Even though I'm MM, I ran with two SV hunters who were pushing about 4.5k on Razorscale in Uld 25 last night. If you're having trouble keeping the rotation and your DoT up you should get an ability timer mod that will display how long your abilites have till they're off CD\about to expire.
You're forced to stand still the majority of the fight if you want to do any sort of real damage which screws you in malygos type fight...
The new talent only requires that you stand in the same spot for 6secs every 15 seconds. The buff doesn't go away when you move. I didn't find it very hard to keep up while moving on razorscale.
I'm not sure about you guys, but with all of these changes, it feels like my class has been ruined...
Killshot can't be macro'd now, so that adds another button to my rotation, black arrow is down too much to use it on any sort of trash and it seems like we get a large %of our damage from it, which sucks since you can't use it very often. You're forced to stand still the majority of the fight if you want to do any sort of real damage which screws you in malygos type fight, and Lock and Load procs are now negligible with how rarely they go off with the new system. I'm not sure how you guys are managing to do it, but survival doesn't seem to be too viable of a spec for raiding because of the add control and the movement it requires.
On fights that doesn't encourage trap dancing (maly), black arrow is actually an improvement. In trash pulls, black arrow is comparable to frost trap > LnL proc; you get an extra burst of damage every 24 seconds when theres 2 or less mobs alive. Anything more is just AOE dps.
Have anyone tested whether LnL still have an internal CD? i.e maybe a 0/5x/1x spec with readiness and Lock and load, would immolation trap tick > LnL > readiness > frost trap procs LnL back to back?
Last edited by kasanagi : 04/15/09 at 11:53 PM.
Reason: delete a bit too much...
On fights that doesn't encourage trap dancing (maly), black arrow is actually an improvement. In trash pulls, black arrow is comparable to frost trap > LnL proc; you get an extra burst of damage every 24 seconds when theres 2 or less mobs alive. Anything more is just AOE dps.
Have anyone tested whether LnL still have an internal CD? i.e maybe a 0/5x/1x spec with readiness and Lock and load, would immolation trap tick > LnL > readiness > frost trap procs LnL back to back?
What? I don't understand any of the Black Arrow things you're describing as positives except maybe for Maly, and even then Serpent Sting was still better. Serpent Sting used to proc LnL and that is spamable. Black Arrow is not spamable. I used to be able to load up AoE mobs with Serpent and get consistent LnL procs along with the initial frost trap proc.
What? I don't understand any of the Black Arrow things you're describing as positives except maybe for Maly, and even then Serpent Sting was still better. Serpent Sting used to proc LnL and that is spamable. Black Arrow is not spamable. I used to be able to load up AoE mobs with Serpent and get consistent LnL procs along with the initial frost trap proc.
Oop, I did forgot about Serpent Sting there : /.
But... on a given 3-4+ mobs pull, blowing 3+ GCD on stings (4 with frost trap), then using back to back LnL actually does more dps than volley in the span of the trash fight?
I can only mirror those that feel it is a little heavy to carry around.
On the 'hectic' adds on Razorscale I felt I was playing whack-a-mole popping whatever was in sight. As someone has said, it feels like Aff locks, but with the further limitation that we can't just stand back and DoT all the mobs up, or spam Corruption and reap the benefits in terms of Shadowbolts, since most of our abilities have cooldowns, Black Arrow in particular.
We are horrendous in these spreadout mob situations, or at least it feels like that. Pre-patch it was less problematic to me.
On single target managing the plethora of cooldowns isn't an issue, after the first 15 seconds it becomes smooth and fairly easy to manage. And that might in fact be the reason it seems so clunky on the adds as they don't often live more than 10 seconds after we begin to focus them. So throughout the addphase we struggle with our cooldowns, trying to balance them against increasing our DPS. Clearly we are a single target DPS class.
