( from some patchwerk kills over the last weeks)
Mana regeneration from JoW:
Mages...............4900-6400 mana
Moonkins...........5300-6200 mana
Shadow Priests...2100-4200 mana
Warlocks...........5200-5800 mana
hunters.............24000-33000 mana
the numbers are resulting due two issues with jow:
I'm actually wondering about the mana reg changes für healers and mana-dd classes:
None of the announced changes will hit the hunters. Especially the ridiculous mana reg from judgement of wisdom seems to be missed by blizzard. I fear maybe blizzard will just deactivate it for hunters like windfury totem after stumbling about that problem.
Numbers to illustrate it ( from some patchwerk kills over the last weeks)
Mana regeneration from JoW:
Mages...............4900-6400 mana
Moonkins...........5300-6200 mana
Shadow Priests...2100-4200 mana
Warlocks...........5200-5800 mana
hunters.............24000-33000 mana
the numbers are resulting due two issues with jow:
Wow thats quite large. Did they change it back? I remember it used to be 100% to restore 2% mana but they patched it to 50% chance to proc 1% mana.
I do agree it's quite insane right now. I haven't dropped below 90% mana on a boss fight since 3.0.8. I think it's pretty much the same thing for enhancement shamans(not that they over went OOM). I can't see them completely taking it away from us though. I could see them making it like a 15% proc off ranged attacks.
web stats log with 5 palas in raid @flickwerk, only jow listed
19:39'56.500 * gains 100 Mana from PaladinA
19:39'56.500 * gains 101 Mana from PaladinB
19:39'56.890 * gains 101 Mana from PaladinA
19:39'56.890 * gains 101 Mana from PaladinB
19:39'58.156 * gains 101 Mana from PaladinA
19:39'58.468 * gains 101 Mana from PaladinA
19:39'58.468 * gains 101 Mana from PaladinB
19:40'00.875 * gains 101 Mana from PaladinB
19:40'01.312 * gains 101 Mana from PaladinA
19:40'01.312 * gains 101 Mana from PaladinB
19:40'01.312 * gains 101 Mana from PaladinB
From what I can tell, JoW appears to be on a ppm system. I posted about it on the paladin forum: JoW proc chance but there doesn't appear to be a lot of interest in figuring out the mechanics of it.
I would say there's two contributing factors to JoW being so insanely good for hunters:
* We have the biggest base mana pool
* The ppm mechanics favour us greatly since we fire a shot on every gcd *and* get autoshots (often with large amounts of haste)
And yes, JoW from several paladins seems to stack, making it even more ridiculous.
Any chance they would move Hunting Party up the tree so MM hunters can grab it? They should get rid of Efficientcy anyway. No MM hutners use it. I find it ironic SV has more mana regen stuff than MM which uses more...
Any chance they would move Hunting Party up the tree so MM hunters can grab it? They should get rid of Efficientcy anyway. No MM hutners use it. I find it ironic SV has more mana regen stuff than MM which uses more...
Blizz wouldn't do that. Regardless of how you feel about efficiency it's readily available to MM hunters, and they also receive the replenishment buff from a SV hunter with points in HP.
Although you are right, efficiency is lack luster for 5 talent points, especially since it doesn't scale. I'd be nice if blizz would recognize this and change it to be more useful, like a % of your INT is mp5 or something, but I haven't heard of any plans to do anything with it.
With both speccs, sv & mm you spend a little over 2.000 mana on average every 10 seconds.
Thrill of the Hunt is a nice bonus, but at best a 20% flat mana conservatation (assuming 50% critrate raidbuffed). What makes sv the superior mana regen specc is explosive shot. It's capable of triggering judgement of wisdom three times, once per tick.
Making Efficiency a deep marksman talent with 3 points for 7%/13%/20% mana cost reduction would match Thrill of the Hunt.
And Blizzard should think about removing that judgement and recalculate the base mana costs of all single target spells regarding that change. Do they want to use us Viper during a "normal" bossfight with 5-6 minutes length at all?
efficiency [...] especially since it doesn't scale.
It's not true, it's scale with your mana pool.
If you have 1000 mana with a 100-mana shot, you do 10 shot without efficiency, 11 shot with, before you need regen mana.
If you have 10000 mana, it's 100 shot against 111 shot. Moreover, you regen faster with viper because SS cost less.
But i agree, it's not the best talent in the tree.
It's not true, it's scale with your mana pool.
If you have 1000 mana with a 100-mana shot, you do 10 shot without efficiency, 11 shot with, before you need regen mana.
If you have 10000 mana, it's 100 shot against 111 shot. Moreover, you regen faster with viper because SS cost less.
But i agree, it's not the best talent in the tree.
That's not efficiency scaling, that's your mana pool scaling. If you have 1000 mana and fire a 100 mana shot, efficiency saves you 10 mana. If you have 10000 mana and fire a 100 mana shot, it saves you ... 10 mana. Efficiency is a flat benefit, because it is based on the cost of shots, and the cost of shots doesn't scale upwards once you are level-capped.