Quick napkin math on the changed rocket. Hand-Mounted Pyro Rocket now deals 1440 to 1760 Fire damage (Up from 1035 to 1265), cooldown lowered from 1 min to 45 sec. I used the newest version of the spreadsheet and it gives me 1agi = 1.5dps, so 20 agi enchant is 30dps. It is equivalent to dealing 1350 damage every 45 sec. The average damage of the new rocket is 1600 and it can also crit, so I think it's probably worth using over 20 agility enchant. It definitely isn't as good as other profession benefit, but how cool is it to shoot rockets at the raid bosses!
On live the damage has been increased but its still 1 min CD.
I can only mirror those that feel it is a little heavy to carry around.
On the 'hectic' adds on Razorscale I felt I was playing whack-a-mole popping whatever was in sight. As someone has said, it feels like Aff locks, but with the further limitation that we can't just stand back and DoT all the mobs up, or spam Corruption and reap the benefits in terms of Shadowbolts, since most of our abilities have cooldowns, Black Arrow in particular.
We are horrendous in these spreadout mob situations, or at least it feels like that. Pre-patch it was less problematic to me.
On single target managing the plethora of cooldowns isn't an issue, after the first 15 seconds it becomes smooth and fairly easy to manage. And that might in fact be the reason it seems so clunky on the adds as they don't often live more than 10 seconds after we begin to focus them. So throughout the addphase we struggle with our cooldowns, trying to balance them against increasing our DPS. Clearly we are a single target DPS class.
After a few attempts at Razorscale Ive concluded that indeed we are now a single target dps class with a surv build. There is a feeling of "hecktic akwardness" when dealing with multiple adds and any hint of mobility. I found that leaving BA out altogether and falling back to a more prepatch shot priority on add phases was more controlable. I understand that its a loss in dps to leave out a top prioritized shot, but leaving it in isnt benificial if your fumbling around like I am ATM. The add phase flowed better when I re-prioritized my shots. Maybe thats the point. Maybe BAs function in the priority sence is boss/add dependant. When faced with single target priority I could easily use the top priority rotation. Yes, there is still the issue of watching CDs more than I would like and taking my eyes off the fight, even with timer tracking add ons, but it isnt near the nightmare adds seem to create. I was at 3.4k-3.6k during single target boss encounters (10 man Ulduar) Not particurlarly happy with that as I was at the same dps hitting the target dummy with no buffs. Right now its a challenge, but thats what we want after all.
On a side note, and I apologize if this is in the thread, but I am at work and time is limited. Has anyone had the issue of Sniper Training procing and resetting continuously? I show it up all the time even if im in Dalaran doing some banking. It will count down to 1 then pop back to 15 and count down again.
On a side note, and I apologize if this is in the thread, but I am at work and time is limited. Has anyone had the issue of Sniper Training procing and resetting continuously? I show it up all the time even if im in Dalaran doing some banking. It will count down to 1 then pop back to 15 and count down again.
Yes, I get this. Its mildly irritating rather than game breaking, but one feels its missing an in-combat check.
On live the damage has been increased but its still 1 min CD.
Any Engineers made the switch?
Incorrect, the CD is properly 45sec on Live. I have switched and have incorporated it into my shot macros with a simple /use 10. When I get home i'll parse my combatlog from last nights 10 ulduar to see just how it did.
Incorrect, the CD is properly 45sec on Live. I have switched and have incorporated it into my shot macros with a simple /use 10. When I get home i'll parse my combatlog from last nights 10 ulduar to see just how it did.
Weird when I tried it (right after patch went live) it was only hitting for around 900-something for me. it looked like the old damage. Is it possible it was hotfixed after that?
Weird when I tried it (right after patch went live) it was only hitting for around 900-something for me. it looked like the old damage. Is it possible it was hotfixed after that?
That's possible, however I didn't really notice the dmg, too many numbers spamming my scrolling combat text lol. I'll edit my post with min-max numbers from my wws later tonight.
Here's the line from my Ulduar WWS last night. /use 10 in all the shot macros.
1% of total damage
48 hits (72%)
1662 average
2064 max
19 crits (28%)
2524 average crit
3089 max crit
3.6% mitigated (all through partial resist)
I did find it more awkward than I thought for it to have the "10-second dps burst cooldown" -- a couple times I missed using my clicky trinket because it was on rocket-cooldown when I hit the "blow everything" macro.
Here's the line from my Ulduar WWS last night. /use 10 in all the shot macros.
1% of total damage
48 hits (72%)
1662 average
2064 max
19 crits (28%)
2524 average crit
3089 max crit
3.6% mitigated (all through partial resist)
I did find it more awkward than I thought for it to have the "10-second dps burst cooldown" -- a couple times I missed using my clicky trinket because it was on rocket-cooldown when I hit the "blow everything" macro.
That's one advantage to having proc based trinkets heh.
After a few attempts at Razorscale Ive concluded that indeed we are now a single target dps class with a surv build. There is a feeling of "hecktic akwardness" when dealing with multiple adds and any hint of mobility. I found that leaving BA out altogether and falling back to a more prepatch shot priority on add phases was more controlable. I understand that its a loss in dps to leave out a top prioritized shot, but leaving it in isnt benificial if your fumbling around like I am ATM. The add phase flowed better when I re-prioritized my shots. Maybe thats the point. Maybe BAs function in the priority sence is boss/add dependant. When faced with single target priority I could easily use the top priority rotation. Yes, there is still the issue of watching CDs more than I would like and taking my eyes off the fight, even with timer tracking add ons, but it isnt near the nightmare adds seem to create. I was at 3.4k-3.6k during single target boss encounters (10 man Ulduar) Not particurlarly happy with that as I was at the same dps hitting the target dummy with no buffs. Right now its a challenge, but thats what we want after all.
On a side note, and I apologize if this is in the thread, but I am at work and time is limited. Has anyone had the issue of Sniper Training procing and resetting continuously? I show it up all the time even if im in Dalaran doing some banking. It will count down to 1 then pop back to 15 and count down again.
Most definately leaving out BA is important. I saved mine for the big Sentinels, but even then it was perhaps better served not to given that once I hadn't kept an eye on the harpoons and so Razorscale landed just as I had popped it. Felt rather dumb then. But even without BA Survival is only just managing, and the combat remains a stutter to me. I don't know about BM or MM on the fight, I guess I will have to ask the MM hunter that went in with me. However I do remember him being somewhat overwhelmed at times as he laughed about forgetting abilities etc. Might come from the important aspect of Serpent Sting, making retargeting slow and heavy if you want to do any sort of respectable DPS on such adds.
I'm actually pretty happy about Sniper Training. I knew it would tick like that, so I feared I would get highly annoyed by it (OMG is it going to blink? Is it going to stand out in bright colours?), but I happily forgot all about it. It is a nicely bland bufficon, yet it is instantly obvious if you look at the buffbars. This was something that surprised me in a very positive way.
Incorrect, the CD is properly 45sec on Live. I have switched and have incorporated it into my shot macros with a simple /use 10. When I get home i'll parse my combatlog from last nights 10 ulduar to see just how it did.
Its 1 min in the engineering page, but 45 secs when actually tinkered.
I got an average damage of 1918 in Naxx10 tonight, i.e. 42.6 DPS. I have it bound along with KC to Explosive Shot.
Only did Ignis and X-52, have been rather enjoying the new shot mechanics as Survival. DPS seemed up across the board.
Switching to adds on X-52 and Ignis didn't feel particularly bad (I did miss the added range from Hawk Eye though, especially on the pre-ignis trash that knocks you out of range...), used black arrow when it cooled down if the target I was on was going to live a reasonable amount of time.
New LnL most definitely doesn't have a cooldown, had many back to back procs.