Thrill of the Hunt is a nice bonus, but at best a 20% flat mana conservatation (assuming 50% critrate raidbuffed). What makes sv the superior mana regen specc is explosive shot. It's capable of triggering judgement of wisdom three times, once per tick
Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but doesn't explosive shot trigger Thrill of the Hunt on each tick? If you get three crits, you get back more mana than you spent. Explosive Shot has an absurdly high crit rate as well.
I agree that something should be done with Efficiency. On the spreadsheet I get about the same dps from 2 points in Rapid Recuperation as 5 points in Efficiency. If I get the killing blow on any adds, RR is very much superior. I realize RR is further down in the tree, but Efficiency can very easily be skipped so, ironically, Efficiency is an inefficient application of talent points.
Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but doesn't explosive shot trigger Thrill of the Hunt on each tick? If you get three crits, you get back more mana than you spent. Explosive Shot has an absurdly high crit rate as well.
Each tick of Explosive shot does trigger Thrill of the Hunt, but it only gives 1/3 of the mana cost back per tick.
With enough crit right now, a SV hunter wont go below 70% mana on a fight unless there is exessive use of volley. So even if they reduce our mana return in a raid, we still might not have to go in viper, at most maybe once per fight. They would have to nerf several things very hard to make us have to worry about mana even the slightest.
On the topic of the ammunition changes, another option would be having our weapons conjure ammo, similar to both Thori'dal and Netherstrand Longbow. That would reduce the need for both arrow and bullet upgrades from each reputation linked to a raid (and possibly even the need for said reputations) and there would be no RNG issues aside from the weapon drop itself. Get the weapon, it conjures a bundle of equal-level ammunition, then have at it.
This is interesting. The weapon would supply the ammo type but I still see a totem-like component that adds "value" either through a special effect or attribute bonus.
There are several benefits to this approach:
1) You wouldn't need to worry about getting a great bullet drop when you just happen to be using the bis bow or vice versa.
2) Repairs would be made against the "bonus item" in your inventory which would put it on par with throwing weapons.
3) Having a "bonus item" gives Blizzard a great deal of flexibility as to how to distribute said items either through rep, boss drops, crafting, whatever.
4) The "bonus item" will be upgradeable and swappable so we may choose how and when to use it.
Seperating the ammo from the effect solves several problems. What I don't see right now is whether it creates new ones. Thoughts?
JoW is a massive part of our mana gain though.
If they take JoW away from us we would probably be forced to go into viper.
I agree. While this is another "anecdotal" piece of information, I feel it is relavant because I have been put in the rather unusual (and uncomfortable) position of raiding WotLK 25 man content without ANY form of paladin in the group on a fairly regular basis. I found that I had to pop viper substantially more with no paladin in the raid granting JoW. The possible complete abscence of JoW would mean alot more viper time than I currently use, for my play style.
Most people get the best quiver they can right around the time they hit the required level for it, so the simplest thing to do is just give a passive haste rank x at the same levels you would currently get the next quiver.
For example, level 30 it would be the 3rd rank at 12% passive and by 55, would be the final rank at 15%, etc, you get the idea. That really leaves the haste as no different than now, so now extra balance or anything would even need to be discussed, its not like anyone 55+ is really not at 15%, even the most casual of the casual.
I suspect there will be a few nerfs thrown in too (not just for hunters of course, there's just not much for them to gain by listing potential nerfs along with the potential buffs/changes right now).
This is certainly true, from the meagre info they have released there has been nothing negative - which I am sure means that there will be plenty of nerfs for everyone in among the buffs they have let us see. So in terms of making sense of their goal in 3.1 changes I guess we have to wait and see the undoubted negatives that will come with some of these positives.
On the ammo front, I think it would be slightly unlike Blizzard to make bullets or arrows not standard/available to all (in terms of making them instance drops like librams). Quivers never gave a DPS increase over each other, only a convenience factor. They could potentially just give Hunters a haste passive racial when using ranged weapons and take ammo out of the game, not even as an equipped item, in the same way they changed throwing weapons.
I think Blizzards should just buff all hunter shots and get rid of 15% haste provided by the quiver.
This way, haste would actually be of some value in the future.
I agree. While this is another "anecdotal" piece of information, I feel it is relavant because I have been put in the rather unusual (and uncomfortable) position of raiding WotLK 25 man content without ANY form of paladin in the group on a fairly regular basis. I found that I had to pop viper substantially more with no paladin in the raid granting JoW. The possible complete abscence of JoW would mean alot more viper time than I currently use, for my play style.
I can attest to this as well. Before recently my guild had no Ret paladins, and our prot pally only judged light. I was definitely going OOM on most fights. Now that we have a permanent ret pally my mana bar is a joke.
I can see one of three things happening...
- JoW proc rate reduced for ranged attacks only. Down to 20-15%
- 2-5 Second internal cooldown on JoW procs
- JoW procs only Auto-attacks/shots. Not on specials.
First only hurts hunters, second and third would affect other classes. The problem is only blatently overpowered for hunters, I don't see it as much as a problem for other classes. But I don't really think blizzard will completely ignore JoW, I think something will have to change.
02/07/09, 12:54 AM
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