Barely noticed Sniper Training all night, don't think it fell off much if at all.
After doing Ulduar for the past few days ( Freya, Mirmiron, Vezaxx and Yogg-Saron left ) I really feel that the Surv rotation is getting a bit too clunky. I can still produce 5500 dps, but at the cost of almost dieing from a number of AoE abilities.
However, for the last night's raid I made BM my 2nd spec. And tbh I got amazed by how easy I could produce the same results that I had as Surv or even higher in some cases, even though I still had my Surv equipment ( agility gems and enchants ).
So in the end, Surv looks great on paper, but actually getting everything right at least while learning bosses is really stressful and frustrating at times. Does anyone else feel like this? Or is it just me failing to time my shots... I am really confused atm.
Edit: The people who are doing WWS didn't do it after the raid but probably I can provide some WWS parses a bit later.
I've really been enjoying MM so far in Ulduar. The plethora of instant shots makes the add fights much easier. Only problems so far have been running oom if our Ret dies, which he often does.
I think it's tough to go by the spreadsheet when Survival is so clunky and RNG-based. Supposedly Survival should be a few hundred DPS ahead of MM for me, but I don't think very many people can perfect their Survival rotation during a real Ulduar encounter. There's too much going on to be able to stare at your cooldowns like you can in Naxx.
I've really been enjoying MM so far in Ulduar. The plethora of instant shots makes the add fights much easier. Only problems so far have been running oom if our Ret dies, which he often does.
I think it's tough to go by the spreadsheet when Survival is so clunky and RNG-based. Supposedly Survival should be a few hundred DPS ahead of MM for me, but I don't think very many people can perfect their Survival rotation during a real Ulduar encounter. There's too much going on to be able to stare at your cooldowns like you can in Naxx.
I have to disagree with this. Maybe I am just very used to SV but I found MM to be just as clunky as SV. "Perfecting" a rotation for either spec is still quite possible with a good player. In Ulduar I can't think of anything that would be holding a SV hunter back more than MM when it comes to managing CDs. Power Auras makes managing CDs like BA and ES as well as keeping SrS on the target a lot easier. It works wonders for Sniper training as well.
I have to disagree with this. Maybe I am just very used to SV but I found MM to be just as clunky as SV. "Perfecting" a rotation for either spec is still quite possible with a good player. In Ulduar I can't think of anything that would be holding a SV hunter back more than MM when it comes to managing CDs. Power Auras makes managing CDs like BA and ES as well as keeping SrS on the target a lot easier. It works wonders for Sniper training as well.
I'm curious as to how you think that MM is as "clunky" as SV, in terms of rotation. The rotation is the exact same one that you used for SV prior to the 3.1 patch. The only difference is that you no longer need to pop SrS after its initial application. From that point on, it is SS spam with your intermitent AS/MS and CS.
Lets see, Survival right now has a 24 second cooldown (BA), a 21 second DoT, a 10 second cooldown and a 6 second cooldown.
Marksman has a 10 second cooldown, a 9 second cooldown (I'm assuming CS gets glyphed?) and a 6 second cooldown.
I wouldn't call MM's rotation/priority the exact same as SV, even when you ignore BA, but I'll agree that it's not as complicated as SV.
If you had said BM, then I would have agreed with you, as BM has a 21 second DoT, a 10 second cooldown and a 6 second cooldown to work with.
Actually current thinking in Beastmaster thread is to drop the SrS glyph for Hawk (Hawk, SS and BW glyphs) so its a 16 second, 10 second (if used) and 6 second CD.
Last edited by Nooska : 04/17/09 at 1:44 PM.
Reason: typo
I think it's going to be really hard to compare dps between builds until they fix all the bugs. There's a few nasty bugs affecting Surv atm, mostly related to ES and BA.
Or if they're not bugs, then the spreadsheet will have to be updated and we can recheck all the numbers.
04/15/09, 5:00 PM
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